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Property Boundary Confusion

Started by chpalmer, February 20, 2017, 01:52:43 PM

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chpalmer

I am hoping I can get some help understanding the painted markings on some of my trees. I am buying a property in Ohio and there is a lot of confusion about the boundary. I know the only way to really know is to get it surveyed - and that is happening before closing. However, I would like to get a better handle on the topic before the survey because the purchase contract is written as price per acre and the difference could be large.

The property is bounded on 3 sides by state forest. The Ohio DNR (ODNR) has yellow painted boundary markings on trees. They run in a line as you would expect - and some trees have two or three markings to note turns in the boundaries.

I have three sources of information for the boundary. (1) google maps plots a boundary and this was used by the realtor to estimate the land size. It seems this is the most useless. (2) there is a survey on record with the county that was done in 1978. I would presume this is the most accurate. (3) the yellow painted boundaries on trees painted by the state. A lot of these markings actually seem to coincide with old logging trails as well as stone "farm" walls.

The issue I am having is that the yellow tree markings generally follow the shape of the 1978 survey - however they are often off by 1-200 feet, and in some cases off by 800 feet. These paint marks look pretty fresh. Since these are the boundaries between state land and the land I am in contract on - there should be no other parcels or boundaries that I am being confused by. If the new state markings are right the land in question will likely be about 20 acres larger than I bargained (and budgeted) for.

Does anyone have any experience with this kind of discrepancy? Again - I know I need to rely on a new survey once its done - but any insights I could get on the issue would be greatly appreciated. If the size is really that much different than as advertised I would like to start negotiating a new deal with the owner now.

Any thoughts you have would be very much appreciated.

  

  

 

Ron Scott

Confusing! Ask the local Ohio DNR office what their yellow markings are for? Might be a timber sale or cutting unit boundary.

Only buy property after you see a registered certificate of survey for it so you are sure of the property boundaries and acreage  being purchased.
~Ron

chpalmer

Quote from: Ron Scott on February 20, 2017, 04:19:35 PM
Confusing! Ask the local Ohio DNR office what their yellow markings are for? Might be a timber sale or cutting unit boundary.

Only buy property after you see a registered certificate of survey for it so you are sure of the property boundaries and acreage  being purchased.

Thank you very much, Ron. Yes, I will not complete the purchase until the survey is understood well and it matches the technical data (on file somewhere I presume). I was wondering if they were parts of a cutting boundary but found it curious that it would seem to match my eastern bounds but be way far off for my norther bounds and slightly off for my western bounds.

The markings are so far off on my northern bounds I am guessing that somewhere the ODNR has different data than the 1978 survey. I have called and emailed the ODNR but it being a holiday and all I have not heard from them. I suppose I could give them until an actual working day to get back to me ;)

In the mean time I am just curious if people have seen this before or have insights.

curdog

I'd wait until a survey is done.  I helped mark boundary for a state agency years ago as a temporary employee, and no matter how hard I tried some of the lines were incorrect. And we were payed just above minimum wage and some of my coworkers didn't care if it was right or not.  I know some of our state agencies contract the boundary painting and the easy to get to places had nice fresh paint and the harder to get to places..... not so much. With years and years of many different people painting lines, it may be right, maybe not.

chpalmer

Quote from: curdog on February 20, 2017, 07:56:47 PM
I'd wait until a survey is done.  I helped mark boundary for a state agency years ago as a temporary employee, and no matter how hard I tried some of the lines were incorrect. And we were payed just above minimum wage and some of my coworkers didn't care if it was right or not.  I know some of our state agencies contract the boundary painting and the easy to get to places had nice fresh paint and the harder to get to places..... not so much. With years and years of many different people painting lines, it may be right, maybe not.

curdog - thanks for your thoughts and insights. In your experiences, did you ever see lines that were off by that much? I realize while you were marking trees you were possibly unaware of discrepancies.

Oddly enough my northern boundary *should* be on a flat part of the property. whoever marked it darn near climbed a cliff to mark the *wrong* bounds. I was up there last night trying to scout for coyotes and could barely climb it and I am in good shape.

If the state thinks thats where the boundaries are and does not cut inside of the boundary then all the better for me. The only thing it really changes for me is whether or not I can build tree stands there and of course the price I will have to pay.

Ron Scott

chpalmer,
Is the timber type and size different on each side of the boundary lines? Is the second picture a painted yellow steel pipe? Corner marker?
~Ron

chpalmer

Quote from: Ron Scott on February 20, 2017, 08:55:50 PM
chpalmer,
Is the timber type and size different on each side of the boundary lines? Is the second picture a painted yellow steel pipe? Corner marker?

It is a steel market filled with concrete. It does correspond with a corner on the survey. That is one in particular is along the eastern side of the property where the yellow marks and old survey SEEM to agree. Paint markings on the trees are consistent throughout all sides of property in age, size, type, color, etc.

As for the trees - great question. They seem to be the same in species and size/age. The only exception is on the property I am buying the owner had it very select cut a few years back. You can see a few very large stumps on every acre but thats it. Its actually quite surprising the trees they passed up during the select cut.

BradMarks

I would suggest that the 1978 survey, registered with the county, is correct.  Painted trees, flag lines, fence rows amd such are all conjecture, and not part of the survey.  I personnaly have taken field notes from old 1890 surveys and been able to "recreate the lines", taking into account the variance in magnetic declination.  Out west that declination has changed dramatically over the last twenty years.  Maybe not so much in the interior, I don't know.  For example, a 1 degree change over 1 mile can result in a line being off 50+ feet if it were measured without the correct declination.  And funny how some of those large trees in the "gray area" get marked by adjacent landowners, sort of a first come mentality. Just my thought, good luck on your purchase,

Ron Wenrich

When I was laying out timber sales for private landowners, I would search adjoining deeds at the courthouse.  Sometimes there may be discrepancies between the lines.  But, most times you'll find the adjoining property to have a line that matches pretty well.  In PA, we don't have the section corners and there are lots of turns and bends.  I would also search the property deeds back several owners.  Sometimes you'll find deed descriptions change, and that is when there was another survey. 

To find the line, I would start from a known corner, and simply do a compass and pace to tie into the other corners.  Along the way, I would look to see if there are variations in timber from one side of a line to another.  Different land uses cause different outcomes from one side to the other.   Lots of our woodlots were fields at one time.  Some have been abandoned for over 150 years.  That will yield differing size and stand composition from one side to the other.  I've found stone walls are not a good indicator of line.  It depended on how well the original owners got along.  Some are inside the line, and some are right on the line.

Surveyors can locate lines, but I have had some problems with them.  If the original corners can be located, then it is just a matter of having them connect the dots.  But, I've found some surveyors will take a deed, and run by those metes and bounds.  Where I have a problem is when they establish a corner away from the obvious original landmark. 

I had a property where the landowners had it surveyed.  We walked around the property and when we came to an obvious stone pile, they remarked that they didn't know what that stone pile was, but they established the corner in a different spot, as that's what the deed called for.  The original deed was set out in 1791 and they were using those metes and bounds.  The problem was they were using 20th century technology on a deed written with 18th century technology.  I also run up against that with a state property.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

chpalmer

So I spent some time talking with the Service Forester responsible for my county. When I told him where the subject property was he said something to the effect of  - Oh, Brush Creek State Forest is notorious for its markings. He looked up his boundary maps and it seemed to jive with the 1978 survey I sent him.

Now - then there is the issue of the road access to the property being on the wrong side of the survey but on the right side of the marked trees. I told him I need to make improvements to the road and wanted to know if it was permissible, etc. The Service Forester is relatively new to his post so went away to talk to the people that manage the that particular forest. I should know more tomorrow about to what extent I can control aspects of the road on the land in question.....

First image shows markings on the west side of the road. Second image shows the boundary line in red and the road just to the left side of the line.

The 

  



 

Ron Scott

You will want to be sure that you have suitable access to the property. If the access road is on state land, you should get a special use permit or easement from them that allows you to improve and maintain the road for suitable vehicle access during all seasons. It appears that you are on the right track to insure this.

Is the 1978 survey that you have, a registered survey done by a professional land surveyor. If so, then that would be correct.
~Ron

Magicman

This topic prompted me to contact RMS today to obtain a perpetual easement.  I have no landlocked property, but terrain wise it would be very painful to not have logging access through them.  That is the way it has always gone, but the property is for sale.  My contact said "no problem" since they are a timber land managing company and understand the need for access.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

nativewolf

Do make sure that the registered survey AND the deed indicate an easement.  That needs to be in place before you spend money. The iron stake in the ground is going, almost surely, to be an accurate property line marking.  Blazes on trees...not so much but more of an indicator and the state agencies typically are very conservative, if you see a blaze you can be pretty darn sure you are looking at the state forest.  Better that they are too conservative than the opposite.  Best thing possible is to treat the govt forest manager like any other good neighbor, find time to walk the boundary, share issues.  If they have poachers, etc they will let you know of problems if you have good relations.  Those guys are always understaffed so be patient.

Magicman, RMS is about as big as they get.  Did they flip that property?  They are the king of HBU, taking a big chunk of land and parceling out the higher value easy to access stuff to increase value. 
Liking Walnut

DDW_OR

other things to consider:
WATER Rights
MINERAL Rights

Timber Rights?

"let the machines do the work"

Magicman

nativewolf, this was International Paper Co. land.  When IP folded, RMS came into the picture to sell off the IP property.  It is for sale and vastly overpriced but even so, a buyer could come along and that could be a problem 25 years from now.  I had never given it any thought, but now is the time to think.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

livemusic

What is this RMS that is being mentioned?
~~~
Bill

Magicman

Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

nativewolf

Quote from: Magicman on February 25, 2017, 08:14:28 PM
nativewolf, this was International Paper Co. land.  When IP folded, RMS came into the picture to sell off the IP property.  It is for sale and vastly overpriced but even so, a buyer could come along and that could be a problem 25 years from now.  I had never given it any thought, but now is the time to think.

They are very very good at getting the highest value for small pieces of land, shocking sometimes what people pay them.  RMS is normally simply a management entity for passive money like pension funds, or high net worths like the pritzker (hyatt hotels) family or the gates family.  Anyway maybe different topic...I can go on a tangent. 

For our friend in Ohio I'd second the recommendation to be sure about mineral rights
Liking Walnut

pappy19

The 1978 registered survey is the key document and another survey should not be needed or required. Only need to have another surveyor mark the boundary with a large "B" towards the inside of the property. Once the boundary is marked per the registered survey, then have DNR come out and remove any marked trees or assumed boundary marks.

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Remle

" The 1978 registered survey is the key document and another survey should not be needed or required." Not quite so fast !! IF the survey AGREES with the ORIGINAL DEED of the property, then you are good. Ever hear the faze, Give an inch and some will take a mile ? A competent surveyor will check to see if it does reflect the original deed, however their are those who will survey what the owner claims to own, file a map and think all is good till the errors come to light by an adjoining property survey. Best to go back to the beginning and check.. you can go to the county seat and review the history of this parcel as it was past along to each new owner. I'm not saying you have a problem but one neighbor's building is 2/3 on my property and the neighbor on the other side septic leach field is partially on my property..
In case you are wondering my winter time job for 10 yrs and full time job for 5 yrs was surveying highway ROW and new ROW acquisition. Although I never acquired my land surveyors license the fact remains, you cannot have more than the original sale of the property allowed nor should you be forced to take less ..

dgdrls

A competent surveyor will put the pieces together,  subject parcel
and the adjoining ones as well.  I'm not saying they'll survey all of the adjoining lands, but they will
and should find sufficient field evidence to prove or dis-prove the boundaries located on the ground
with sufficient checks to defend their work.   Since this is an early PLSS State I suspect there will
be additional requirements to their work.

Have the Title work updated to be sure you get all you should and know if rights have been
sold/deeded off.  Make certain the search goes back far enough to provide a clear picture
of where the parcel came from.

Also, for your leisure reading
http://www.oldfortsteuben.com/admin/data/files/TheAmericanSurveyor_FabricOfSurveyingOhio_December2004.pdf

Ohio was a test State for the Public Land System

best
D

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