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Looking for suggestions on log decks.

Started by Bibbyman, December 02, 2004, 05:47:19 PM

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Bibbyman

I've long had the idea that we need a chain feed log deck.  It's a part of our operation that maybe could be worth the cost of the investment.  But I don't have any practical experience with in-feed log decks.  

Is there anyone out there with a stationary band mill operation with a powered chain-feed log deck?

Some of the problems we'll face is that we don't have a concrete floor in our sawmill shed or into the log loading area.  And,  I can see that it may be a problem being "on dirt" as it'd be difficult to hold in place.  Second,  it's hard enough work to clean all the loose bark and debris from under the mill.  I'd suspect a log deck would soon be buried under junk too.

Size?   I'm thinking 12'

Number of srands?   I'm thinking 4..  Two about 30" apart (for short logs) and the outer two about 8' apart.

Power?  AC Motor,  hydraulic? Forward and reverse?

Log kicker?

Chain size?

Maybe the whole thing on skids so it could be pulled out to clean out debris?

Brand?  Model?

I'd appreciate any thoughts or experience on chain log feed decks you can give.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

BBTom

I got no experience Bibby, but here are my thoughts.   I thinkyou have the four strands worked out pretty good,  on the inside two, I would fit them just inside the WM loader arms.  I would make mine about 2 feet high and use the WM loader to pull them off the deck, no need for a kicker.  I see large ( maybe 12") square tube for the bottom to give you floatation  with the top being just wide enough for the sprocket and chain to run inside for the return.  Make sure there is good square stock full width of the chain rollers to roll on welded to the top for chain guide and smooth pulling.  Size of chain would be as big as affordable.  I don't know why it could not be on skids, so the loader could move it.  In your operation, I think electric would be best way to go.  
Good luck, maybe someone who has experience will chime in and let us know the good, the bad and the ugly of these ideas!!!  
2001 LT40HDD42RA with lubemizer, debarker, laser, accuset. Retired, but building a new shop and home in Missouri.

bull

electric/hydralic --- snow plow pump or dump piston
bedrails 10x10 oak on a wooden post deck frame.
pick up a couple old Corn chopper heads for your chains and all the gears and sproket are included. Handymans special.

I havent had a chance to build mine yet, but it is in the plans for the future, junk choppers are a dime a dozen.....
you could also try  a couple old manure spreaders rip down the sides and use the bed chains / weld on some stub fingers and replace the straight PTO w/ and offset PTO from
an old crimper will work.
 Off set shaft with chain drive sproket..... I better get started I've got all this down back and Im scaring my self as I sit here designing this in my head ::)

Ron Wenrich

You don't really need to have concrete under your log deck, as long as there is pretty good support.  I've seen some down on dirt, but it was under roof, so there wasn't a water problem.

I've run Melott and Jackson log decks.  I really liked the Jackson.  It was a 2 strand deck with a stop & loader run by hydraulics.  They use a 100H roller chain (I think).  If you put a cant on the chain, it will move faster than the chain.  I imagine they could build one with more strands.  

You could use a deadman for the fourth strand.  We have a 10' wide deck and pull 24' logs into the mill without too much trouble.  

I guess you can build a deck, but with the price of used stuff right now, it seems to be more cost effective to buy something used.  It depends if you value your time more at the sawmill end or the equipment fabrication end.

All the decks I've seen are run by hydraulics.  Better power and control.  With the right valve, you can reverse it.

An elevated deck will be easier to keep clean, and you won't have any bells or knots dragging.  Are you planning to run them to your log loader or right onto the mill?
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Jeff

Our log deck can be cleaned two ways. We have a big hollow log we keep for this. Put a fork in one end of it and just use it to push the debri out where you can scoop it up.

We can also disconect the hydraulics and move the whole deck. The deck used to sit on dirt, but about ten years ago we poured two strips of cement 18 inches wide and 8 foot long for it. One for the back legs and one for the front legs.

The biggest thing I can say in the design of a logdeck would be make sure the railtops have replacable wear strips. All the dirt and grime from falling off the logs, then getting pushes along the rails will quickly wear through any steel. Our decks have rectangular tuping rails, toped with channel iron for tracks, and in the channel, there is that white polyvinyl or what ever its called.

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

GF

I am working on one myself, I will be using 16ft lengths of railroad track, I then plan on welding some short sides on the top so the chain will stay in the center, machine a long shaft with keyways and chain sprockets on the ends mounted in bearings driven by a hydraulic motor.  

I will run mine from the hydraulic spool valve on the sawmill control panel, since it was a sectional valve I added another, that will run the hydraulic motor to power the chain.

Not sure how the WM hydraulics are configured or if you can tap into there hydraulic circuit, could put a valve in with 12v solenoid to operate it and just mount a switch on your panel operate the valve, this would allow you to run it foward or backwards.  Just a thought.  Good luck.

Bibbyman

I just remembered ...

I have a 2hp 220v single phase "power pack" I think pumps 3-4GPM at 2000 psi.  Plus a two-way valve... ???

Could be enough to pull a short deck?  
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

GF


gmmills

Bibbyman,

   I have a 2 strand 20' deck that is hyd powered. It's height is just below the mill beds. It is 6' wide between the chain centers and is driven from the rear. At this width, the loader arms will clear the deck rails to load the logs on the mill, no need for a stop and load. Hyd power is supplied by the mill and is plumbed with quick disconnects so the deck can be moved to clean under.  I will get some pics the first part of the week. I hope I can get them posted properly.

     Gary
Custom sawing full-time since 2000. 
WM LT70D62 Remote with Accuset
Sawing since 1995

J_T

Just help build a descrambler  we used a 3ph reduction gear box and got it slow . We got the chain and sprockets from Brown Machinery & Supply Inc 1-800-748-9801. We set it up to dump a 4x4 on a convor then sutt off with a reset in side for the next one . You could power the outside chains seprate to save ware .
Jim Holloway

J_T

Ops forgot the square tubing was an old sine from a service station . The one we copied the man bought used for around 9 grand ours 15 hundred bucks Course thare is more to a descrambler than a deck.
Jim Holloway

Bibbyman

Thanks guys for the help so far.

gmmills,  I'd sure like to see the pictures of your log deck.

How do you handle logs shorter than 6'?

Can you give details and pictures of how you tapped into the WM hydraulic system?  (Sounds like a good post for the Useful sawmill mods topic.)
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Percy

Heya Bibby
Im thinkin of doing the same(building a live log deck) and was wondering the same thing(getting the shorties to the mill). I dont cut shorties very often but would sure get swamped as soon as I wasnt capable :D :D I still havent got that problem "Thinked out" yet. Perhaps a four strand deck with the two middle strands really close together(3 feet) and the other two about 10 feet apart or would there be a balance problem  with the 8-9 foot swelled butts???
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

GF

Might keep the log deck far enough apart to drive a smaller tractor between them with a front end loader for the small logs.  The furthest part of the deck from the mill would require two bearing and a small shaft on each deck instead of one long shaft through all of them, the side nearest the mill could stil use a single shaft to drive all the chains.

You could also build the deck low enough to straddle with a larger tractor when you need to load shorter logs.  Just some ideas.

Ed_K

 I'm thinkin of using an old chuckwagon. Going to put a hydrolic motor on the pto input shaft. Cut off sideboards, cut down the headboard, and use in feed mode to feed logs to cordwood processor, or back up to mill and reverse to unload logs to mill.
 Ed
Ed K

UNCLEBUCK

I would like to see gmmills set up too ,it sounds very simple. I dont have live deck , after sawing awhile I know that the trailer house I beams I installed are ok but it would be nice to be able to metal detect on a certain part of the skidway instead of getting off tractor for each log and then back on etc.. I suppose a thick rubber cow mat bolted somewhere under each rail that could be flipped over the top of deck could be a good place for metal detection and not interfere with any kind of set up
UNCLEBUCK    bridge burner/bridge mender

gmmills

Here's the pictures of my deck
                                          [img]

                                          [img]

                                          [img]

                                          [img]

                                          [img]

Custom sawing full-time since 2000. 
WM LT70D62 Remote with Accuset
Sawing since 1995

gmmills

Let's try this          
                                                              
     
                                        
                                        

                                        

                                          




Custom sawing full-time since 2000. 
WM LT70D62 Remote with Accuset
Sawing since 1995

gmmills

Bibbyman,
  For the hydraulics,I split the log loader circuit into two circuits with the DC solenoid valves.One circuit for the deck. The other for the loader.This way I can control the deck and the loader with the console mounted lever. The DC valves are controled by the toggle switch I mounted on the remote console. Flip the switch one way you have hyd flow to the deck and a flip the other way you have flow to the loader. I got the power for the switch from the HYD solenoid inside the pump box. I also fused the power wire right at the soleniod lug.
    I don't cut logs any shorter than 6'. IF I needed to cut shorts I would either completely  remove the deck and use the yard loader to load the mill or possibly  span the deck rails with loose 2x's edge butted and load the logs on them

     Gary
Custom sawing full-time since 2000. 
WM LT70D62 Remote with Accuset
Sawing since 1995

Bibbyman

Thanks!

Did you build this log deck or was it "store bought"?
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Percy

Heya gmmills.
Happennin deck. ;D Has it ever powered out from too many logs?? Having it low to the ground and being able to move it easily is a great idea. I hadnt considered that. It solves my shortie problem strait away. Thanks. Great pics.
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

gmmills

Bibbyman,

  Originally the deck was a 10' long 4 strand lumber deck built by Mellot Bros. Bought it at an auction in Tenn. last April. It was totally disassembled in a pile. Along with it in the same lot was an extra pallet of deck chain , 25 hp electic motor and two extra main shafts with sprockets. Bought it all for $1650.00

Percy,

   Thanks.  It will power out if you load it full of 12' and longer oak logs . It does fine if you keep it about 2/3 full of those size logs. I really think  that 16' long would be the optimal length.

   Thanks again ,
                   Gary

        
Custom sawing full-time since 2000. 
WM LT70D62 Remote with Accuset
Sawing since 1995

Bibbyman

Does anyone out there have a Wood-Mizer LD12 or LD20 deck?   I remember we had a new member that had an LT300 mill.

Does anyone else out there have any other deck set up to a Wood-Mizer LT40 mill?

Inquiring minds wants to know. :)
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Bibbyman



Got a junk 16' 4 strand log deck with no power.

Got a 60/1 gearbox with 1750 rpm motor,  will turn 29RPM.

The # 88 log deck chain has links 2.75 from pin to pin.

The log chain sprockets has 14 teeth.

The drive cog has 32 teeth #100 roller chain size.

Each turn of the drive shaft will move the chain 3.2 feet (2.75*14/12).

What I don't have is a cog for the gearbox.

Looks like if I use a cog on the gearbox with 16 teeth,  I'd end up with a chain speed of 46.5 ft./min.  Or would be able to unload the whole 16' feet of deck in a little over 20 seconds.

29*32/16*2.75*14/12=46.5 ft./min.

Looks like if I use a cog on the gearbox with 12 teeth,  I'd end up with a chain speed of 34.9 ft./min.  Or would be able to unload the whole 16' feet of deck in a little over 30 seconds.

29*32/12*2.75*14/12=34.9 ft./min.

My problem is....  I have no idea if that's too fast or not fast enough.

Anyone have any experience with log decks and how fast or slow should they run?

How's my math??
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

deadeye

l've always thought about using a old manure spreader. take the sides off and put your electric motor on the pto shaft.  you would then have a three speed log deck with little work involed.

D._Frederick

bibby,

I don't see the stop and load arms that the log decks have to load one log at a time. I think that you will have problems of getting only one log at a time to feed if your deck is too fast. I don't think that I would go any faster than 15 seconds per log to load or you will loose control.

Ron Wenrich

I'd run it at a slower speed.  Ours runs probably at 30-40 seconds to go 20'. 

You should have some sort of a stop on the end.  Otherwise, if you get a log that goes crooked (due to a knot or sweep), you won't be able to straighten it out very well.  With a stop, you just keep running until everything equals out.

Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Bibbyman

Thanks for the input..

Yea,  I know I need a stop/loader.   I'll have to design and build (or have it built).

Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Brucer

Quote from: Bibbyman on April 20, 2005, 06:23:16 PM
How's my math??

Right on.

Three different ways to decide on the best speed.
1) The walking test. Walk along the length of the deck at a speed you'd be comfortable with. Time yourself.
2) A systems approach. Incorporate an log kicker into your loader, and wire up the chain drive motor so the deck stops whenever a log hits the kicker. Then your deck only has to move fast enough to stage a log just as the previous log comes off the mill (Maybe a little faster in case you aren't getting the logs to the deck as fast as Mary is sawing them  ;D)
3) The engineer's approach. What horsepower is your motor? How much weight will you have on the deck at one time? That may be what limits your speed. I've got a design catalogue here if you want to do even more math  :D.

If your motor's big enough and you get the chain moving too fast, you could kick the lugs on the chain right under a log. 15 seconds to stage a log may actually be a bit high. 2-3 feet per minute??
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

beenthere

My interpretation of the 15 seconds was to move the log the length of the 16' deck in 15 seconds.  That would be close to 1 ft per second.   

(Not sure what the Brucer question was about 2-3 ft per minute).  ???
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

catfish

Hey Bibby, when we were running an LT 40 we bought a used 10', two chain Mellot deck powered by a 5hp hyd. unit. If you can find one I think you will agree with me that it is one of the best investments you ever made. Ours was on dirt and took about one hour each Fri. to clean out.
catfish farmer, Hurdle mill.....need more cedar!
(I been livin here 65 years,ain't no metal in them trees)
( You can have that 75 year old Pecan tree if you will pick up all limbs and grade my yard back)

pigman

Here is my home made and handy log loading deck.

Stats on deck-16ft long
                       76in wide
                        moves at 10ft per minute
                        1-1/2 hp motor
It is on the back side of the mill. I did this so I can stack boards to be edged on the loading arms and to keep from walking around my board conveyor when loading logs. I do not have stops. I have to manually let the bridge down to load logs.
Most of the deck is made from an old forage box mechanical parts. The problems I have had with it is short logs falling between the chains. I plan to add  two more chains in the middle. I turn the motor on with a switch near the front of the mill  and works fine for loading the mill, but is a nuisance when loading the deck. I plan on getting one of those remote switches used on dust collectors so I can move the logs foward while loading the deck.
The size motor I use will move a full deck of logs at the speed I use, but if you speed the deck much you will need more hp. For an old man like me that is fast enough, but for for someone like Pro Sawyer Mary you might have to speed the chain up to keep up with the sawyer. ;)
Things turn out best for people who make the best of how things turn out.

Bibbyman

Thanks guys. 

Beenthere..   I think Brucer was suggesting a speed of 2-3 ft / minute would be "more better" than the 35 ft/ minute I calculated.  At that speed,  it'd take about a half a minute to advance the next log to the stop/kicker.  I could live with that as it could be done while and between sawing the log that's on the mill.

The 35 ft/minute rate is as slow as I can go with the 60/1 gearbox and cog I got and smallest cog I can get on the gearbox.   However,  that is based on running a 1750 rpm motor direct drive or 1=1.   I thought I'd use V-belt pulleys on the motor and input side of the gearbox.   I could gear down another 4/1 or something like that and get down to the 10 ft / minute range. 

I'm thinking of tapping into the Wood-Mizer hydraulic system to supply the hydraulics for the stop/loader.   I'm thinking of leaving the existing loading arms and system as they are and using a couple of valves and quick compliers to divert HD to log deck loading arms – when in use.

The old Link-Belt gearbox is rated at 1 hp at 1750 rpms and a service factor of 1=1.  The output shaft is 1-3/8".  I think it should be heavy enough – it weights enough!..  But for what I paid for it,  I can chance it.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

D._Frederick

Bibby,

I would put a jack-shaft in the output to reduce the speed by a 1/4, also that way you would not exceed the "hanging weight" ( pulling force) of the output shaft. I ment 15 seconds for the loading cycle of the log onto the mill, which may be a little long after you learn to run it.

Bibbyman

Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

Rockn H

Oh, I know this one! I know this one! ;D :D ;D
A jack shaft is an idler shaft with one ratio sprocket or pulley for power input and a different ratio sprocket or pulley for power output. You use it to change ratios.

http://www.malarkeyengineering.co.uk/images/jackshaft2.jpg

Bibbyman

Oh!  Now I get it.  Just another shaft with a big and small cog so as to make another reduction in the overall gear ratio.

Thanks... :P
Wood-Mizer LT40HDE25 Super 25hp 3ph with Command Control and Accuset.
Sawing since '94

smwwoody

Hi Bibby

Just a few thoughts on the log deck.  first make sure you can run the stop and load at the same time as the chains.  this makes life alot easyer when the logs arn't trimmed real good.  also make sure the lift arms on the stopandload go well below the grade of the chains.  both of these will help load crooked and notty logs.  look at wood mizer's deck it is a top notch unit other than thier lift arms don't go low enough below the grade of the chains.

anothe thing to think about is how you are going to deal with a log when Mary dumps one inbetween the deck and the mill.  It will happen >:(.  If you leave you loader on this should solve that problem. 

Another problem to deal with is how to get a junk log off the mill when the deck is full.

If you arn't going to bolt it down make sure it has enough counter weight to offset heavyest log you will ever have out on the end of the stopand load arms with an empty deck.

I was cutting 14'  Oak 12 X 12's a few weeks ago and since they are so heavy I didn't want to send them up the LT 300's convayer and onto the transfer deck so I had the loader opperator load one log at a time then when it was done I would use the chain turnner to send the cant back onto the stop and load arms then flip it onto the deck run the chains backwards the loader opperator would dump an new log in front of the cant and take the finished cant away.  all this weight on the end of the stop and load arms on an empty deck started to pull the lag bolts out of the floor on the back end of the deck.

Woody
Full time Mill Manager
Cleereman head rig
Cooper Scragg
McDonugh gang saw
McDonugh edger
McDonugh resaw
TS end trim
Pendu slab recovery system
KJ4WXC

Ron Wenrich

FWIW.  Timed our deck at 35 sec for 20'

A real handy item is an overhead winch.  It helps move those pesky logs that don't want to cooperate.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Brucer

Quote from: Bibbyman on April 21, 2005, 09:58:18 AM
.. I think Brucer was suggesting a speed of 2-3 ft / minute would be "more better" than the 35 ft/ minute I calculated. At that speed, it'd take about a half a minute to advance the next log to the stop/kicker. I could live with that as it could be done while and between sawing the log that's on the mill.

That's what I was thinking. It's not a bad speed for advancing logs, but if your deck is empty and your sawyer is waiting for you to load it, that's a 5 minute wait for the log to traverse the deck. One of you probably couldn't live with that  ;D. 10 ft/minute does sound more reasonable.

QuoteI thought I'd use V-belt pulleys on the motor and input side of the gearbox. I could gear down another 4/1 or something like that and get down to the 10 ft / minute range.

Don't forget -- mechanical drive trains are sized for torque, not power. If you gear down the gearbox input by 4:1, you'll increase the torque by a factor of 4 (the slower it goes, the bigger it's gotta be).

Quote from: D._Frederick on April 21, 2005, 10:44:41 AM
I would put a jack-shaft in the output to reduce the speed by a 1/4, ...

That's the safest option. Gets expensive though -- extra sprockets, big bearings, etc.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Luke_Eames

A blast from the past  :D  I did a search for hydraulic gear reducers and motors for log decks and I came across this post. 

Biddy, were you able to get your 60:1 gear reducer to work?? I've been looking at 60:1 gear reducers but I'm having trouble figuring out a good gear reducer and motor pair that can run off my LT 40's hydraulics....
Wood Mizer LT-70 Super Wide
Wood Mizer EG200
Cat IT18

Beavertooth

Bibby,
  I have a 20ft Woodmizer deck that I used with my LT70. I had it mounted on a timber mat on one job for 1 1/2 year and just anchored to the gravel ground with rebar with nuts welded on them for 1 year on another job. I had a couple extra side supports out to each side to hold up any long 24ft logs that I cut that may have tried to tip to the heavy end when putting them over on the mill with the tipper and that worked great, was all the extra support I needed. It will hook right into the mills hydraulics. You would have to buy kit with extra switch to run tipper. If I remember right the LT40HD can run it. May have to be a Super but not sure. I had a 6ft extension on my mill that I had added a contact strip to. I ran a string from switch that activated the chain on deck to foot pedal that I built so I could be pulling the logs forward while I was cutting so when I was thru with one log the next one was already in place to put on mill. I have been thinking seriously about selling mine. I would say it is in very good condition or better. It does need new polystrips for chain to ride in. I think they are $300 plus for the set. The deck new is over $11000 after taxes. I am not sure what I would take for it. It can be hauled on a 16ft trailer. It really works great and it is nice to be able to use the hydraulics on your mill instead of having to have an extra setup. I sent you a personal message but you may have not gotten it. I kept it loaded full with 16 to 20ft logs all the time and it would pulled the full deck forward with no problem. Let me know if you  may be interested.
2007 LT70 Remote Station 62hp cat.

paul case

since he posted this originally in 2004?  think it is safe to say he wont want your log deck, since he bought a baker several years ago and has recently stopped sawing full time. Just saying.

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

Luke_Eames

Beavertooth,
Would you be able to share what size hydraulic motor you have on your deck and if you have a gear reducer, what the ratio is?
Thanks,
Luke
Wood Mizer LT-70 Super Wide
Wood Mizer EG200
Cat IT18

Beavertooth

Luke,
It just runs off of the hydraulics on the sawmill (mine is LT70). I don't know what the gear ration is. Small one on hydraulic motor on deck and big one on deck. 
                                    Craig
2007 LT70 Remote Station 62hp cat.

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