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Maple syrup 2017

Started by celliott, January 20, 2017, 06:51:24 AM

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Corley5

We've got one short 3/4" mainline left to run first thing in the AM and we think we'll get the wet/dry hung up tomorrow.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Engineer

I'm going to tap my maples for the first time in eight years.  Got to get a new pan made for my 55-gallon drum arch.  Probably going to do about 20 taps, used to use old-school metal spiles and buckets, this year it will be a small plastic spile, a short length of tubing to a 5-gallon bucket w/ lid.  I can only boil on weekends so I have to collect for the week.  Hope the weather cooperates.

Chuck White

That works pretty good, Engineer!

If the tree is big enough, put in additional taps, proportional to the size of the tree, and put the end of the line in a 5-gallon pail!

We see quite a few of those setups in yards in this area!
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

celliott

Engineer, unless you have stuff already, try 3/16" tubing for that, it should work really well.
Chris Elliott

Clark 666C cable skidder
Husqvarna and Jonsered pro saws
265rx clearing saw
Professional maple tubing installer and maple sugaring worker, part time logger

Corley5

  We got the wet/dry hung up today.  I'm going to work on the shack the next few days as our advisor is advising others until Tuesday ;) 8)  Tuesday we hope to get the main lines tied into the wet dry and start hanging the 5/16" laterals on Wednesday.
  I've been meaning to get some pics but we're pretty busy during the day  ;D and it's been foggy, snowy and generally crappy for photos as well as working outside :) :)
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Don_Papenburg

What is a wet dry?
I just tap walnut trees may have as many as 12 taps this year.
Frick saw mill  '58   820 John Deere power. Diamond T trucks

Corley5

  The wet dry is the main lines that carry vacuum and the sap.  The top line is the vacuum line and the bottom is for sap.  They are connected where the 3/4" mainlines enter the wet dry.  Having a separate line for sap and vacuum makes the vacuum transfer more efficient.  I'll get some pics when we start plumbing them together :)
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

celliott

Quote from: Corley5 on January 27, 2017, 04:34:39 PM
    Having a separate line for sap and vacuum makes the vacuum transfer more efficient.

It also greatly increases the carrying capacity of the size pipe used for your liquid line. For example, a 3\4" mainline is rated for up to 200-250 taps. Make that a 1" air line over 3\4 liquid line and you're good for about 1000 taps. The liquid line can be 100% full and vacuum still transferred to mainlines with the air line.
Checking vacuum leaks becomes easier as well because you can isolate mainlines that have leaks, VS a mono-pipe system where one leak affects the whole line.

How are you tying your mainlines in Corley? We use stainless steel pipe fittings to create a manifold that T's into the air, liquid, and mainline, with ball valves and a vacuum gauge.
Chris Elliott

Clark 666C cable skidder
Husqvarna and Jonsered pro saws
265rx clearing saw
Professional maple tubing installer and maple sugaring worker, part time logger

celliott

We are almost 1\2 tapped. Think the crew did about 2800 today, averaged about 400 per person. That's with fixing alot of down lines and squirrel chews  >:(
We are on pace to get all tapped in record time this year. We usually haven't even started tapping yet, and we've got about 13,000 done.
Chris Elliott

Clark 666C cable skidder
Husqvarna and Jonsered pro saws
265rx clearing saw
Professional maple tubing installer and maple sugaring worker, part time logger

Corley5

That's what we're using minus the vac gage.  Our mains are 3/4" and the wet dry is 1 1/4".  We'll have more than 500 taps in this lot.  My son and I did an estimate last fall and figured there may be as many as 750.
  The wet dry will be extended to take in the other woodlot for the 2018 season.  There's another 1,000 or so over there.  We're going to slick out some veneer logs there first.  The lot we're working in now has been tapped previously and has very few veneer candidates.  The other lot is different  ;D 8)
  We're considering a remote monitoring system.  Leader is the U.S. dealer for the Magika systems. 
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Corley5

Anyone have sap ladders in their bush ???  We've got one spot that needs one.  It'll serve 30 or 40 taps.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Gearbox

They work just fine . add extra tee's in case you flow more than what 12 lines can handle . My brother has 2 ladders on one main . we had to go with 3 stars top and bottom . I think he is close to 200 taps on that line . He maintains 25 to 26 inches if we can control the squirrel bites .
A bunch of chainsaws a BT6870 processer , TC 5 International track skidder and not near enough time

Corley5

  We've been carrying shotguns while working to deal with the red squirrels.  I hear squirrels are a real problem especially after the first season.
  Knocked off a BIG porcupine the other day  :(  Judging by the size of the quills it was sporting I'm sure it was the one my dogs tangled with last fall.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Chuck White

I don't know what it is, but squirrels like to chew on the plastic lines, fortunately, we don't get much damage from them!

About two more weeks and we'll be tapping!

Always anxious at this point, to get started!

Happy sugaring, guys!   8)
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

celliott

We don't get much squirrel damage in out woods thankfully, but we get enough. We did an installation earlier this year, and I guess after we left about 2000 taps worth of lines were on the ground. Critters chewed every single end hook off and dissapeared with them. Coyotes and bears bit mainlines, it was a mess!

We're tapping a new woods right now. Around 7000, all fresh trees :) makes for fun drilling. Except the terrain is crazy steep. Like 150% slope steep. I still was able to tap 500 trees today although it felt like I did 700 or 800.

Bring on the sap!
Chris Elliott

Clark 666C cable skidder
Husqvarna and Jonsered pro saws
265rx clearing saw
Professional maple tubing installer and maple sugaring worker, part time logger

Joe Hillmann

This year I am thinking of setting up a small pipeline system.  I am planning on doing it a cheaply as possible and that means a homemade sap releaser and vacuum pump.  The releaser I think I have figured out I don't know if my pump will be have enough vacuum.

I am converting a 1 cylinder engine into the pump and it should be capable of around 20-25 cfm and around 20 in/hg.  Is that enough to use on a pipeline?  I know ideally you want closer to 27in/hg at the pump but will 20in/hg be enough?  Also will the cfm be enough?

GAB

Quote from: Joe Hillmann on February 03, 2017, 09:58:01 AM
This year I am thinking of setting up a small pipeline system.  I am planning on doing it a cheaply as possible and that means a homemade sap releaser and vacuum pump.  The releaser I think I have figured out I don't know if my pump will be have enough vacuum.

I am converting a 1 cylinder engine into the pump and it should be capable of around 20-25 cfm and around 20 in/hg.  Is that enough to use on a pipeline?  I know ideally you want closer to 27in/hg at the pump but will 20in/hg be enough?  Also will the cfm be enough?

For ten taps or less you should be ok.  For 10000 or more taps you will need a larger vacuum pump.
The long and short of it is there is insufficient info to properly answer your question.
Gerald
W-M LT40HDD34, SLR, JD 420, JD 950w/loader and Woods backhoe, V3507 Fransguard winch, Cordwood Saw, 18' flat bed trailer, and other toys.

Joe Hillmann

Quote from: GAB on February 03, 2017, 10:16:06 AM
Quote from: Joe Hillmann on February 03, 2017, 09:58:01 AM
This year I am thinking of setting up a small pipeline system.  I am planning on doing it a cheaply as possible and that means a homemade sap releaser and vacuum pump.  The releaser I think I have figured out I don't know if my pump will be have enough vacuum.

I am converting a 1 cylinder engine into the pump and it should be capable of around 20-25 cfm and around 20 in/hg.  Is that enough to use on a pipeline?  I know ideally you want closer to 27in/hg at the pump but will 20in/hg be enough?  Also will the cfm be enough?

For ten taps or less you should be ok.  For 10000 or more taps you will need a larger vacuum pump.
The long and short of it is there is insufficient info to properly answer your question.
Gerald

We are looking at doing 80 to 100 taps on the pipe line system.  There is probably 25-30 feet of drop from the top of the hill to where our tank and pump would be mounted.  The mainline would be about 500 feet with laterals set up 5 or 6 trees on each branch.

I don't really know much about pipeline systems other than what I have read(I hope to be able to tour one locally to see how it is done in person in the next few weeks). 

It is only a hobby so I have a hard time justifying even the cost of the tubing and fuel and for sure couldn't justify the cost of buying a proper pump and releaser.

For the releaser I plan to build something very similar to this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfmadtYqWew
only one valve and the rest is done with counterweights.

There is no electric where I am tapping so my plan is to have the pump powered by a gas engine.  The idea is to go out to the woods around 11:00am, fill the gas tank with 5 hours worth of gas, start the engine and let the vacuum run until the engine runs out of gas and shuts off.  Then the next day do the same thing and while I am there empty the tank and bring the sap home.

As I said I am new to using a pipeline so I don't know if any of my ideas will work.

celliott

Joe Hillman, a couple thoughts.

For the amount of taps you are suggesting, instead of a gas powered pump and homemade releaser, you might look into a sap puller diaphragm type pump. It can run off electricity (generator) requires no releaser, and is very maintenance free. Can use up to ~ 1200 taps and will pull 25" of vacuum.

Another option for your size operation, is to use 3\16" tubing just gravity feed. Don't even use a mainline, just run all your tubing lines from your tank into the woods, 20 or so taps per line will work good. No pumps at all, no mainline, no wire, no wire ties, and I'd wager the 3\16" tubing would perform well enough like that you would be swimming in sap!
This would also be by far your cheapest option. You're into it a few rolls of tubing, fittings and droplines. That's it. This is what I would recommend unless you have plans to eventually expand to upwards of 500 taps.

What do you have for evaporation equipment?
Chris Elliott

Clark 666C cable skidder
Husqvarna and Jonsered pro saws
265rx clearing saw
Professional maple tubing installer and maple sugaring worker, part time logger

Joe Hillmann

Quote from: celliott on February 03, 2017, 04:56:45 PM
Joe Hillman, a couple thoughts.

For the amount of taps you are suggesting, instead of a gas powered pump and homemade releaser, you might look into a sap puller diaphragm type pump. It can run off electricity (generator) requires no releaser, and is very maintenance free. Can use up to ~ 1200 taps and will pull 25" of vacuum.

Another option for your size operation, is to use 3\16" tubing just gravity feed. Don't even use a mainline, just run all your tubing lines from your tank into the woods, 20 or so taps per line will work good. No pumps at all, no mainline, no wire, no wire ties, and I'd wager the 3\16" tubing would perform well enough like that you would be swimming in sap!
This would also be by far your cheapest option. You're into it a few rolls of tubing, fittings and droplines. That's it. This is what I would recommend unless you have plans to eventually expand to upwards of 500 taps.

What do you have for evaporation equipment?

I have thought of going with 3/16 tubing.  But my understanding is that it needs 30 or so feet of drop from the last tap.  At most I have 30 feet of drop from the first.

For an evaporator we have a flat pan that is about 26x32 on an arch made from an old heating oil drum and a blower.

celliott

It's not a need, exactly. It will perform better with more drop, IE more natural vacuum further up your tubing line, but it will certainly still work (and work well) with less than 30ft of elevation drop. Vacuum will be highest at the last tap, and zero at the end, no matter what. Just maintain some downward grade all the way to your tank and it will be fine, and still outperform 5\16 tubing. You'll be swimming in sap.

If you really want to get into a tubing system on the cheap, this is the way to go. If you don't have any tools and stuff, get the Dominon and Grimm (D&G) soft blue tubing. You will be able to put together all your fittings without any special tools and make your droplines. Heat (or give it a quick chew) the end and push them together, easy. Would require a second set of hands for droplines, but better than buying a $250 tubing tool for 100 taps. No mainline means no high tensile wire, wire ties, pipe fittings, anchors, saddle fittings and tools, etc. etc.
Otherwise, leader 30p 3\16 comes in an 800ft roll (vs 500ft) for about the same money. But way stiff for droplines and needs a tool to put fittings in.

Just my 2 cents though. We do tubing installations for people. Probably installed 25,000 taps of 3\16 tubing this season. We're sold on using it for vacuum pump systems and gravity systems.
Chris Elliott

Clark 666C cable skidder
Husqvarna and Jonsered pro saws
265rx clearing saw
Professional maple tubing installer and maple sugaring worker, part time logger

Joe Hillmann

Quote from: celliott on February 03, 2017, 09:33:47 PM
It's not a need, exactly. It will perform better with more drop, IE more natural vacuum further up your tubing line, but it will certainly still work (and work well) with less than 30ft of elevation drop. Vacuum will be highest at the last tap, and zero at the end, no matter what. Just maintain some downward grade all the way to your tank and it will be fine, and still outperform 5\16 tubing. You'll be swimming in sap.

If you really want to get into a tubing system on the cheap, this is the way to go. If you don't have any tools and stuff, get the Dominon and Grimm (D&G) soft blue tubing. You will be able to put together all your fittings without any special tools and make your droplines. Heat (or give it a quick chew) the end and push them together, easy. Would require a second set of hands for droplines, but better than buying a $250 tubing tool for 100 taps. No mainline means no high tensile wire, wire ties, pipe fittings, anchors, saddle fittings and tools, etc. etc.
Otherwise, leader 30p 3\16 comes in an 800ft roll (vs 500ft) for about the same money. But way stiff for droplines and needs a tool to put fittings in.

Just my 2 cents though. We do tubing installations for people. Probably installed 25,000 taps of 3\16 tubing this season. We're sold on using it for vacuum pump systems and gravity systems.

Do you have a preference for which taps to use with 3/16 tubing?

Joe Hillmann

Quote from: celliott on February 03, 2017, 09:33:47 PM
No mainline means no high tensile wire, wire ties, pipe fittings, anchors, saddle fittings and tools, etc. etc.


When using 3/16 how do you keep it tight?  Just put a tap in the tree, put the tubing on and stretch it tight to the next tree?  Do you need it so tight so there is no sag where sap can collect or doesn't it matter much?

Will it still work if there is only a couple feet of drop from the tap closest to the barrel and the top of the barrel?

celliott

Joe,

For spouts we are using H20 brand and they are a softer material, they seal really well under vacuum. We replace spouts every year. CDL makes a polycarbonate clear spout we liked last year.

As far as keeping tubing tight, yes it needs to be tight enough to not sag between trees. The way we run tubing, start at one end (probably the tank end) put the roll of tubing on your left arm andspin it/unravel it as you go up the hill. Try to go back and forth between trees to keep tension on the line, you might bump against some non maple trees to prevent long spans. If you still find it is loose, when you cut in droplines, simply cut out what slack you need to to prevent sagging.

So, I would stretch a wire above your barrel/tank. Attach a connector with hook to the end of your tubing. Unravel/spin the tubing roll on your left arm as you work up the hill, going back and forth between the maple trees so the tubing stays against one side of the maple, keeping tension on tue tubing as you go. When you get to the last tree, wrap once around the tree and cut your tubing, attaching an end hook fitting. You have just run a tubing line. Pick the next end tree and work down the hill. I'd shoot for a minimum of 10 trees, upward of 20 per line is fine.
Sorry if I'm not explaining real well. I do this all the time so it makes sense to me, but my explanations might be lacking. It'd be way easier to show it. If you weren't so far away if come help ya!

Yes it will work with just a few feet of drop. Think of it simply as water running downhill. As long as a downhill grade of some degree is maintained all the way to the tank, sap will come out the end. With less slope it becomes more important to prevent saggy spots. If you have a 45 degree slope, a little sag doesn't matter, it'll still make it downhill. 2-3%? Tubing must be tight and not saggy. However the nice thing about 3/16 is it does not need to be super tight because it's lighter and won't sag under it's own weight as bad as 5/16 (which can be run VERY tight).
Chris Elliott

Clark 666C cable skidder
Husqvarna and Jonsered pro saws
265rx clearing saw
Professional maple tubing installer and maple sugaring worker, part time logger

Joe Hillmann

Quote from: celliott on February 04, 2017, 06:01:53 AM
Joe,

For spouts we are using H20 brand and they are a softer material, they seal really well under vacuum. We replace spouts every year. CDL makes a polycarbonate clear spout we liked last year.

As far as keeping tubing tight, yes it needs to be tight enough to not sag between trees. The way we run tubing, start at one end (probably the tank end) put the roll of tubing on your left arm andspin it/unravel it as you go up the hill. Try to go back and forth between trees to keep tension on the line, you might bump against some non maple trees to prevent long spans. If you still find it is loose, when you cut in droplines, simply cut out what slack you need to to prevent sagging.

So, I would stretch a wire above your barrel/tank. Attach a connector with hook to the end of your tubing. Unravel/spin the tubing roll on your left arm as you work up the hill, going back and forth between the maple trees so the tubing stays against one side of the maple, keeping tension on tue tubing as you go. When you get to the last tree, wrap once around the tree and cut your tubing, attaching an end hook fitting. You have just run a tubing line. Pick the next end tree and work down the hill. I'd shoot for a minimum of 10 trees, upward of 20 per line is fine.
Sorry if I'm not explaining real well. I do this all the time so it makes sense to me, but my explanations might be lacking. It'd be way easier to show it. If you weren't so far away if come help ya!

Yes it will work with just a few feet of drop. Think of it simply as water running downhill. As long as a downhill grade of some degree is maintained all the way to the tank, sap will come out the end. With less slope it becomes more important to prevent saggy spots. If you have a 45 degree slope, a little sag doesn't matter, it'll still make it downhill. 2-3%? Tubing must be tight and not saggy. However the nice thing about 3/16 is it does not need to be super tight because it's lighter and won't sag under it's own weight as bad as 5/16 (which can be run VERY tight).

I think that was a pretty good explanation.  I think I understood it.

Just to make a couple things clear.  From the line you ran you then cut it (with it still under tension) put a T in it and run a tubing/dropline from the T to the tap in the tree?  Once I have as many trees tapped on the line as long as everything is tight that's it?

How do you attach the wire to the end of the line near the barrel?

The end farthest away from the the barrel is completely blocked off so no air can get in there? Correct?

Once I get to the top of the hill can I keep going with the pipeline being pretty flat as long as it goes down hill at the other end?

To get more slope can I drill into the trees much higher than I normally would if I was using buckets?

Do you set up the droplines so they and the taps are also helping support the line?

These may be stupid questions but since I have someone answering them I'm going to ask rather than guessing or assuming.

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