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Anyone else get stiffed on orders?

Started by redprospector, January 19, 2017, 08:54:15 PM

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redprospector

It's only happened a few times in the last couple of months, but that doesn't seem to make me feel any better about it. I had a guy order 10 6x6x10' Ponderosa Pine posts, he was supposed to pick them up Tuesday. I finally got ahold of him on the phone today, and found out that I have 10 6x6x10' posts for sale.  :( The last one was much worse though, it was $3000.00 of 2x8x8' Ponderosa Pine.  :'(
Do any of you get this kinda stuff? What do you do to stop/deal with it?
Do people not hold any stock in their own word any more?  ???
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

Deese

Happened once to me, but thankfully it was a super duper small order. Just enough to build a few picnic tables. I left it stacked outside for 2 weeks and eventually gave it to another guy who was picking up some lumber.
2004 LT40 Super 51hp w/6' bed extension
Cooks AE4P Edger
Cat Claw sharpener/Dual Tooth Setter
Kubota svl75-2 skidsteer w/grapple, forks, brushcutter
1977 Log Hog Knuckleboom loader/truck

4x4American

It's happened to me, too, but not yet on a large order (kow).  People that I don't really know I try to get a deposit of half down first.  Once someone puts $ into something, they're more apt to come and get it.  I have 1mbf of hardwood 8x8s and 6x8's that have been in my way.  The guy kept making his order bigger, no problem, but, I need half down before I go any further.  So he came and cut me a check, and dropped off his trailer with a log on it to saw and life is good.  Where you can, try to get $ down first.  Some people just seem like they're serious and I have been lucky.  It'll happen though, just a matter of when.
Boy, back in my day..

Ricker

Has happened a couple times.  I have found that when those customers come back for wanting something else a couple months later and I tell them sure I will saw that for them but a deposit of what the total bill is will be required they get the hint that I ain't happy with them.

redprospector

I figured a deposit would help. Just wasn't sure how many did it that way. Didn't used to be that way so much.
If any of these folks come back wanting something, I think it'll be a 100% deposit plus what their previous order was.
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

Dave Shepard

1/3 or even 1/2 down if the customer is in question, and 100% payment before anything leaves the yard. If it's not a stock item, assuming you do stock lumber, then non-refundable. You can be as flexible as you want, or need, to be. Anytime you lose out, that comes out of your profit.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

redprospector

Quote from: Dave Shepard on January 19, 2017, 10:04:50 PM
1/3 or even 1/2 down if the customer is in question, and 100% payment before anything leaves the yard. If it's not a stock item, assuming you do stock lumber, then non-refundable. You can be as flexible as you want, or need, to be. Anytime you lose out, that comes out of your profit.
I like the 1/3 down idea.
Not only does it come out of my profit, it takes away from my stock of logs, and could keep me from having the particular species, or length of logs to fill a paying customers order, causing me to have to buy a load of logs I wouldn't have needed, or loose an order.
I'm not stocking anything right now. I'm just trying to get this new venture on its feet and going. This kind of stuff doesn't help much.
On the bright side, I had a customer come by yesterday and pay for an order that he's not supposed to pick up until next week. He said he didn't want me to get worried and sell it to someone else.  ??? I guess it happens on both ends of the stick.
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

DGK

All customers that I have not done business with in the past, have to pay a 50% non-refundable deposit on custom orders. In my experience, I have found that it is the person that orders just a few pieces of something custom, and needs it immediately, has the higher probability of not picking it up. :-)
Doug
Yukon, Canada

LT40G38 modified to dual pumped hydraulic plus, HR120 Resaw, EG200 Edger, Bobcat S185,Bobcat S590, Logosol PH260M3, Sthil MS660's, MS460,MS362's MS260, Trailtech dump trailer, F350, F700 Tilt-Deck log/Lumber Hauler, JD440B Skidder, Naarva S23C Processor

ozarkgem

Setting on a pile of cedar that some people ordered last Oct. If it was not something I could use or resell I would have taken a deposit. They have bought twice from me in the past.
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.

Peter Drouin

I only have 2 customers that can take anything here and pay later.
All others pay when they take it. ;D
Never been stiffed.
I have a lot of lumber on hand. Most times I have it. But one customer wants 210 1x8x16. I have 120 so I will cut the rest with no money up front. Then cut more for the next customer.
If he doesn't come then I have a bunch of 1x8x16.
Some customers want to pay ahead, before they take the wood. I don't do that. Pay when you take the wood. Easy for me less confusing,  :D

The only thing that I get is a guy will want say 100 - 1x12x8 I cut them and dead stack them. Don't want to take out the ones I have in the shed. ;D
So when I get the pile done, He calls and needs 10' and not 8'. I don't care, He just spent more money. I look at the dead stack and knowing I have to handle all the wood again.
So now It all gets stuck.  :D :D :D ;D
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

WV Sawmiller

   Been pretty lucky so far. Only time I truly got stiffed was my fault as I offered to sell a young man some lumber on credit for use building primitive furniture. Not a big order and I figured it was like grub staking an old fashioned gold miner. The guy seemed to be doing okay with his venture then he got sick and had surgery and I never heard more from him. He did not ask for credit - I offered it to help set him up.

   My policy on special orders is generally to get a deposit in cash or they can leave a trailer here as collateral. Previous comments about the customer having some skin in the game is correct. The customer is much more reluctant to cancel when it is going to cost him money too.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Sixacresand

I been conditioned to sticker and cover lumber as I mill it unless unless the customer's  pickup is backed up to the end of the mill. Some customers wait days or weeks or never to come get it. 
"Sometimes you can make more hay with less equipment if you just use your head."  Tom, Forestry Forum.  Tenth year with a LT40 Woodmizer,

redprospector

Ok, that's it. 50% up front it is.
I'm going to re-produce a sign that my Dad made in the 60's, with one line added. It will say...
IN GOD WE TRUST!
ALL OTHERS PAY CASH!
SOME WILL PAY 1/2 UP FRONT!
;)
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

bedway

I had a woman ask me to turn 4 oak legs for a table top she had. They were quite elaborate and included the complete lower assembly to accept the top. Stain and finish were applied per her direction. End result, the units been setting in my loft for ten years. That's the only time ive been stiffed in 15 years doing this work. I don't have a lot of respect for people like that.

redprospector

Quote from: Peter Drouin on January 20, 2017, 06:31:05 AM

The only thing that I get is a guy will want say 100 - 1x12x8 I cut them and dead stack them. Don't want to take out the ones I have in the shed. ;D
So when I get the pile done, He calls and needs 10' and not 8'. I don't care, He just spent more money. I look at the dead stack and knowing I have to handle all the wood again.
So now It all gets stuck.  :D :D :D ;D

Quote from: Sixacresand on January 20, 2017, 10:08:08 AM
I been conditioned to sticker and cover lumber as I mill it unless unless the customer's  pickup is backed up to the end of the mill. Some customers wait days or weeks or never to come get it. 

I'm learning this one real quick. Where I'm at it's warm enough Year around to grow mildew/mold in a dead stack. Had to sticker about 4000 bd. ft. Of 2x8's that was supposed to be picked up dead stacked, and I've got a bunch of 1" stuff that needs to be edged that I need to peel apart and sticker. But that one's my fault. I may have to bleach it.  :-\
How do you charge for stickers, and labor when it was ordered dead stacked? Or do you?
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

WV Sawmiller

Quote from: redprospector on January 20, 2017, 10:33:53 AM
How do you charge for stickers, and labor when it was ordered dead stacked? Or do you?

   Either let the customer dead stack it as he picks it up or tell him he can keep the stickers for $__ each. My price list includes stickers for sale if people want them. You might charge him a deposit for them and return his deposit if/when he brings back the stickers.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

azmtnman

Quote from: redprospector on January 19, 2017, 08:54:15 PM
found out that I have 10 6x6x10' posts for sale. 
Just out of curiosity, what do you charge for pondo 6x6's?
  Big box stores want $5.20 a linear ft for untreated 6x6's. I've priced mine at $4.00 but haven't tried to advertise any yet.
  I'm trying to get my outfit running to do what it does (not-for-profit) and need some income from it to cover costs.
1983 LT 30, 1990 Kubota L3750DT, 2006 Polaris 500 EFI, '03 Dodge D2500 Cummins powered 4X4 long-bed crew cab, 1961 Ford backhoe, Stihl MS250, MS311 and MS661--I cut trees for my boss who was a Jewish carpenter!

JRWoodchuck

You wouldn't be able to order anything off the internet or go to any store with out leaving 100% of the money with them. So I think 50% up front is more than fair. I wouldn't expect to walk up to a business and not give them something securing my interest in their product. Anyone that is serious about what they are asking about will not have any issue with that.
Home built bandsaw mill still trying find the owners manual!

Bruno of NH

I have not been stiffed yet But i have a yard full of a customers lumber that should have been picked up this summer.
Its a pain to plow around it and i'm sick of moving it >:(
Won't happen again i know that :)
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

redprospector

Quote from: WV Sawmiller on January 20, 2017, 11:35:55 AM

   Either let the customer dead stack it as he picks it up or tell him he can keep the stickers for $__ each. My price list includes stickers for sale if people want them. You might charge him a deposit for them and return his deposit if/when he brings back the stickers.
So, a 1x1x4' sticker is .3333 bd. ft., and lets say 1" lumber is a buck a bd. ft. That's $0.33 each. Would you charge the customer $0.33 per sticker, or would you have an up charge for being a pain in the butt?

Quote from: azmtnman on January 20, 2017, 12:30:09 PM
  Just out of curiosity, what do you charge for pondo 6x6's?
  Big box stores want $5.20 a linear ft for untreated 6x6's. I've priced mine at $4.00 but haven't tried to advertise any yet.
  I'm trying to get my outfit running to do what it does (not-for-profit) and need some income from it to cover costs.
I'm getting .80 a bd. ft. for pine under 8".

Quote from: JRWoodchuck on January 20, 2017, 01:17:20 PM
You wouldn't be able to order anything off the internet or go to any store with out leaving 100% of the money with them. So I think 50% up front is more than fair. I wouldn't expect to walk up to a business and not give them something securing my interest in their product. Anyone that is serious about what they are asking about will not have any issue with that.
I guess I was trying to be too trusting. I can go into most of our local places and order without deposit, but I've dealt with most of them for years. The ones that want a deposit, or paid up front doesn't bother me, so it only makes sense.
Quote from: Bruno of NH on January 20, 2017, 01:46:02 PM
I have not been stiffed yet But i have a yard full of a customers lumber that should have been picked up this summer.
Its a pain to plow around it and i'm sick of moving it >:(
Won't happen again i know that :)
Yep, that's what I'm doing today...moving stuff around that hasn't been picked up. I'm with you, won't happen again.
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

WV Sawmiller

Red,

   As to the question of sticker prices I sell mine for $.25 each and sell my poplar lumber for $.75/bf so that seems in line with what you suggested. I am phasing out my 4' stickers and in the future all will be 3' because stacks that wide are easier for me to handle (plus I have access to good 3' square pallets I use for stacking). Of course most of mine, and those of many others here on the FF, are a by-product of edging and while the lumber is salvaged it still takes time and handling to make them. Depending upon how bad you wanted them back you could jack the price up or keep it low.

   I would tell my customers when they place the order to provide a truck or trailer for dead-stacking or that it will be stickered and they will be responsible for buying them or returning them to get their deposit back.

   Getting the deposit is fair and reasonable. Even if I have the deposit I'd suggest, unless the customer is there when sawed, stickering the lumber to prevent mildew and a dissatisfied customer.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

redprospector

Ok, so nothing leaves the yard before it's paid for. Everything coming off the saw gets stickered, customer unstacks and leaves my stickers, or pays a deposit for them. At least a 50% deposit on all custom orders.
The only question unanswered is "don't people hold any stock in their word anymore?". I guess that one is self evident, or we wouldn't have to get a deposit before we cut.  :o
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

WV Sawmiller

Quote from: redprospector on January 20, 2017, 08:11:16 PM
The only question unanswered is "don't people hold any stock in their word anymore?". I guess that one is self evident, or we wouldn't have to get a deposit before we cut.  :o

Red,

   Some do, some don't. I don't know about your customers. Most of mine are pretty rural and I think they tend to be more attuned to keeping their word than more urban customers. Not meaning to put down city folks but I think living in a rural environment forces a closer and more personal relationship. No doubt there are big exceptions to this generality so don't hold me to close to this opinion. Also what is the average age of your customers or more precisely of the ones who stiffed you? I suspect age is a factor too. (Another unproven opinion.)
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

longtime lurker

For me this is a mostly a non issue... maybe I'm lucky but I think its more about how we operate...

There's no such thing as a custom size for me, except the real long stuff which is only cut to order. But "regular" size and length dimension lumber we just cut it, and if this guy dont take it someone else will. If a size is a bit odd... say 2¾x7¼... I cut the next regular size up being 3x8, charge them for that, then charge them to resize it back to spec.

What I wont do is cut weird sizes to order. Because if I get stuck with it I'd have to size it down to the next regular size, and any shorts/ out of grade etc is also in a weird size. That means work, and work I dont get paid for at that.

All of my regular builder/cabinetshop/merchant customers all have accounts with us. I've had to wait to get paid often, but thats because my customer has had to wait to get paid by his customer kinda thing. It hurts. Account customers are my cash flow nightmare even when I get paid on time - buying logs today to get paid in three or more months is the bane of my existance.
Walk ins we work the same principal as everybody else... pay before you leave the store.

I'll ask for a deposit if its a big job or a lot of sizes that might not shift in a hurry if the sale fell through. I dislike having to do so but I can only carry so much and things are lean here right now.

This week we quoted a largish dunnage job with a tight deadline through one of our timber yard customers. Mid Feb. delivery, he pays on the 30th day without fail, I got logs and a sawmill...no worries.
A framing order thats a payment on delivery order. Guys bought a few boards from us before, now hes enlarging the house by a lot. Standard sizes mostly, couple of big long beams in it but they'll shift if it falls through or I can cut them back to 2 regular lengths... no worries.
And 30,000 tomato stakes, 1"x 1"x 5'...and that one I want a deposit for because its going to suck up a whole heap of sawlogs meeting their schedule and while we can shift some stakes thats a pile i dont want to get caught with. Guess I could turn it all into stickers, can always use more stickers.

Usually when I get shafted I get really shafted.  I have become very sensitive to my gut when it tells me the cheque needs to clear before we unload the delivery truck.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

redprospector

Quote from: WV Sawmiller on January 20, 2017, 09:33:44 PM

Red,

   Some do, some don't. I don't know about your customers. Most of mine are pretty rural and I think they tend to be more attuned to keeping their word than more urban customers. Not meaning to put down city folks but I think living in a rural environment forces a closer and more personal relationship. No doubt there are big exceptions to this generality so don't hold me to close to this opinion. Also what is the average age of your customers or more precisely of the ones who stiffed you? I suspect age is a factor too. (Another unproven opinion.)
I consider us to be pretty rural. I mean heck, there's only a little over 2 million people in the whole state.  :D If you're not in Albuquerque, or Las Cruces you can't be too far from rural.  ;)
The ages of the ones who stiffed me I would guess to be, one in his early 30's, the other in his mid 40's. I also had a guy in his mid 60's try to talk me down when picking up his order of quarter sawn Douglas Fir "slabs". He actually got a little ugly about it.  :-\

Quote from: longtime lurker on January 20, 2017, 10:12:20 PM
For me this is a mostly a non issue... maybe I'm lucky but I think its more about how we operate...

There's no such thing as a custom size for me, except the real long stuff which is only cut to order. But "regular" size and length dimension lumber we just cut it, and if this guy dont take it someone else will. If a size is a bit odd... say 2¾x7¼... I cut the next regular size up being 3x8, charge them for that, then charge them to resize it back to spec.

What I wont do is cut weird sizes to order. Because if I get stuck with it I'd have to size it down to the next regular size, and any shorts/ out of grade etc is also in a weird size. That means work, and work I dont get paid for at that.

All of my regular builder/cabinetshop/merchant customers all have accounts with us. I've had to wait to get paid often, but thats because my customer has had to wait to get paid by his customer kinda thing. It hurts. Account customers are my cash flow nightmare even when I get paid on time - buying logs today to get paid in three or more months is the bane of my existance.
Walk ins we work the same principal as everybody else... pay before you leave the store.

I'll ask for a deposit if its a big job or a lot of sizes that might not shift in a hurry if the sale fell through. I dislike having to do so but I can only carry so much and things are lean here right now.

This week we quoted a largish dunnage job with a tight deadline through one of our timber yard customers. Mid Feb. delivery, he pays on the 30th day without fail, I got logs and a sawmill...no worries.
A framing order thats a payment on delivery order. Guys bought a few boards from us before, now hes enlarging the house by a lot. Standard sizes mostly, couple of big long beams in it but they'll shift if it falls through or I can cut them back to 2 regular lengths... no worries.
And 30,000 tomato stakes, 1"x 1"x 5'...and that one I want a deposit for because its going to suck up a whole heap of sawlogs meeting their schedule and while we can shift some stakes thats a pile i dont want to get caught with. Guess I could turn it all into stickers, can always use more stickers.

Usually when I get shafted I get really shafted.  I have become very sensitive to my gut when it tells me the cheque needs to clear before we unload the delivery truck.
I couldn't wait 3 months or more for my money. But that's just me. I figure if they need to finance their business, they need a banker, not a sawmiller.
My big problem is that most everything we get is softwoods. I can do ok on beams and 1x's, but framing lumber I can't compete with the big box stores, so it may be quite a while before someone needs that many full size 2x8's.
I guess our gut feelings is the best tool in the box to work with this stuff.
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

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