The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:




TimberKing Sawmills



The Largest Inventory of Used Chainsaw Parts in the World

Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools


Forest Products Industry Insurance

Norwood Industries Inc.

Sawmill & Woodlot Magazine



Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL

Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades

Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

Woodshax Outdoor Vending Solutions

FARMA

Forestry Forum Tool Box

Author Topic: TF Scale models before actual construction?  (Read 1578 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline diyguy

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 6
  • Age: 52
  • Location: Wentzville MO
  • Gender: Male
  • Weekend Warrior
TF Scale models before actual construction?
« on: January 19, 2017, 05:35:49 pm »
While pencil sketching my future TF pavilion plans, I began to wonder if it would be helpful to build a scale model of the rough design using standard dimensional lumber (cut to scale) prior to actually cutting big wood. I'm thinking this would reveal actual angles, help in making cut templates, reveal potential problem joints, and then transferring this info directly into the cut list for the project.

Question is... what scale would actually helpful without being too delicate?

Thoughts?


Offline canopy

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 189
  • Location: Thailand
  • Gender: Male
Re: TF Scale models before actual construction?
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2017, 07:26:10 pm »
Why not learn to use a 3D drawing program such as sketchup which is free? There is a learning curve to get proficient at using the software. Then after drawing the frame, you can get all the things you want plus be able to easily move, resize, and adjust any part of it with ease. Angles, any measurements, and shop drawings for cut lists are quite easy to retrieve.

Offline Dave Shepard

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 10066
  • Age: 2012
  • Location: Alford Massachusetts
  • Gender: Male
  • Geometrically proportional
    • My homepage
Re: TF Scale models before actual construction?
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2017, 09:49:32 pm »
 I did 16:1. I found it was most helpful to potential buyers of the frame, as they didn't really have a good way to get a perspective just from the drawings. If you use 16:1, you can get toys in that scale for comparison. If you go smaller, it may be difficult to assemble. I used a 23 gauge headless pinner.



 
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Offline rjwoelk

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 425
  • Age: 61
  • Location: lumsden sask. canada
  • Gender: Male
    • countrysidefirewood
Re: TF Scale models before actual construction?
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2017, 11:25:11 pm »
I am doing a scale Timber frame of my processing shed.
It is 1 1/2 to the ft or in other words 1/8 of a inch = 1 inch
So my shed is 16x32 so 2 ft wide by 4 ft long
8x8=1inch Sq. For beams easy to cut.
Lt15 palax wood processor,3020 JD 7120 CIH 36x72 hay shed for workshop coop tractor with a duetz for power plant

Offline Jim_Rogers

  • Board Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6587
  • Age: 64
  • Location: Georgetown, MA
  • Gender: Male
  • Keep your chisels sharp.
    • jrsawmill.com
Re: TF Scale models before actual construction?
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2017, 10:36:05 am »
When I did my model, I used 1" = 1' so an 8x8 was 11/16". I too used a finish nail gun and hot glue to assemble.
If you go to the for sale section and look at my timber framing hand tools for sale list, look for item ID # M278** and it may help you out.

Jim Rogers

 

 

 

 

 

 
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Online ljohnsaw

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2537
  • Age: 57
  • Location: Northern California
  • Gender: Male
  • Happily retired... Working harder than ever!
Re: TF Scale models before actual construction?
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2017, 12:10:55 pm »
Since I'm dead in the water (old saying) until the snow melts sometime in June or July, I've been thinking of building my cabin over the winter as well.  I have a bunch of cedar that I can slice up into "timbers" and such.  But I'm wondering, did any of you actually cut the joints, or is that a ridiculous idea :-\  That is, are you models for show or true to form? Or just use pin nailer and glue...

At 1/16 scale, my cabin would be 19½" wide by 46½" long (including the 12' porch).  I think it would benefit my spatially challenged help if I could point to part and say, we are making this right now. ;)
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 38" cut Bandmill up to 64' - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Offline Jim_Rogers

  • Board Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6587
  • Age: 64
  • Location: Georgetown, MA
  • Gender: Male
  • Keep your chisels sharp.
    • jrsawmill.com
Re: TF Scale models before actual construction?
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2017, 05:22:21 pm »
I drew in scarfs with a black marker.
The only joint that I actually cut was the lap over plate on the end of the frame:

 

 

If you want to practice cutting joints then get some short pieces of full size timbers and cut the joints in them, full size. Then you'll have an example to follow when you get full length timbers.
Some people do that and it helps them to make mistakes in small pieces instead of "keeper" pieces.

Jim Rogers

Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline diyguy

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 6
  • Age: 52
  • Location: Wentzville MO
  • Gender: Male
  • Weekend Warrior
Re: TF Scale models before actual construction?
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2017, 06:56:04 pm »
Why not learn to use a 3D drawing program such as sketchup which is free?

I tried sketchup years ago when it was first introduced for furniture drawing. (must be 7+ yrs ago). I hated it! But i did try to learn it because lots of woodworkers were raving. In the end, what took me an hour with a pencil and paper took at least 4x that with sketchup. But also, proper joint detail is what i'm after more then overall "look".  Does Sketchup have a TF template that recommends joint types, or depth/width of mortices?, Haunches? timber size recommendations?, etc. If so, I may try again.

Thanks all. Food for thought.

Online ljohnsaw

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2537
  • Age: 57
  • Location: Northern California
  • Gender: Male
  • Happily retired... Working harder than ever!
Re: TF Scale models before actual construction?
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2017, 10:21:44 pm »
Does Sketchup have a TF template that recommends joint types, or depth/width of mortices?, Haunches? timber size recommendations?, etc. If so, I may try again.

Thanks all. Food for thought.

Not that I'm aware of.  However, it has some extensions call TFRubies.  You define your tenons as a special object.  Then that resides in the adjoining timber.  Automagically, it defines the mortise for you!  You can tell it to generate a timber list (has some issues in version 8 ), and also create shop drawing of the complete timber so you can dimension for later cutting.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 38" cut Bandmill up to 64' - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Offline Heartwood

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 97
  • Location: Washington MA
  • Gender: Male
  • Will Beemer
    • Heartwood School
Re: TF Scale models before actual construction?
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2017, 08:27:34 am »
SketchUp is incredibly fast for modeling once you get some of the tricks down. For example, once you create a post with tenons on each end, you can then "mirror" and duplicate that post (or brace or girt) to spread them out along a bent or wall. Once the bent or wall is made you can then mirror and duplicate them to spread them out along the frame. Then create two opposing rafters and duplicate them down the line as many times as needed at the on-center spacing. With the TF Rubies you can also stretch a timber (for shorter or longer posts, for example) without effecting the shape of the tenons on each end. With the timber components and joinery stored in a Library I can now model a simple frame in less than an hour. I use the solid models tools in the Pro version to subtract the tenons from the mating piece to create the mortises and housings. The peg tool in the TF Rubies also can show the pegs in the final model. Mike Beganyi does a very good job of teaching these methods and you can see the joinery creation by clicking on the "Paste in Place" video here. http://mikebeganyi.com/2013/01/23/sketchup-at-heartwood/.

Offline ScottCC

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Tug Hill NY
  • Gender: Male
  • New ideas welcome
Re: TF Scale models before actual construction?
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2017, 09:14:41 pm »
Seeing those models is unreal, a job in and of itself.  I wonder if you had to pay an artist, that's what it is, how much would it cost with no favors.  They look like 100 man hours I guess.  I want to do a 3D print for my business and I have a guy to do the model for $1200, the printing is $900 and I still need to find an artist to paint and my guess is $1000.  Total is $3100, no order is placed yet as you can imagine.  Granted it is of a model home but still price would hold for your works I think, except your stuff is real wood.  100 years from now that is a treasure for antique archeology to be appraised.  Mine melted in the attic.
Necessity is the mother of invention.  Poverty is its big brother.  Woodmizer mp100, Woodmizer electric  lt15 wide with extra track, 71 Oliver allterrain forklift, 26' flat bed trailer, road legal log arch, homemade kiln, AutoCAD lt15

Offline Dave Shepard

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 10066
  • Age: 2012
  • Location: Alford Massachusetts
  • Gender: Male
  • Geometrically proportional
    • My homepage
Re: TF Scale models before actual construction?
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2017, 10:46:11 pm »
My Dutch barn model took 40 hours. The second one was about 36. The anchor beam mortises are real, and the birdsmouths are on all the rafters. So, multiply 40 x shop rate.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Offline diyguy

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 6
  • Age: 52
  • Location: Wentzville MO
  • Gender: Male
  • Weekend Warrior
Re: TF Scale models before actual construction?
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2017, 06:39:23 pm »
Dave, from your model -- was it helpful in actual construction vs. visualization? I'm going for both. I need to SHOW my wife what's in my head, but also identify any problem areas (joints) in the design I have in mind.

Offline Dave Shepard

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 10066
  • Age: 2012
  • Location: Alford Massachusetts
  • Gender: Male
  • Geometrically proportional
    • My homepage
Re: TF Scale models before actual construction?
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2017, 06:49:34 pm »
Those models were for barns that I was restoring, so I didn't really need them for visualization. I don't have any problem visualizing from drawings, but I have found that many people do have trouble with that. Being able to see the space in three dimensions, especially if you have something for sale, is very helpful.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Offline Dakota

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 329
  • Age: 69
  • Location: Deadwood, South Dakota
  • Gender: Male
  • Swing'en in South Dakota
Re: TF Scale models before actual construction?
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2017, 11:12:02 am »
I built a hybrid cabin that had two roof planes.  I wanted to make sure that the timber frame portion matched up properly(timber frame roof higher), so I built a model.  This helped me a lot, and it was a fun winter project in the shop.

 

 

 

    
Dave Rinker

Offline Brian_Weekley

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 618
  • Location: N. Stonington, CT
  • Gender: Male
  • I am Batman!
Re: TF Scale models before actual construction?
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2017, 10:39:55 pm »
So you guys have inspired me to build a model of my timber frame.  Did you use a miniature saw mill to make it?  I decided to have the Big Pine Lumber Company cut the wood for my model…



 8)

Sorry, I couldn't help making that!
e aho laula

Offline AlaskaLes

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 200
  • Age: 48
  • Location: Trapper Creek, Alaska
  • Gender: Male
  • Livin the dream!
Re: TF Scale models before actual construction?
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2017, 03:09:10 pm »
Hey, I've bought timbers from them before.
They cut some really nice square material.  Those guys are really good to work with!
And they're located right next to the railroad, so shipping is easy.
You can see Mt McKinley from our backyard...Up Close!!

Mighty Mite MK 4B, full-hyd, diesel bandmill
Kubota 4wd 3650GST w/FEL; Forks;
3pt Log Arm& Log trailer
Husky 394XP
Husky 353
Stihl MS290
Echo 330T
Nyle 200M
Robar RC-50 50BMG-just in case the trees get out of line

Offline Ariverrunsthru

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Location: Killbuck, OH
Re: TF Scale models before actual construction?
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2017, 05:16:22 pm »
Building a to-scale model is an absolute must for me. Like Jim Rogers, I use a 1"=1' ratio, however I use a hot glue gun to attach my pieces. The glue dries in seconds, and will hold up to abuse! It will take you a couple hours, a few scraps of plywood or MDF, and it's an incredibly rewarding time. It also provides me a way for my young son to help me.
She's got a hub capped diamond stud halo!

Online ljohnsaw

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2537
  • Age: 57
  • Location: Northern California
  • Gender: Male
  • Happily retired... Working harder than ever!
Re: TF Scale models before actual construction?
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2017, 09:07:08 pm »
So here is my model so far.  I will be adding the rafters and completing one corner with all the layers of wrap and strap.  Also completing the deck.

 

Looking through the Dining area and Kitchen to the wall in front of the bathroom.

 

From the left - Bedroom, Bathroom with shower on far wall, Kitchen followed by the Dining area off to the right.

 

The other bedroom

 

 
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 38" cut Bandmill up to 64' - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Offline Brian_Weekley

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 618
  • Location: N. Stonington, CT
  • Gender: Male
  • I am Batman!
Re: TF Scale models before actual construction?
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2017, 09:21:15 pm »
Fantastic model, John.  Looks great!  I have one question for you...was it necessary to have all the bottom braces?  Did your engineer require that much bracing?
e aho laula

Online ljohnsaw

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2537
  • Age: 57
  • Location: Northern California
  • Gender: Male
  • Happily retired... Working harder than ever!
Re: TF Scale models before actual construction?
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2017, 11:28:45 pm »
Yeah, a little busy.  I probably could have gone with shorter braces but was worried about the leverage it provides when too short.  On the plus side, it proved to be a very stiff frame in the engineer's dynamic modeling software used to evaluate wind and earthquake tests.  I have to have seismic stability, usually accomplished with plywood shear walls.  I don't have ANY plywood in my build! 8)
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 38" cut Bandmill up to 64' - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Offline D L Bahler

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 536
  • Age: 2013
  • Location: Central Indiana - Berner Mitteland
  • Gender: Male
  • Hopp Schwyz!
    • Traditional Swiss Carpentry
Re: TF Scale models before actual construction?
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2017, 05:33:41 pm »
The bracing arrangement makes this frame look solidly low German. Just put some bricks between those timbers, and it would fit right in in Northern Germany!