Measuring cords from loggers

[rjwoelk]

Jamie what would you call a short box level full?
Just wondering, we sell it by the bulk bag which is pretty much a 1/3 but dont advertise it as such.

[Jamie_C]

What is your definition of a short box ? I assume you mean a pickup truck box but again there are so many different box lengths. Our fleet of pickups has 3 different box lengths. You should be somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 a cord piled level in the back of a truck ... so many variables to take into consideration.

[RHP Logging]

I don't know of any firewood companies that own a scale. That's just silly talk now. Maybe the d.o.t. will let you run up on their scales for fun! Ha.

I don't know any firewood companies that have scales either but I buy firewood logs by the ton sometimes so it's not really just silly talk.  There is a truck stop within a couple of miles of my place that has a set of scales.  A lot of towns have places such as grain elevators or other businesses that have scales that they will weigh trucks for a small fee.

I pay for trucking by the hour. If my trucker had to run out of the way to some scales I'd send my wood elsewhere. Profits are thin enough as it is. I have a good reputation so I don't worry about where my wood is going or how much is on the truck and my regular customers don't either.  Also what about mixed hardwood loads? How are you going to quantify that for sure? Seems a slippery slope.

[RHP Logging]

I don't know of any firewood companies that own a scale. That's just silly talk now. Maybe the d.o.t. will let you run up on their scales for fun! Ha.

7 cords of shrinkage in 34 is not acceptable.   At 250-300 per cord cut n split no one would stay in buisness with that loss. I'm charging around 100 per cord. That's 700 down the tubes from shrinkage? Come on.

What would i know ... only a licensed scaler and the company I work for does well north of 2000 cord of firewood a year and has for more years than i can count. We harvest the wood, truck it to our yard, process it ourselves, and truck it to our customers. A 7 cd loss on 34 cd is right on target. I will look up the conversion factors that our Province uses in a bit and post them here .

Also, here in NS the only legal cord is a 128 cubic foot cord, no short cords, processed cords, face cords or any other terms meaning less than 128 cubic feet.

So your company buys 2400 cords a year to be able to make 2000 cords? At 100 bucks a cord they are pissing away 40,000 dollars to shrinkage? I highly doubt it. Seems like someone else should steer that ship. When I send 30 cords to a customer they get thirty cords give or take a cord.  I wouldn't stay in buisness long otherwise.

[Corley5]

  When we sell and buy 100" hardwood firewood around here we're dealing with  2X8X8 cords of 100" mixed hardwood pulp.  It's scaled on the truck as such.  One of those cords doesn't cut up to a 4X4X8 cord of processed wood unless it's exceptionally nice.  I bought some stained sugar maple flooring bolts from a mill one summer that processed almost equally.  That was one time.  If you're selling pulp so that a load processes to 10 4X4X8 cords you're selling a 12 cord load of pulp.  That's how it works around here. 

[RHP Logging]

2x8x8=4x4x8=128

[Corley5]

Exactly, but the 2X8X8 cut into 4X4X8 will be less than 128 cubic feet.  Try it.

[Jamie_C]

RHP ... you should build a box with the dimensions of a cord 4x4x8 ... fill it with 8 foot wood ... now take all of that wood out, cut it into firewood lengths, split it and pile it back into that same box ... you're eyes will be opened.

If you're getting a true cord of finished firewood out of what you're logger claims is a cord of 8' I'm some glad I'm not the logger, the trucker or the landowner he's cutting on.

You cannot fill a square box with round products, remanufacture that round product into smaller pieces split into what is effectively triangles and put it back into the box expecting it to equate to the same full box. The triangular pieces will pack in tighter than all of the round ones did previously.

Sawmills don't buy 8ft saw material by the cord or tonne, process it into a finish product and expect the finished lumber to still be a cord or tonne ... neither should you

[RHP Logging]

RHP ... you should build a box with the dimensions of a cord 4x4x8 ... fill it with 8 foot wood ... now take all of that wood out, cut it into firewood lengths, split it and pile it back into that same box ... you're eyes will be opened.

If you're getting a true cord of finished firewood out of what you're logger claims is a cord of 8' I'm some glad I'm not the logger, the trucker or the landowner he's cutting on.

You cannot fill a square box with round products, remanufacture that round product into smaller pieces split into what is effectively triangles and put it back into the box expecting it to equate to the same full box. The triangular pieces will pack in tighter than all of the round ones did previously.

Sawmills don't buy 8ft saw material by the cord or tonne, process it into a finish product and expect the finished lumber to still be a cord or tonne ... neither should you

I don't buy 8' lengths. I sell them. I'm a logger not a firewood guy.  You're right if you put 8' logs in a box and split logs in a box it will be different. Like I said earlier I send what measures up to be about 11 cords on the truck as 10 cords to the customer. I'd rather have loyal customers.  It's not OK for you guys to be getting screwed that bad and you should not accept that.  7 cords lost in 34 is ridiculous.

[Pclem]

I also own a firewood business. We kiln dry everything, and packaging [bundles] make up about 75% of our business. We have to figure a 25% loss from logs to packaged wood, due to waste and shrinkage. So for an 11 cord load, we're yielding 8.25 cords of split. Yeah, it hurts bad, especially with the markets the last few years for bolts. We can't just run your average pulp load of logs through our processor and be efficient. I bought a cable skidder a couple years ago, and am logging my land and going to look for smaller jobs to log. I think buying our own timber is the only solution for controlling what we run through the processor and package.

[Mountaynman]

round here and in maine the loose dropped on truck cord measurement is 180 cu ft and if you have decent processor wood I don't believe that you will dump the logs off the truck run them thru the processor and fit them back on the same truck have done it many times when I ran a firewood business got out of it due to lack of decent help and the fact that most customers felt they were getting screwed been shorted so many times by others they were actually amazed when my 3 cord load was actually what they got other than the ones that think there is such a thing as a 20" face cord that's another story 

[Jamie_C]

RHP ... it's not getting screwed, it's what happens when you take a raw product and manufacture it into something else. There are always "losses" in a manufacturing process, everything gets priced accordingly.

Again, you wouldn't sell 8' saw material to a sawmill and expect them to be able to get a full cord of lumber out of a cord of wood, firewood is no different.

[SwampDonkey]

We have no oak (very sparse and rare to none in most areas) or hickory here, just hard maple, beech and yellow birch as firewood for long burns.  If you look at green weights of those 3, they are all very close. Lots lighter than oaks, less water off the stump. That being said, green wood, that is around a 34-35 metric tonne (37-39 US ton) load usually gets you 12 to 12-1/2 cord of 24" furnace wood. I've cut it by hand and stacked it many times. It was always sold to me as 12 cords to. I've worked with scales and scale slips in a past life, far more than you can carry in a tote box. Loggers in my area, cutting on woodlots only understand cords. Quoting metric, board feet and tonnes is a foreign language. They pay their cutter and trucker by the cord. The company loggers are in a different boat, they have to deal with metric volumes and weights. But I bet some of their cutters still want to know cords to. We also have chain of custody log books here to.

[Jamie_C]

Swamp ... down here Northern Pulp uses 2.05 tonnes per cord for hardwood pulp or firewood, keep in mind that we have a lot of Red Maple in our mix which lightens things up a lot. Hardwood sawlogs are about 2.4 tonne per cord.

Every load of wood we touch also has the same chain of custody style book.

[SwampDonkey]

Yeah we always used 2.5 metric tonne on hard maple, beech, yellow birch. But I never seen 14 cord of wood stacked from 24" firewood off them loads. A cord of wood is a lot of wood when your cutting and stacking by hand.  ;D

That conversion is based on 8 foot pulp wood, not processed firewood.

[RHP Logging]

RHP ... it's not getting screwed, it's what happens when you take a raw product and manufacture it into something else. There are always "losses" in a manufacturing process, everything gets priced accordingly.

Again, you wouldn't sell 8' saw material to a sawmill and expect them to be able to get a full cord of lumber out of a cord of wood, firewood is no different.

More then 20% is getting screwed. Find another supplier. I'm not questioning the loss of material when it's broken down. That was never the scenario. Only a moron would think a cord of round wood equals a cord of split wood.  I'm questioning the size of the loads in the first place.  I'm trying to tell you not to accept that and you seem to be OK with loosing money. Well not you personally.  Your employer. So I guess you probably don't mind.

[chevytaHOE5674]

RHP if you buy 10 cord of logs and your pile of logs scales out to 10 cord of logs then nobody is getting screwed. Your buying raw logs so you pay based on that you aren't buying or selling logs based on the volume after post processing.

Weather you get 9.5 cord or 6 cord of cut split firewood from the 10 cord is irrelivant at that point.

[chevytaHOE5674]

I'm questioning the size of the loads in the first place

You can't dispute the size of the original load of logs based on what the output after processing was. That will change depending of firewood length, split size, etc.

[SwampDonkey]

This why a lot of loggers charge more if it's to be processed for firewood. The logger can get paid for say 14 cord of pulp at the mill based on 8 foot conversion, he's not too happy to be short 2 cord of pay if he sells firewood unless the price balances out the difference.

[Mountaynman]

round here that's why most guys don't sell much for firewood hassle of collecting the money and all the bitchin about rot or being short at the pulp mill its 2.77 ton to the cord and a ton is a ton over the scale the money is in your account next week on wednesday

[deerguy]

Wow gents,

Glad ol' Beatrice my 330 TJ is laid up with a sore leg ( planetary and now locker ) cause she would have spasms trying to figure out how much wood we pulled in a day !! Since the goal is to sell it, doesn't the final pile dictate the numbers ?? Assume waste and cutting etc...if a 10 cord load turns into " X " percent less....we are either doing great or we have an issue with supply ??
And on that note I'll bow out, although I have learned a lot about firewood calculations and for that a big thank you to all who took the time !!

Deerguy

[RHP Logging]

I guess I really don't care that much as long as I'm getting paid what I need for a semi load and my firewood customer is happy. You guys do what you want.  Hey maybe you could figure that cordage loss into tax losses.

[Jamie_C]

RHP ... it's not getting screwed, it's what happens when you take a raw product and manufacture it into something else. There are always "losses" in a manufacturing process, everything gets priced accordingly.

Again, you wouldn't sell 8' saw material to a sawmill and expect them to be able to get a full cord of lumber out of a cord of wood, firewood is no different.

More then 20% is getting screwed. Find another supplier. I'm not questioning the loss of material when it's broken down. That was never the scenario. Only a moron would think a cord of round wood equals a cord of split wood.  I'm questioning the size of the loads in the first place.  I'm trying to tell you not to accept that and you seem to be OK with loosing money. Well not you personally.  Your employer. So I guess you probably don't mind.

RHP ... we control everything from the stump right to the point of dropping off the firewood in the customers yard. Our harvesters cut it, our forwarders put it to roadside, our trucks haul it, it even crosses our own scales in our woodyard a lot of the time. Our wood is scaled for what is actually there, we don't put on 11 cords and call it 10, that would be cheating the landowner out of stumpage money. We know what our conversion factor is from raw product to finished product and it's priced accordingly.

We know when we put X amount of wood in our yard what it will yield in finished product. We don't try to put extra wood on our trucks and call it less than actual volume just to make our yield falsely look better.

[RHP Logging]

How do you know what numbers I'm giving the landowner? Falsely making my loads look better by selling the customer more wood then what I'm getting paid for? What the hell? The discussion started out with a good way to measure a load of firewood. I said on the truck. No, he should spend more money because he already feels he is out on scales so he can weigh the wood, guess at a conversion factor and then what?  Honestly maybe he should just bend over when he sees the log truck coming and get ready to take it.  I don't really care how much wood turns into how much wood. That was never the issue. Not really sure why I had to be taught wood conversion factors. You guys are missing the point and I could care less. I'm trying to tell the OP not to take that crap.  20% loss is crap and I don't think the OP should just stand there and take it.

[Jamie_C]

RHP ... you do seem to care quite deeply about how many cords of wood will equal x amount of firewood or you wouldn't continually say that a 20% loss is crap. If you're in business and don't know the conversion factors used in your business then you are doomed to failure. Our numbers come from about 20 years of selling firewood and we know exactly what our numbers are.

Our equipment cuts, forwards and trucks about 200,000 tonnes of wood a year and our records are kept right down to 0.001 tonne on every truck load of wood.