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Have to add a new stihl saw (update)

Started by teakwood, January 07, 2017, 09:05:34 AM

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teakwood

 Next January i will start the second commercial thinning in my teak plantations. The trees will be 13years old and diam are between 10"- 16", sometimes more because of the rootflare and we cut real low so we dont loose wood. I have 3 MS260 with 18"bars and they have been great but they're  too weak to cut full speed thru 12"-14" teakwood, its very dense and dull the chain real quick because of the natural oil teak has in it.
Just the 361 (59cc) and the 381 (72cc) are available here from the dealer, all come with the duromatic bar ::) which i dont like, too heavy and spend a lot of chain because of the tip.  I will probably go with a 20" bar. I see that the 361 has 3/8 chain and the 260 run 325. Would  it be faster cutting with a 325. on the 361? or is that chain to weak?
Weight is every thing for me because a heavy saw will worn you out faster in these hot temps here.
Take in mind that in an other 5-6 years another thinning has to be done and then the trees  go up to 18"-20", or i just buy another saw then. ( i have a 066 but its just to much of a beast for a complete day of work)
any thoughts? the 361 has good reviews? what chain and bar should i get?

Thanks

Here are some pics for reference, the trees on the pics are 9-10 years old, so the ones i need to cut will be bigger, its a 260 with 18" bar


  

 
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Texas-Jim

361 is great choice, its basically a 362 stratified. its still light enough to work all day. I don't know if they are available there but you might try a carbide chain, they stay sharp longer. Assuming your dealer can sharpen them, a file wont work.
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HolmenTree

I cut my stumps much lower then that teakwood.
Like Jim said the MS361 is an excellent choice.
My advice run a 18" 3/8" bar/chain. (33RS).
.325 -23RS chain is a little faster and smoother for your wood size on a 60cc saw. But for daily logging use you have alot less filing life over the 33RS.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

DelawhereJoe

Is the ms 261 available to you ? I think they are running 4 hp from it now, it should pull a chain faster then the 260. Are you running chisel or semi chisel chain ?
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HolmenTree

The newest updated MS261 with the funny looking sprocket cover is the one to own.
But then you're stuck with the smaller .325 chain for  daily logging with less chain life. Plus when you get into 20" diameter wood the 361 is your better choice.

Yes a RM semi chisel chain is a must in dirty wood but I don't think teak oil is abrasive, so I would just stick with the RS chisel. Unless your constantly in sandy based ground.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

teakwood

Thanks for all the replies
I am running .325 RM on the 260, never tried the RS on this small saw.

I think i am sold on the 361 with 3/8" RS chain. Holmen: why would you go with the 18" bar? better balance or less weight.
What do you think on the bars? Stihl not even sell one other bar than the duromatics ::) ::). Its unbelievable!  Will see if i can get a husky bar or oregon for my 260, it needs a new bar. any thoughts?   If i cant get it i would need to order from the us, some rollomatic. what is with the rollomatic light? too weak? i get the bar pinched pretty often
Quote from: HolmenTree on January 07, 2017, 02:16:12 PM
The newest updated MS261 with the funny looking sprocket cover is the one to own.
But then you're stuck with the smaller .325 chain for  daily logging with less chain life. Plus when you get into 20" diameter wood the 361 is your better choice.

Yes a RM semi chisel chain is a must in dirty wood but I don't think teak oil is abrasive, so I would just stick with the RS chisel. Unless your constantly in sandy based ground.
Teak is very abrasive, i dont know if its the oil or what. in the woodworkingshop we need to use all carbide blades and cutters on every machine. chainsaw gets dull every hour when cutting teak
National Stihl Timbersports Champion Costa Rica 2018

HolmenTree

Teakwood, thanks for the info of the teakwood. If it's that abrasive then that's probably why you can only get Duromatic bars.
Yes shorter the bar offers better power to weight ratio plus better ergonomics limbing and bucking your smaller wood. Keeps the nose out of the dirt and rocks better too.
If your biggest tree is 20" I recommend a 16" bar. You're not going to be cutting a whole stand of average 20" wood in a day. But if it's plantation grown I may be wrong. But even so a 16"-18"bar is plenty length for felling 20" wood.

Semi chisel 3/8" RM will hold a better cutting edge with its larger size over the .325. Plus you can still use your old Duromatic bars.

Making a living with a saw since age 16.

DelawhereJoe

Do you know the type of teak that you cut, looking around on line what they call plantation teak (1000) is just a little harder then red maple (950-990). The Brazilian teak is completely different at (3500) on the hardness scale.  Some people here touch up there chain with every or every other tank of fuel.
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teakwood

Holmen: They dont sell anything else because the market is to small, i think. people dont know much about saws even the dealer are sometimes without knowledge. i had to special order 13/64 files because the dealer just sells 3/16 for every size chain ::) ::). they dont even sell protective gear, had to bring my sawpants from switzerland (were i am from).
The biggest trees will be 18", in average i think they will be 10-14". 20" trees i will probably have in an other 8-10years.  But as i fell 100-150 trees a day i dont want to have to run around the tree because the bar is to short. i like to make everything from on side (downhill side), the notch and the backcut.
National Stihl Timbersports Champion Costa Rica 2018

teakwood

Delawhere:  I consider myself an expert in the handling of my teak plantations and everything that comes with it, but i am no expert when it comes to know the specifics of the wood. actually had to look that hardness scale up.
I think there is just one teakspecies in the world although they have different gens and i know that different family's are produced when they are cloned, but the wood is the same. That brasilian teak (camaru) maybe isn't even teak, could be just called so from the locals, because its very strange that the same wood will have 3.5 times more hardness??? Old grown is at 1200 and plantation at 1000, that i believe, but 3500? ???
What it depends a lot is where it grows and how fast. our teak is not that hard but its very dense for the chainsaw to cut thru. also its very heavy when green because its full of water.  Of course 10-20 year old teak from plantations will never have the same strength and hardness of 60 or 100 year old slowgrown native teak. but the 'original' teak is harder and harder to find and its very very expensive. I considered the plantation teak a good quality wood from 20 years and up, as i have worked with older teak, i have a small woodworking shop and make custom furniture's.
National Stihl Timbersports Champion Costa Rica 2018

DelawhereJoe

Theres a chance the dealer only sells the duramatic so he only has to stock 1 bar per length for every chain .325 , 3/8 lp, 3/8  and .404...one bar to rule them all. It kinda cuts down on storage and shipping. You should try the RS chain and see how well it works for you, all chains dull I don't see that teak being and harder to cut then say white oak, white ash was the closest I can find to being even with it but its harder.
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HolmenTree

Quote from: teakwood .link=topic=94013.msg1449089#msg1449089 date=1483919982
*i had to special order 13/64 files because the dealer just sells 3/16 for every size chain.

*from switzerland (were i am from).

*The biggest trees will be 18", in average i think they will be 10-14". 20" trees i will probably have in an other 8-10years. 

*But as i fell 100-150 trees a day i dont want to have to run around the tree because the bar is to short. i like to make everything from on side (downhill side), the wedge and the backcut.
* Try a 5 mm file. This size is between 3/16 and 13/64. Can be used on all .325 and standard 3/8" chain.

*My best logging partner ever was a guy from Switzerland.  He came over to Canada in 1971. He loved his Timber Jack skidders, Franz Lehmen was his name.

* All you need is a 16" b/c but 18" will do you just fine. Also factor in the facecut notch only needs to be 80% diameter of the tree.


*In small wood I like to cut from 1 side only too. Depending what direction I'm felling my swath of trees along the block face I notch from either the right or left hand side of the tree. Back cut with the top of the bar (back chaining) when I'm on the right. And backchaining both notch cuts and pullchain the backcut on the left.
If the tree is wider then the bar I reach around and start the cut with the nose and swing it around to where I notched from.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

teakwood

Its normal that all chains dull, but i will of course try a RS chain when i buy the 361. Have to wait for the expo in May then they make big discounts on the saws. another problem here is: 18" duramatic bar for my 260 is 60$  >:( and  a loop of .325 for it is 22$  ??? ???
They started to sell the 13/64file now to the public thanks to me :D :D as i insisted they need to order mi some.
Your right on the smaller facecut notch. I usually droped the trees with a fellerlever  but pretty sure that wont be strong enough with the bigger trees now ???. Maybe try wedges but not sure if the diam is big enough on some trees to put the wedges in.
Do you think that 361 wont be under powered in 8years when i'm in 18"-20" wood?
National Stihl Timbersports Champion Costa Rica 2018

DelawhereJoe

All your old bars will work on the new saws its all the stihl 3003 mount. Theres about 1kg difference between the powerheads on the 260 and 361, you should get used to it in no time. Your felling rate may also go up as the saw will cut much faster with the greater hp. With my 024 and 026 once I hit 50% bar length I get a larger saw, it just takes to long cutting oak.
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HolmenTree

Quote from: teakwood on January 09, 2017, 07:20:23 AM
* Maybe try wedges but not sure if the diam is big enough on some trees to put the wedges in.

*Do you think that 361 wont be under powered in 8years when i'm in 18"-20" wood?
*There are aluminum and plastic wedges on the market as short as 3". Carry a 1 pound hatchet in a hammer loop on your belt .

*By then you can buy the new MS462 which is not much heavier then the 361. Run 18" b/c.
I ran a 18" on my 064AV.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

teakwood

Really good infos! Thanks a lot
All my old bars are worn pretty good so in every case i have to buy new ones.  So the duramatic bars with 1.6mm groove will work on both saws and can be used with .325 or 3/8" chain? just the ring sprocket has to be changed?  If i buy rollomatic bars they are two different sizes,because of the nose sprocket in the bar?
Holmen: a one pound hatchet is enough weight? Thats just 450grams ???
National Stihl Timbersports Champion Costa Rica 2018

HolmenTree

1.6mm (.063) gauge on your guide bar is the same size as all rim sprockets so nothing had to be changed.

When you go to a Rollo Matic bar yes you will need 2 different sprocket nose tips. E bars are laminated with no replaceable noses plus their not recommended for daily logging as the rails spread fast and don't retighten well.
Get the ES bars as the bar is solid steel, kerf can be retightened and the replaceable noses can be switched out to either .325 or 3/8".

For your size trees a light hatchet is all you need . Even for driving 8" -10" wedges. If you need more lifting power use a 2nd or 3rd wedge, use a longer wedge with less taper or make the facecut notch deeper.
In my logging days that 1 pound (maybe 1 1/2 pounds?) hatchet drove wedges felling 24" diameter spruce 75 feet tall . Hatchet and wedges will far out lift a felling lever and alot easier to carry throughout the day.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

HolmenTree

Teakwood here's a good video showing wedging small diameter trees.
Goes to show even a city guy arborist can get it done :D

https://youtu.be/QPeDw-zgIEY
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

teakwood

Thanks Holmen
I will definitely try the wedges and the hatchet. already have two 8" wedges and the holder custom made from leather. just need to get a hatchet. (i cant even buy wedges here ::))
I have done that technique but with the fellerlever, works good. But as the log end is uneven i have to make a second cleaning cut and its too time consuming and looses wood. The perfect approach for me is (i dont always achieve it :D): I make the notch with an undercut (absolutely frowned in Europe) and make the backcut exactly on the same height, when the tree moved about 10 degrees or i know he has its direction i stumpjump em so the can freely out turn the crown without getting hung up in the residual stand. If i did the cuts on the exact same height the log end will be fairly even. Does that make any sense? I apologize if i didn't used the correct words.


 

I will surely not find a ES bar here in Costa Rica. Whats the equivalent in oregon or husky? Can i use them on a stihl saw?
How much is the 361 in Canada or the US? they want 750$ for one here
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HolmenTree

I was just using that video to show a light hammer will do the job. Yes arborists don't care about log quality.  :D

If I get a small back leaning tree that I can't push over by hand, I'll cut the back cut first, insert wedge and then make the facecut notch.

Yes from your picture you use the humbolt notch, that's what I used and also cut my backcut level too. Saves squaring the butt later.
I sometimes cut my hinge to let the tree roll against other trees to prevent hangups along a buffer etc.
But I only worked the clear-cut system where I work along a straight face on my block of timber. Trees felled evenly into the clearing for the skidder.
Our conifer trees here grow with a natural south east lean so our block cutting can be very productive.

Oregon makes a bar for every saw brand called a PowerMatch. The sprocket nose does increase chain speed saving power. Plus you can keep the chain snug preventing derailing.

MS361will sell for about $700 (Canadian $) here.



Making a living with a saw since age 16.

teakwood

Did some ebay shopping and the items just arrived at my place.  ;D ;D
Bought 2 rollomatic 18" .325 bars with new covers for my MS260, a Rollomatic ES 18" 3/8" for the 361 (that i dont own yet :D), 8 rim sprocket 7x.325, 8 rim sprocket 7x 3/8, 15 5.5" wedges for 30$ :D, and a 1.5lb hatchet that i bought in costa rica for 20$. Special thanks to HolmenTree and all the others who gave me some good infos.
The pinons cost 17$ each from the dealer in cr :o  on ebay i found OEM s for 5.20$ so i bought a few! ;)

The Stihl dealer will sell the 361 with a 25" bar ::) ::). The will not give me any credit for take it with a 18" bar, so i sold the 25" bar of my 066 to a local logger here and will replace that with the new bar that comes with the 361, thats why i already purchased the 18" ES bar on ebay for the 361.

I put the 18" ES on the 066 meanwhile i buy the 361. Looks kinda weird, it sure will have a ton of power for that bar :D


  

 


 

3 MS 260s, the first one is 3 years old and the other ones are 12years (these i have rebuilt for compression and new am carbs)

 

The wedges are very small but i think they will be perfect for my purpose.

 
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HolmenTree

Very nice teakwood.
Always carry 3 wedges. The barb teeth side goes against the stump.
Then if 1 wedge isn't enough lift, set the other 2 wedges stacked on top of each other alongside the first wedge.
One barb side must be against the stump and the top wedge barb side against the butt of the tree.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Kbeitz

Do you go through that many sprockets ?
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Greyhound

Excellent choices.  The 361 is a significant step up in power from the 260 but is still a decent size and weight for all day cutting.  Great idea on the sprockets and bars.  You will be able to figure out what is the best combo of bar/sprocket/chain for your individual needs.  FWIW, I run 3/8th on my MS261, but it's been woods ported so it definitely has the power to pull the bigger teeth. I do this just to be consistent with my 361 and 461.  In your situation, you may find that you prefer .325 on your 361. Nothing  beats getting out there and testing it yourself.

teakwood

Quote from: Kbeitz on February 12, 2017, 08:20:41 AM
Do you go through that many sprockets ?

I change sprocket every 3-4 chains, when i see more than 0.5 wear on the sprocket. Maybe i will have less wear on them now because of the new bars, duromatic bars make the chain suffer a lot more and i am sure the chain will wear the sprocket more also.
It costed me the same to bring 4 or 8 so i have a good stock now, and i sell them to some locals if they need one for 11$ ;D I also sell the 13/64 files that are not available even from the dealer
National Stihl Timbersports Champion Costa Rica 2018

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