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Im new to the thread. And...I have questions!

Started by coyotefur, January 06, 2017, 08:21:46 PM

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coyotefur

I have a logger starting on my property in a few weeks. I am cutting 16" and above trees on 145 acres. The logger thinks i will pocket around $500 an acre.

I'm also planning on putting an addition on my house of 1800-2000 sq.ft in the next year or so.

Would it be in my best interest to setup a mill on my property to help with the lumber cost of the home addition? I figure I would pay the logger his portion and keep the logs.

My other option is to sell the logs to the mill and buy lumber in a year or so for the home addition.

Its also important to note that the last house I had built, 15% of the total cost was the lumber package. And I paid $87.50 a sq.ft 5 years ago.

Any words of wisdom would be greatly appreciated.   

Dustin
E.KY

1ruralmailman

 it all depends on,if you can use your own lumber by code in your area or not.there are alot of places non graded lumber wont be allowed.you could still have trim lumber cut and used,but it still may make more sense to use proceeds to purchase what you need when the time comes.

coyotefur

Thanks for the reply. My last house was $87.50 a sq.ft. With my home addition of 1800-2000 sq ft. I'm looking at $157,500-$175,000 for the addition and 15% of that for the lumber, which would be $23,000 - $26,000.

I essentially have 23k-26k to to invest in a mill and pay the logger for his work. I wonder if it would pay for its self?

Dustin

Brad_bb

Where are you?  Hardwood or softwood?  Do you have a building to store the lumber while it dries?  Can you use your lumber or will you have a problem with your local code? 

A mill is not a straight up economic decision.  It will also involve your time to mill, move wood, support equipment(forklift or equivalent, good chainsaw(and training to sharpen properly - I recommend the granberg grind n joint sharpener), other tools, room to work and a way to protect the equipment, protected storage place for wood.  The real question is, do you have a desire to mill?  I sure did.  It's got to be something you are interested in and will get some enjoyment from.  If it's a chore to you, forget it.  Milling will also give you the opportunity to make other stuff, like a slab table, benches, lumber for other projects, mill interesting wood like crotches and figured wood. 

I bought a mill to supply as much wood as I could for my timberframe house, and horse barn.  I wanted to have my hands in it.  I think maybe by the end of the project I will have paid for the mill in the cost difference of the wood I'm supplying, especially when I take into account all of the small tool and other support costs. 

What do YOU want to do?
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
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coyotefur

I'm in Eastern KY. The road my property is one is called Big White Oak if that says anything about the timber.

I have 3 big barns each 80x40. 62hp tractor with a bucket. Decent chainsaw. I already use the granberg sharpener. Does great.

I do not know the codes in my area. That's going to be my next step. I'm looking for advice on whether or not this is economically smart. 15k saw mill and milling my own or taking the cash and buying it. Either way I'm going to need lumber for my addition.

Dustin

WV Sawmiller

Cfur,

   From a simple economics view you could likely get a local mobile sawyer to come saw on site cheaper than buying a new mill if this is truly a one time project. If you will have future projects and enjoy milling or just being able to point to a structure and say "That lumber came off my property and I sawed it myself" then buy the mill.

    Another option is you could get a new hydraulic mill like mine for your budget then keep or sell it afterwards.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

coyotefur

What kind of hydraulic mill do you have? I was looking at Lucas mill. The look pretty slick.

Sixacresand

JMO  Hold on to a portion of your timber, buy a portable mill.  You already ahead of the game with a tractor, barns, land and timber.
"Sometimes you can make more hay with less equipment if you just use your head."  Tom, Forestry Forum.  Tenth year with a LT40 Woodmizer,

Peter Drouin

I would only cut 50 A See what the woods look like after. And see the money in your hand to see if you're happy with what's going on.
Having a mill is good, But, It's a lot of work.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Cedarman

Do you have a timber management plan?  Who is making the choice of trees to cut?  Sometime short term gains make for long term losses.  What about the low grade trees that just take up space and are not growing money?  A long term management plan is one of the best things you can do for your woods.  Too often it log the best and leave the rest.  I know you didn't ask about timber management, but being a member of Indiana Forest and Woodland Owners Assoc has taught me the importance of helping my woods, so I throw this out for you to ponder.  Consulting foresters can be very helpful.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

WDH

At least down here, diameter cuts without good tree selection results in high grading. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

4x4American

I originally thought you meant you wanted to hire a portable guy to come in, I think that's the cheapest/easiest option
Boy, back in my day..

Chuck White

~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

Peter Drouin

Quote from: WDH on January 07, 2017, 07:07:39 AM
At least down here, diameter cuts without good tree selection results in high grading. 



Then you have 145A of junk on the stump. I have seen the high grading in NH, Not a good sight.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

coyotefur

Thanks everyone for the responses. I've been wanting a mill for years now and this might be the right opportunity to get in the game. Do you guys think it would pay for its self? Im going to have ab 25k in lumber anyways.

As for the land management question. No, i do not have a land manager. I have talked to the KY forestry dept and they indirectly recommended a few loggers in my area (wink wink). The guy im using is almost 70 years old and has been logging since he was 16. Good fella.

Dustin

tacks Y

If it is not to late I would get another quote on your timber. 500 an acre may be a smoking deal for you or for him?

dean herring

How are you going to dry the wood to limit shrink?
Failure is not an option  3D Lumber

Jeff

I think you need to start over on your thinking beginning with a management plan. Since it sounds like this is a hardwood forest, your potential for loss if you don't far exceeds what you may imagine. I've witnessed where a landowner received $900 share on just one white oak veneer quality tree. It sounds like you don't know much about your timber other than what this one very impressionable logger has told you.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Magicman

No matter how old or honest he is, the logger does not need to be the the person selecting the trees to be removed.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Ricker

Jeff said it best.  There could be a lot of money left on the table on 145 acres of nice hardwood.

drobertson

There are loggers that have worked, and still work hand in hand with foresters, utilizing proper timber harvest practices. That said knowing ahead of time would be preferred on the over all health of the stand(s) that are chosen for a timber sale. Having a management plan should be your first move, IMHO after this other decisions can be made as to sawing out and saving,
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

coyotefur

Does the land manager usually cost anything or is it a state program?

WV Sawmiller

Quote from: coyotefur on January 06, 2017, 11:03:21 PM
What kind of hydraulic mill do you have? I was looking at Lucas mill. The look pretty slick.

    My particular mill is a Woodmizer LT35HD25. Hydraulic lifting, clamping, leveling, and turning with 25 hp Kohler gas engine. It cuts up to a 21' long log (You very seldom will likely ever need that length) that is up to 32" diameter with up to a 23" wide board. I have not found a log yet that it would turn (within those dimensions). A new one is well within your cited budget. Good used ones for even less.

    I am not familiar with the Lucas model you mention but I have never heard anything negative about them. The other sponsors and major sawmill makers build very good mills ans have very good reputations.

    If you are seriously planning on getting a mill check out the various features and compare prices and pick the best one to meet your needs. Even better go observe and/or off-bear for other sawyers with various mills and determine which features you like or need.

    The other comments about managing your woodlot deserve your attention too. Don't sacrifice long term goals and benefits for short term cash.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

drobertson

Quote from: coyotefur on January 07, 2017, 09:30:25 AM
Does the land manager usually cost anything or is it a state program?
Not sure what Kentucky has to offer, here in Missouri the conservation has cost share programs, land owners agree to    management plans the forester works up. Mine is a ten year program designed for timber stand and wildlife improvements, 120 acres was broke into 7 Individual stands.
The timber was measured by species, amount per acre and general health. The forester charged by the acre, I. Was reimbursed. Programs like this may be available in your area, try contacting your DNR or USDA, whichever is available,  having this done cleared up the mystery for me, and I learned a lot tagging along,
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Ron Wenrich

My question is where is the 16" measured?   If its on the stump, that means anything at about a 12' dbh is going to be cut, due to taper and butt flare.  That is essentially a clearcut, especially an economic clearcut.  $500/acre for timber may or may not be a good deal.  I've seen stands of hardwood with close to 10 Mbf/acre and quite often took 5 Mbf/acre on a decent thinning, without dipping down into the 16" dbh too hard. 

Is your timber worth $100/Mbf or $300/Mbf?  You don't know without an appraisal, at a minimum.  A consulting forester will walk your property and figure out what a sale could bring.  Usually that doesn't cost anything.  The consultant makes his money usually as a portion of the sale.  He'll mark timber for removal, solicit bids, collect money and inspect the job to make sure the logger is doing a good job.  You'll have a paycheck before the timber is harvested. 

A bad selection job is where you cut the best and leave the rest.  Most diameter limit cuts are like that, since you took all your good growing stock and left the stunted trees to recover.  Diameter is not an indication of age.  A good selection job is where you thin out your junk along with some of the mature timber and allow some better stock to grow for future use.  Farmers who kill their best milkers aren't farmers for very long. 

As for getting a mill, there is a learning curve.  You'll start out by ruining lumber.  Does it pay?  Depends on how much of your time you want to invest.  I take my car to a mechanic because I'm mechanically declined.  Simple things, I'm okay.  I always spend more time and money in trying to fix things because I don't know what I'm doing.   You may be better served to have someone else with the expertise saw your logs.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

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