Fence lines and tree rows

[rank]

Hello All. First post here.  I'm a farmer located in southern Ontario with approx 250 acres of woods and several miles of treed fence lines.  Some are mature oak, maple, ash, birch, cedar and probably hemlock along with others I can't identify.

I ran into a logger in the local coffee shop last summer and asked him what these trees were worth per board foot.  His response: "You guys are looking to log your fence lines?".  He kind of smiled and that was then end of the conversation.

Today I called a local mill.  Biggest one in the area and asked him what they would be worth if I logged them and put them by the roadside for pickup or even I trucked then to him.  His reply: "It's not worth your time.  Either let someone cut them for firewood or knock them over with an excavator and burn them."

Well, that just seems like a waste.

I am capable of felling these trees but don't want to waste my time for no added value either.  I have 4x4 tractors, chain saws, highway tractors licensed in Canada and the United States, flatbed trailers, excavator and I even have a neighbor with a sawmill.

What is the real story?

[Wis Forester]

My guess as a forester is that the loggers and mills are shying away from your project because of the "fence lines" themselves.

Need to realize that although there may be large trees on the fence line, it is highly likely that there are also a good amount of nails, fencing, and probably ceramic fence insulators on or grown within the trees.  These items cause major damage to logging equipment and logging saws.  If they get to a sawmill and are not caught by the metal detector, they also can cause thousands of dollars of damage and down time in the mill. They can also cause damage at chippers and pulpwood mills.

I worked at a sawmill for 9 years and spent a good amount of time chopping metal from logs that were rejected by the metal detector. Not cost efficient and a real waste of time for logs that were high value without the metal. About 50% of the metal was from farming area with fence lines, about 30% were bullets, and the remainder was items ranging from old saw blades to axes to belt buckles and sap taps.

Hope that gives you some information?

[thecfarm]

rank,welcome to the forum.
I have fence lines, the nailing the fence to the trees is a problem,but even if I cut 5 feet off each tree,the big limbs and the limbs that start about 10 feet up on each tree is a problem. Some trees have limbs on one side,but the woods sides not many limbs.Trees usually do not grow good along a fence line. Or mine don't. Would make good pulp,but not good logs.

[rank]

That's a really good point about the potential for metal.  I didn't think of that.  I'll look at home made deer stands in a different light now.

With regard to the limbs, if the tree is straight after being limbed, is the tree still undesirable?  In other words, do the limbs do something to the grain of the tree that makes it bad for logs/lumber?

[DDW_OR]

big limbs = big nots = weak lumber.

but the lumber will have interesting patterns that are useful in furniture

[Clark]

big limbs = big nots = weak lumber.

but the lumber will have interesting patterns that are useful in furniture

Strength is rarely a consideration in hardwoods, at least on this side of the divide. Appearance of the lumber is the bigger issue. Nobody will pay veneer prices for a log that had large limbs. There are markets for that wood but they aren't the high dollar markets.

Clark

[rank]

So the big money is for veneer.  I see.  Do they not make solid oak, maple ash furniture/flooring anymore?

[DDW_OR]

So the big money is for veneer.  I see.  Do they not make solid oak, maple ash furniture/flooring anymore?

apparently not medium to large commercial operations.

so that leaves personal and small scale operations.

[Ron Wenrich]

They make furniture, cabinets and flooring out of hardwoods, but they don't like knots.  It is hard to match, especially with a wild grain pattern.  Hardwood is sold by appearance.  Molding requires long runs of clear lumber, and has a higher price.  The shorter the run of clear lumber, the lower the price. 

Most furniture and cabinets use panels that are composed of pieces that are matched and from 2-4" in width, then glued up.  This makes for a stable panel.  The big knots do not lay as flat as wood without the wild grain from a big knot.  In the lumber grading methods, there is a restriction to the knot size.  The bigger the knot, the less the price.

Fence row trees tend to be bushier than a woods grown tree.  They haven't had to compete for sunlight or water.  The result is a fast growing tree with little character.  The rings are spaced further apart.  That leads to bland looking lumber. 

From a logging aspect, bushy trees don't have the volume in them due to short bole before they start to branch out.  Couple that in with the potential of metal and losing the higher value base of the tree, it is a lot more work to get a decent load of logs.  Not to mention dealing with tops, which are much larger than woods grown trees.

From the mill aspect, there is always the danger of metal, but trees are open grown don't prune as well as woods grown.  That means the trees open up to defect in the form of knots, a lot quicker.  Again the knots mean a lower value.  All the risk is on the mill, after they have bought the log.

[rank]

This is all good stuff guys.  Thanks for taking the time.

With regard to the metal in the trees, it's been 30-50 years since anyone has run cattle and built a fence on these properties so only the real large ones might have any metal.

As it happens, my father (75 yrs) ran into that logger again yesterday and they went for a walk along some of the tree lines. They also went into in the "wood lots"....we have a few 25-50 acre tracts of this too.  These are tracts of land that for whatever reason (mostly because they are wet) have never been cleared, ever.  He seems most interested in the cedar.  I suppose that's because it cuts alot easier and there's a demand for it because everyone and their neighbor builds a deck?

Keep in mind that my end goal for the fence lines is to have the stumps removed too.  Most farmers knock the entire tree over with an excavator root ball and all but with the trunk gone, there's nothing to lever the stump out of the ground.  The above logger said he didn't want any part of that.  I suppose that's because the excavator might damage the log?  I might be wrong but I doubt that he is big enough operator to have one of those felling machines that I see on TV. 

[Ron Wenrich]

Most loggers aren't equipped to remove stumps.  I know landclearers that do that, but they charge upwards of $2,000 per acre, and they keep the timber.  They do a nice job, but this is more of an investment as opposed to selling off an asset like stumpage.  Landclearers have more invested in capital and their daily costs are a lot higher. 

I've sawn some logs that have been pushed over with a dozer.  The problem I had on a few of the logs is that the bucket teeth push into the log.  That carries dirt, and puts a hole in the outside boards.  Sometimes there's even a rock in there that was hanging on the bucket.  Rocks are worse than metal.  It wasn't that big of deal for me, but other mills will knock off the log grade.   

[rank]

Most loggers aren't equipped to remove stumps.  I know landclearers that do that, but they charge upwards of $2,000 per acre, and they keep the timber.  They do a nice job, but this is more of an investment as opposed to selling off an asset like stumpage.  Landclearers have more invested in capital and their daily costs are a lot higher. 

I've sawn some logs that have been pushed over with a dozer.  The problem I had on a few of the logs is that the bucket teeth push into the log.  That carries dirt, and puts a hole in the outside boards.  Sometimes there's even a rock in there that was hanging on the bucket.  Rocks are worse than metal.  It wasn't that big of deal for me, but other mills will knock off the log grade.   

Yep we've hired the mulchers to clear land and it cost  ~$3000/ac.  A dozer would do alot more damage than a excavator because a dozer doesn't get any leverage with the blade way down low on the trunk.  By raising the boom on the excavator you get more leverage plus you're making contact with the tree higher, perhaps saving the log.

[DDW_OR]

i also am clearing fence line. have 166 acres of wooded/hilly. plan on putting a perimeter fence with cross fences = over 20,000 feet of fence. plus thinning of the forest.

Have a bobcat 331 and E80 excavators, each have a frost ripper tooth to break the tree roots next to the stump. Am planning on getting a harvester head for the E80, been looking at the Hahn HSG-140 made in Two Harbors, Minnesota. price for just the head is about $75,000.

looking at modifying one of the bits for the Bobcat HB1180 breaker into a post pounder. I have LOTS of 10 to 12 inch trees for fence posts.

[rank]

Am planning on getting a harvester head for the E80, been looking at the Hahn HSG-140 made in Two Harbors, Minnesota. price for just the head is about $75,000.

That harvester head for the excavator sounds like a great idea, but $75K?  How many logs do you have to sell to pay for that?  (Serious question).

[DDW_OR]

my motto is "let the machines do the work"

it is just 48 year old me and my 85 year old dad to do the clearing and thinning.
I do the ground work while he runs the equipment.
cutting the tree + delimbing + cutting to length + stacking = LOTS of work.

the Head will be used for the next 10+ years = $7,500 per year. 15 year fixed loan rates are about 4.25%, i earn 7.5%

[OntarioAl]

Rank
I read this thread several times.
I see your view point about piling and burning your fence row timber being a waste but the reality is no logger or mill owner will even contemplate using fence row timber.
The damage  liability and potential injury to employees and machinery  that even one piece of metal can cause is not worth the risk.
The saw miller gave you excellent advice sell it for firewood or pile and burn it.
Since you live in Southern Ontario which is infested with "greenies" I am surprised that nobody is giving you grief about cutting it. As for piling and burning the County may force you to haul it to a landfill site where there are tipping charges.
Up here in North Western Ontario some Municipalities have bylaws which prohibit the removal of timber along property lines if the adjoining landowner objects. So much for paying your property taxes.
Good Luck with your project
Al

[rank]

Hi AL.  We own both sides of the fence so the neighbor isn't an issue.  I hear what you're saying about the greenies but as far as I know, nobody in my local area has had a problem yet and there's fence line removal going on all the time.  Besides, this particular fence line and wood lot is out of sight.

We're still allowed to burn here, but I hear up toward Ottawa they are prohibited.  Not sure if that's true or not. 

With regard to the metal, yes that's the firs thing I learned after joining this forum.  I will be careful what gets sawed.

[Rural]

There is good money to be made here in Ontario from hardwood fence row trees..... it called firewood! With Hardwood firewood selling up to $70 - $90 a face cord why would you bother to even try for lumber? Contact a few firewood suppliers in your area they may buy the trees standing or if you drop them as 'tops' ..... or just block it and sell locally you should have no trouble finding buyers if you keep the price reasonable.

[rank]

There is good money to be made here in Ontario from hardwood fence row trees..... it called firewood! With Hardwood firewood selling up to $70 - $90 a face cord why would you bother to even try for lumber?

$70 for 32 cu ft.  That comes from a log about 2 ft diameter x 5 feet long depending on how much air you stack in it?  Same size log is what......125 board feet?  Even of I only get If I get $.55/board foot for the log, I've matched the firewood price and I don't have to split it.  Am I thinking correct or not?  Is an oak log worth $.55/board foot?

[Magicman]

Here, even if you "jump butt" the stem to get well above the fence the blue stained tannic acid will still show and the buyers will not touch it.

[Ron Wenrich]

It comes out to about $500/Mbf for the logs.  Some logs are worth that, some aren't.  All depends on grade and how well they're prepared.  A 5' log has no value as a log, since they need a minimum size of 8' plus trim.  They also have to be pretty clean for the better money.

The problem you have is that loggers and mills have told you they weren't interested in the logs.  That pretty well takes care of your log markets.  The next best market is firewood, which requires more labor, but has better utilization.

[rank]

It comes out to about $500/Mbf for the logs.  Some logs are worth that, some aren't.  All depends on grade and how well they're prepared.  A 5' log has no value as a log, since they need a minimum size of 8' plus trim.  They also have to be pretty clean for the better money.

The problem you have is that loggers and mills have told you they weren't interested in the logs.  That pretty well takes care of your log markets.  The next best market is firewood, which requires more labor, but has better utilization.

There is no doubt some of them will end up as firewood.  Just trying to do the best I can.  I got about six 40 footers on the ground yesterday afternoon.  The first job will be to mill some pillars for my front porch.  That job is long overdue and I suspect I will learn alot about what makes a milling log.  Thanks again for all the help everyone.