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How does a small sawyer determine the market value for logs delivered?

Started by scsmith42, January 05, 2017, 10:53:18 AM

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scsmith42

How does a small sawyer determine the market value for logs delivered from a logger?

I'm familiar with the Hardwood Market Report, but from what I've seen it lists the prices for green and KD lumber, not the prices paid for logs.  Something like an HMR for logs is what I'm wondering if it exists.

OR - is there a standard number assumed for milling costs, that can be deducted from the HMR prices in order to determine the market price per bd ft for logs?

I have a general idea of what the values are, but do not have any visibility into what the trends are.  When I buy from a concentration yard I'm paying their markup and handling costs, but this does not tell me what they are paying. 

In the past I've purchased from other operations or concentration yards because I have not been able to efficiently unload a log truck.  Instead I'm transporting myself in smaller quantities (10 tons or so at a time). A new loader acquisition is going to allow me to unload log trucks efficiently, so I am exploring opportunities to purchase direct from some loggers but don't know how to determine the market prices.

Are there any regional reports available that can provide some guidance for what a smaller sized sawmill operation should expect to pay for logs delivered to their yard, based upon log quality?

I'm primarily interested in white oak grade log pricing.

Thx.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

drobertson

Best bet might be to go to a few local mills and ask what they are paying,  prices will vary depending on grade, you might be looking at prices from .50 cents/ bdft to over a buck,
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

VT_Forestry

We subscribe to Timber-Mart South, which is a quarterly publication by University of Georgia.  I don't think it will get you into specific prices for grades, but it will give a species breakdown by state on the average going rate for stumpage and delivered mill prices.
Forester - Newport News Waterworks

TKehl

Does this help?

https://forestry.ces.ncsu.edu/forestry-price-data/

Stumpage prices, not cut or delivered.  I'm betting you know the high number.  This could help estimate the low end to help find the middle.

Another thought is, paying the same as you pay the yard, but getting it delivered is already a win.
In the long run, you make your own luck – good, bad, or indifferent. Loretta Lynn

Ron Wenrich

Are you planning to grade logs?  If so, I've found that a rule of thumb would be the price at a grade lower than the lumber you expect.  For example, your prime or #1 grade logs would be priced at 1 Com.  #2 at 2 Com and your #3 would be below pallet.  That could be a starting point.  A lot is going to depend on your yield, your markets and your production costs. 

If you're looking for specialty logs, then that's a different pricing scheme.  You want it high enough to attract sellers,, since there is an extra step that needs to be taken by the logger.  If it isn't worth his while, he won't separate them out.

The other thing you can do is call around to the local mills and see what they're paying.  To attract sellers, you'll have to be in that ballpark or they'll pass you by. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

paul case

I have a little different take on log pricing.

I buy logs at prices that let me make sawing cost plus. I have 4 different markets for lumber and cants and know what each pays. So I plan to buy logs that will pay me what It would pay to saw it for someone else. Grade logs I try to average a little more since it must  make a certain grade for me to make out. I have neighbor mills that assign each log a grade and a different price for each grade. That is good. I buy logs at $.35/bdft for all oak and other species excluding walnut and cedar. I buy grade oak logs for $.50/bdft 16'' sed and bigger with 2 or more clear sides. I hardly ever get a good white oak but we do saw a lot of post oak into ties, grade. and pallet material.

Some white oak stave logs here will bring $1.50bdft. I have sold a couple lately at $1.30 and $1.10.

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

YellowHammer

I buy both from accumulation yards and loggers.  The accumulation yards are always considered the high end due to their markup.  I use this price to negotiate with loggers.  Most of the time the markup is at least a grade, vs what loggers get, with the bottom end at tie log prices. So the tie price is the low end, accumulation yard is the high end, and I try to get somewhere in the middle.  This all falls apart for walnut and white oak, which are the two highest value logs around here, right now.  In these cases, I usually have loggers call me up trying to work the deal, and since I know what the accumulations yards are paying, I can get what I want for a reasonable price. 
I've seen white oak stave logs here for $1.64, under 30 inches.  Apparently the stave companies slightly drop the value of white oak over 30 inch, which gives me a chance to buy bigger logs cheaper. 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

4x4American

I get the log street journal to give me an idea what others are paying.




Keep in mind, HMR gives prices for truckload and greater qtys of graded lumber, FOB sawmill.
Boy, back in my day..

Peter Drouin

A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

scsmith42

All, thanks for the insight.  Something like the "Log Street Journal" but for the SE is what I was wondering existed.  4 x 4 and Peter - thanks for the reference.

TKehl, thanks for the NC State link; I've bookmarked that for future reference.  Knowing the prices on the stump helps to understand the street value of the logs. 

Ron, yes re grading.  Typically we are seeking white oak sawlogs for quartersawing, with small ends greater than 20".  Additionally we will buy lower grade logs for trailer decking, blocking, etc, and oversize logs for slabbing.  The low and intermediate grade oak logs typically are bought for 300 to 500 per thousand, but the high grade prices seem all over the map based upon what we hear of the market.  Having better visibility to the log prices will help us source more competitively.

YH and Paul, thanks for the price info.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

4x4American

I never knew the Log Street Journal existed until Peter told me about it.  It is a good asset.  I may be in the next issue on the log buyers list, not sure though. 
Boy, back in my day..

killamplanes

Here in illinois the dnr has a publication. Stump age price and delivered to mill price. Those of us that are loggers fill out a sheet of are last 6 months prices and mills do same. It's always about a year behind but pretty good info.  I use to pay attention to it but I move enough logs and buy enough timber that it's not current enough to be more than what it is a "report" of past markets. I also have mill but I pay basically what I would receive at another mill. Where I save is I haul those logs back home and don't have the transportation cost incurred to other mills. I only retain maybe 5-10% for my own mill.  If you pay to much you will be unloading log trucks all day. Pay to little you will be constantly looking for logs.  Pay up for the logs you want, be cheap on logs you don't, loggers will figure it out from there. Just do it carefully. Expecially if other mills are just down the road, my2c blocking here .25-.30, tie starts at .50, grade .40-.80, w/o and walnut just depends
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

carykong

As a small sawyer (that would be me too), I would concentrate on relationships with residential tree removers and clearing companies.  Pay cash and remember good logs will give you good boards.

scsmith42

What do y'all normally see for the price difference between stumpage price and delivered to the mill price?
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

killamplanes

Here its about half for blocking thru grade, the better w/o walnut 60% or so. Example average 20in red oak standing in timber, averages 50 cents bdft, all the way up the tree. Scales 300 bdft doyle. Worth 150 dollars. Land owner gets 75 bucks, logger 75 bucks at mill.  Of course just example.
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

killamplanes

When I say 60% for w/o walnut that would mean value percentage of tree given to landowner the other 40% to logger. Of course very general numbers I'm giving here.
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

Ron Wenrich

Depends on grade.  Generally, low grade taken to mills is sold at a loss over stumpage.  I remember when cherry was really hot, the state sold a sale of nice cherry for $3.25/bf.  Every log that went to a mill was sold for a loss, no matter the grade.  Stumpage is set more in the veneer value. 

Mills have to buy logs at a price where they can make money, and get a stable amount of logs to keep the mill running.  Many a mill has shut down because they couldn't get a decent log supply.  If you think you can make money buying stumpage, then buy it and have it contract logged.  The big mill in the area buys stumpage, but doesn't have a single logging crew.  Even some of the smaller mills have gone this route. 

If you're looking at specialty logs, then you should have a decent idea of what your yield is.  Quartersawing white oak is a specialty market, as is slabbing big logs.  We have a local guy with a specialty mill that slabs big logs.  He is known to have paid 5 figures for a log, and has bought them in Europe and the West coast.  But, he has markets where he has sold slabs for 5 figures, so he can afford those logs.  He also quartersaws sycamore.   Your markets dictate price.  Just like markets dictate what loggers can pay for stumpage.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

WDH

Figure about $15/ ton for cut-skid-load (more like $13 - $14/ton down here for high production logging) and add to that about $.14/ ton -mile for every ton hauled.  Say that the logger is hauling the logs from 60 miles away to you.  That would be $.14 x 60 miles = $8.40/ton.  Add the $15/ton for the cut-skid-load (harvesting the trees and loading them onto the truck), and you get $23.40/ton.  One note is that there is usually a minimum haul, that is, the rate for hauling is flat for the first 40 miles, then goes up by $.14/ ton for every mile over that.  In this example, the minimum haul would be set at $5.60/ton.

Logging in the deep South is cheaper than in the North because there are more high production loggers moving 60 to 80 loads per week, it is a pine dominated market, and most of the wood is hauled tree-length, not cut-to-length like you see in the Northern hardwood economy.  Cutting to length adds several more $/ton to the cut-skid-load rate.  This would bring our example rate to more like $26/ton.

Small loggers with low production would have to charge more.  When I had a 12 acre plantation harvested in October, the logger hauled 34 loads in 2.25 days, or at a rate of 15 loads per day.  However, that was for pine, not hardwood.  Northern hardwood loggers that are cutting to length and cable skidding usually cannot produce at this level of production.

Logging may somewhat higher in your part of NC than it is across the deep South, but at least this gives you a feel for some of the numbers. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Ron Wenrich

We had a 2 man crew doing about 3-5 loads per day.  That included veneer, sawlogs, and firewood/pulpwood material.  Cut, skid, buck and load.  Jobs were selective cuts marked by a forester, and not on flat land.  Tops were lopped.  Not all crews are that productive.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

drobertson

Fact is, least around these parts match or beat what others are paying, or watch the loads go by. Fact is again round here, to get grade and only  the grade,  one  don't expect it unless you really pay top end, and or take Some crap with the good. And this depends on your volume. If Onesy and twosy is all you need, not sure what to say. Its competitive, money talks,
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

scsmith42

Very good discussion and information.  Thanks all for sharing your insight.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

moodnacreek

About one third of what you can get for the lumber air dried or one half sold green. But you need a lot of experience to estimate what  you can get from each log. Suspected defects that can not be seen can not be scaled out so you have to lower the price you pay. The mill has to have an honest relationship with the  supplyer , perhaps paying extra when the good stuff comes in. I could go on forever on this subject. It took me along time to get a steady supply of logs.

Larry

Some states track timber price trends and get there info from timber sales, usually government.  In Missouri they publish a report.

https://mdc.mo.gov/sites/default/files/downloads/TPTJanMarch2016.pdf

It used to be monthly delivered to my door.  I got to know the guy the put the report together.  He knew every logger and could tell who was paying what.  A lot more valuable resource than the actual report.

Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

flatrock58

It is hard for me to look at a load of logs and get an estimate of the weight.  What does a full load of say red oak logs, with the large end being 20-23", weight?  And what would you expect to pay for that load?
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WDH

An 18 wheeler load will weigh about 25 to 27 tons.  More than that, the truck would exceed the legal weight limit.  Here is one way that you can do it.  Take a log and measure the butt end and the small end and the length.  Average the butt and the small end and this represents the mid-log diameter.  Go to Forestry Forum tool box and calculate the BF in the log using the Doyle scale.  Then using the calculator for weight, calculate the weight of the log.  Now you have the BF Doyle and the weight. 

So, I developed a table where I could measure the BF Doyle in a log in the field and relate the board footage to the weight of the log.  So all you really have to have is the log length and the small end diameter and the Doyle log rule.  Here is an example:

Open the attached Excel file.  Go to Red Oak.  This is the chart for 10' red oak logs.  So, if you have a red oak log that is 10' long and has a 20" small end diameter, then that log weighs .8335 tons or 1667 pounds and has 160 BF Doyle Scale.  You have to have a chart for each different length for each different species.  Since I am limited to 10.5' board length in my kiln, I have the chart set up for 10' logs.  This works great and is easy as all you need is the chart, the species, the log length, and the small end diameter (inside bark).
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

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