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Contemplating getting a circle mill.

Started by paul case, January 02, 2017, 11:06:54 AM

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Bert

If your regularly sawing ties and have the log volume to support it, then I think the circle mill is a no brainer. I use a handset and you can really jam the wood through it if set up decent. I went from bandmill to circle purely out of production needs and wouldnt go back. If sawing mobile, long logs, and a variety of other factors then it would be a different story. Bandmills definitely have their place and i wouldnt put them down but sawing ties isnt it. The production from a handset in up to say 12' length and 20" diameter or less logs cant be beat unless you go to an automatic mill. I can easily saw 10- 12 ties an hour with 1 helper.
Saw you tomorrow!

ozarkgem

Quote from: paul case on January 05, 2017, 08:31:52 AM
So we have been working on getting better organized to cut more ties in a day. First thing I learned that I wasn't watching real close was Scott only works on the mill about 6.5 hours/day. The second thing he told me that would speed things up would be that the logs were already cut to exact length. Because  I have a different market that needs 10' lumber I try to get all the 10' logs I can. We still get some 9' but very seldom do we get a 8'8'' log.  So Last week I cut about 100 logs to exact length. There were some other things we have been tweaking. Tuesday he cut 22 ties and Wednesday he cut 26 and I cut 8 in between helping him keep sawing. That is in 12'' to 15'' logs so our side lumber is limited and all logs the right length to tie. I have a lot of bigger logs that will tie so our tie count will go down when we cut them later.

Too cold to saw here today and Friday so I guess I am back to feeding the wood stove.

PC
So 2 of you cut 34  ties one day. Bert can cut 10-12 per hr with a hand set and one helper(that would you) . Sounds like  a winner on the circle mill.
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.

paul case

Well,

We had an interesting development yesterday. No one stopped by and no logs came in so we were primarily sawing. Scott has cut 28 several times and seems to be making it ''routine'' to do so. I was able to mil a whole lot more with no one taking me away from it and I cut 20 yesterday. 48 total for the day. I am happy about that!

The difference is we are in about the right sized logs for ties. I never can get to one tie every 5 minutes. I think that can be done easily in the right logs with an offbearer. I probably wont try to find any help since I havnt had very good luck with most that I have tried. I think one thing that may have slowed us down yesterday is we were using bands that had been sharpened twice. They cut ok but dont stay sharp very long. We had to change several times. It avg's a tie every 9 minutes.

What do you think now?

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

Magicman

There is much to be said about hiring/not hiring help.  A consistent productivity level must be maintained for the help to make you $$$ rather than just paying for themselves.  If you gear up for that additional productivity level and the help is a "no show" then you are back to square one with your income $$$.  If you have had poor results finding/keeping reliable help in the past, what has changed for help availability in the future?
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Peter Drouin

A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

paul case

Yeah I have about run out of available family to hire. :D

Probably just keep going and if the The Good Lord sends the right person my way, then give it a try.

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

longtime lurker

Quote from: paul case on January 10, 2017, 12:26:43 PM
Yeah I have about run out of available family to hire. :D

Probably just keep going and if the The Good Lord sends the right person my way, then give it a try.

PC

The Good Lord likely requires a "Help Wanted" sign out the front to come to your aid.

I know a guy had a largish linehaul transport company - couple hundred trucks etc etc. We were talking one day because he was a bit of a mentor to me and I mentioned how rough on the gear some of his drivers were.
He kinda looked at me funny, then stopped and explained it this way: he started out as an owner driver with an old rig, worked hard, looked after his machine, made some money Then he bought another truck, went through ten drivers before he found a good one, they both worked hard, looked after the gear, made money. Then he bought a third truck, went through another ten drivers to find a good one, they all worked hard, looked after the gear and made money. Around about the 10th truck it got hard - Every time he bought another truck he'd go through a dozen drivers before he'd find one that was right, and he had to let the standard slip a little or sometimes he'd have a truck parked up for want of a good driver and trucks that are parked up dont make money. At twenty tucks he had to let the standard slip a little more. And by the time he had a hundred trucks he'd just take anyone with a clean license, toss them the keys to a rig and send them across the country - there was no way he could keep and hold that many good drivers in his fleet at one time.

Then he came out with the most interesting observation, which was that what he really had was about 40 long term good drivers that were looking after their rigs that well that they could average up the 200 rough ones. And he looked at me and was point blank about the fact that those guys - his good drivers - got paid what they were worth, and a bit more because without them he'd go under.

Its something I've always remembered and later as an employer and through observation of other business it seems to be the way of it. Some employees will make you money, some won't. You just got to weed through enough of them to find the ones worth keeping.

Having said that my preference is always to get a better machine. I can budget around a payment jsut as well as I can around wages. The machine always shows up for work, and doesn't complain if I want to run 7 days a week for a couple of months, doesn't want overtime or need insurance etc etc. But I still got to have help to run it because at the end of the day I cant be everywhere at once. But its easier to find one good guy then two good guys.

Look real hard at your processes Paul. Maybe even hire a mill consultant for a look - find someone whos been around the industry a long time and seen a lot of different setups. The question is how to upgrade your processes so that when you find the right help you get your moneys worth out of them... and make more money through improved efficiency until you find them.

My show chokes on the greenchain between the sawbench and the docking saw. Another 12' of greenchain there would mean 2 men could handle the same output that it currently takes three to achieve. Which would mean the third man could then drive the loader/ tend customers/ make life easy for everyone else... or stay there stacking and with another 2 man crew to do the logging then we'd run continous instead of stopping to go cut trees down for two days a week and I could double mynoutput off the same equipment.
Problem being an extra 12' of greenchain in there would mean a whole new building to fit it. But hey... I'm aware of the issue and you can bet I'm looking for the right place to buy so I can do a new building with that extra 12' of greenchain.

It's little things like that you need to attend to first. Theres an old saying in sawmills around here goes "you can't eat faster then you can 6!@#%^&*" (sorry Jeff but thats what it is) meaning money spent on new or more saws is wasted unless the entire process - everything from the log yard to the chip pile is upgraded enough to handle it. And the choke points are always in the back of the mill, guaranteed.

The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Ron Wenrich

I did a gig in Newark, NJ where a good deal of the workers were on work release from the local jail.  We went through a lot of workers that just weren't up for the task.  But, I did run into some really good guys.  One I taught how to saw, and he made a good one.  Others were good enough to buck logs, work on equipment, and sort and stack lumber the way it should be.  Many of them had run ins with the law that ranged from DUI to drugs.  But, they were all clean and they showed up to work every day, since the alternative was worse.  They didn't collect their paycheck.  It was sent to the law enforcement, since they weren't allowed to have any money.  The state actually offset their wages, so they were a cheap form of labor.

Guys off the street are often looking for a position, or just looking for something for short term.  They usually don't last long and are often undependable.  We got a lot of guys "looking" for work, but actually wanted us to sign their paper to show they were looking for work and they could continue to collect unemployment.

The big local mill sends a bus to the county jail to get their work release workers.  If you can get past the fact that they broke the law and got caught, you might find some really decent workers.  You'll know if they'll work out after the first day.

The other thing that I like is to give a bonus for good production.  I worked at a couple of mills that did that.  More than one worker told me that they won't bust hump for the same amount of money.  We based ours on where the mill made a good profit, then added to the workers paycheck.  Give the guy an extra dollar for going the extra mile is a good incentive.   
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

longtime lurker

Way OT here but when I incorporated I set it up with 30% of the stock in a particular share class with no voting rights attached (ie I control that stock and vote that stock and have right of first refusal to purchase that stock, but the dividend from that stock goes to the named stockholder). I did that specifically for employee participation, because its more tax effective (here - your milage may vary) for both the business and the employee that way.

It's a good incentive for a long term employee to be invested in the business. No-one works harder then a guy who's working for himself, and tying the "bonus" to profitability rather then just productivity has a few upsides with regard to how the gear is treated: the emphasis shifts to getting the most at the lowest cost rather then flogging the equipment for a production bonus. When we do good we do good, when we hurt we all hurt together, and it means the guys who hang about get the same benefit I do from upgrades etc. Being a shareholder also changes the insurance system from employee to owner status, and a few other benefits like that as well that work for all concerned.

It might not be to everyones taste but me - I set out this time to build a good small mill and I knew I needed a good small staff at the core. And I knew that to hold that good small staff longterm I had to make it worth all our whiles. Too many people incorporate to suit their needs today... this time I thought ahead 20 years to when I can be the sawmill rouseabout who goes fishing a couple days a week.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

bandmiller2

Paul, you could look for retired folks to help around the mill. I don't mean the ones with walkers, there are many who can work and enjoy a job. For the most part as dependable as an old John Deere tractor. They show up when needed and what they earn is extra so you don't feel guilty if things slow down for a spell. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

paul case

I have worked with the geriatric hay crew for most of my life. My thought is old folks get it done. Look at the average age of Forumites here and I bet it is above 55.      Nothing wrong with that. One of the best employees I ever had was 62.  My parents are both in that age bracket and neither want anything to do with sawmilling except to need a spare board now and then.

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

4x4American

I think you're onto something there quite Frankly
Boy, back in my day..

ozarkgem

Quote from: paul case on January 11, 2017, 08:20:02 AM
I have worked with the geriatric hay crew for most of my life. My thought is old folks get it done. Look at the average age of Forumites here and I bet it is above 55.      Nothing wrong with that. One of the best employees I ever had was 62.  My parents are both in that age bracket and neither want anything to do with sawmilling except to need a spare board now and then.

PC
Paul I fall into the geriatric hay crew. I made 100.00 a week last year owning a mill. How much are you paying? ;D
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.

paul case

life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

killamplanes

One of my full time employees is 70 yrs old. He is not the fastest (the college kid that works for me holds that title) but at 70 he doesn't look at things as a race but a marathon. I hope he stays the way he is for years to come. You would guess he's 50yrs old..
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

thecfarm

But I think I would rather work with a 70 year old man than some much younger. The old one will probably step up and see you need help without being asked or told.  :) But than again you never know either.
I had one guy at a job,could see I needed a hand at 100 feet away and come over and help. While one 5 feet away would have no idea.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

moodnacreek

There are hand set mills that are semi automatic.  The dogs, tapers, and set shaft jog are push button. also would have a log turner.  You just can't set on the fly.

paul case

Well I am not getting a circle saw. I have been sawing some on my old mill while Scott saws with the new one. We have made pretty good time sawing out some weekly orders and made more time for us to saw out ties and grade. Getting right along with 2 bandmills.

Thanks for the input.

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

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