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Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing

Started by YellowHammer, December 27, 2016, 01:02:45 AM

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Magicman

I RRQS all day today.  There were times when I had the cant up onto the Side Supports, and times that I had the cant up onto the Log Clamp.  When the cant wanted to be contrary, I just showed it who was boss and sawed that sucker anyway.  There really are no rules as long as you follow the growth rings and rays.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

YellowHammer

MM,
That is the key!  8)

I consider it freestyle sawing!  Thats why I like it so much.  Its a "do what it takes, find the figure, run it down and don't let it get away" kind of thing. 

I would have like to watch you work the logs.  I hope it turned out well.     

Tburch,
Thanks for giving it a go, maybe using a Cooks it should be called FRQS (Forward Roll Quartersawing).  Main thing, as MM says, manipulate the cant any way you can to get the rays lined up.  Full power to the hydros would be useful, though.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

tburch

I was able to complete the oak I started on.  Very happy with the results.  Lots of big wide flecks.  Several narrower boards, but for a 19" log, it was a good one to start with and practice on.   I got a few boards with great figure that defied the rules of nature.  I was off a bit when cutting along the rays, for example, the top of the board face lined up with the ray, but the bottom didn't, so much, but I still got great figure on the bottom of the boards, and the rays were only running about 1/2 the width of the board before they exited the face of the board.   Go figure.   Perhaps the grain twisted just inside the end of the board and lined the ray with the face up better - I didn't take the time to inspect at the time- the saw was still running. 

Time will get me faster rolling the log.  I sawed with the roll to the right and left, depending on what needed cutting next, or which roll prohibited me from cutting a certain direction.   The Cooks saws doesn't allow much overhang past the log stops on the right side (the side of the fixed guide).    I didn't take any pictures.   There wasn't THAT much waste, and what waste there was nice and clean and even pretty good looking, if you are looking for quarter sawn wedges.  ;)   I haven't edged the wedges from the sides of the boards yet either.  I'll do that after it dries. 

The next same-size oak log in the queue is much larger diameter, but has too many big limb knots to mess with cutting for figure.  I might be able to cut 1/3 to 1/2 of it for figure. 
Peterson 10" WPF with slabber. Cooks AC36 Diesel.
'94 Ford 4830 Diesel 2WD & FEL.  Norse 450 skid winch.  Logrite fetching arch.  Fransgard Forestry Grapple.

YellowHammer

I'm glad you had success.  There is a learning curve, but sounds like you have gotten the hang of it.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

WDH

Quote from: tburch on November 20, 2017, 04:16:08 PM
I was off a bit when cutting along the rays, for example, the top of the board face lined up with the ray, but the bottom didn't, so much, but I still got great figure on the bottom of the boards, and the rays were only running about 1/2 the width of the board before they exited the face of the board.   Go figure.   

That is why it is important to have the pith the same distance from the bed on both ends of the log.  If a log is very crooked, this can be very difficult or impossible to do because the pith wanders with the shape of the log.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Magicman

I QS'ed one last week where the pith was on one side of the log and on the complete opposite side on the other end.  No matter.  I measured from the bed leveling the pith and the sawing was successful.  Yup, there was sapwood waste, but the QS yield was acceptable.

You must pay attention to what the log gives you and make adjustments accordingly.  Remember with all sawing, the log is the boss.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

PA_Walnut

Put a 24" red oak up the other day and did RRQS on it. Centered the heart...was off about 1". Every single boards coming off was (new term: RWR="riddled with rays". )

Seemed like with 10-15° of vertical grain was necessary, allowing 2-3 cuts before rolling it.

A prior mistake I was making is not keeping the rollers up that I leveled with, thus causing the rays to drop-off at one end.

I'm very thankful for my edger for this process. Without it, the labor would increase a lot (or the end result wouldn't be so pretty) unless straight-lining it like Yellow does.

More big oaks on deck, read to go over the coming days. 4' diameter sycamores on the way. (Thanksgiving is a fine time to round-up family for some saw time!)  :D

smiley_turkey_dancing
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

YellowHammer

I'm glad you had success. 
Leveling the pith and and staying level is an important foundation for the process.  Straight logs can be leveled pretty quick, funky ones take a couple round trips from one end of the log to the other with a tape measure to get it right.

I like to be at least within 1/4" to 1/8" to the apparent center of the pith. That's also why I like to make my first opening cut by measuring up from the bed as with conventional techniques, but then double checking the distance by measuring down from the just completed cut to the pith.  If I'm off a little, it's easy to tweak the toe board and make a quick skim cut.  Generally, I only have to measure and check the first two 90° faces so it goes fairly quick.  It's also important to make sure the gunbarreling cuts are pith level also, but that's easy because if the 90° faces are correct, then the gunbarrelled corner cut will look very straight and not be tapered.  If there is a taper, then it should be corrected.  Typically I will make these cuts by eye.

Also, it's important to not take off too much sapwood when gunbarreling, as sometimes that is the best QS figure. 

Edging is a pain.  However, since I don't do it when the boards come off the mill because seems like although QS will dry flat, it will generally curve, I found I was edging twice, once off the mill then again when we dress the kiln dried boards.  So now I just skip the edging off the mill unless it's an easy board, and just handle it after drying with the SLR. 


YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

WDH

The "C" curves with quartersawing is just part of the the price for fantastic wood.  Getting all the juvenile wood out will greatly reduce this curve, but it will not totally eliminate it.  I find that some boards have to be cut in half lengthwise, but that does not hurt sales as these shorter boards are fine for most furniture projects.  I have always edged green off the mill, but one my next WO log, I just might wait until dry, then edge.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

ellmoe

Quote from: YellowHammer on November 22, 2017, 08:05:25 AM
Edging is a pain.  However, since I don't do it when the boards come off the mill because seems like although QS will dry flat, it will generally curve, I found I was edging twice, once off the mill then again when we dress the kiln dried boards.  So now I just skip the edging off the mill unless it's an easy board, and just handle it after drying with the SLR. 

    We quit edging to final size all green hardwood as they come off the mill. I found out that much of my kd hardwood was being re-edged down a size because of drying stresses. Now we edge of the "ugly" to reduce wasted space in the stack and directly stack all other boards. We edge after drying and see increased yields and easier planing/moulding.
Thirty plus years in the sawmill/millwork business. A sore back and arthritic fingers to prove it!

randy_atx

Quote from: Larry on February 06, 2017, 11:09:07 AM
Rings mean nothing.  I always mark the rays (red marks) for the best flake.



After a while it becomes clear as too which log will be the easiest to quarter saw.  It is also helpful to look at both ends of the log. 

The thickness of the rays are also an excellent predictor of flake quality.  The thicker the ray the better.


How do you locate the rays with this technique? Serious question.  Thanks
Stihl 661 CM with 36" bar, Alaskan MK III

terrifictimbersllc

If you look closely at the end of a WO log you will see a lot of  tiny cracks. Saw parallel to these cracks.  That is if you want to use the end as a guide. 
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

xlogger

I found the video that Poston put on youtube about Jake quartersawing, is there a next part to it? Only see to the point where you level up the log. I've got a nice white oak and sycamore that would be a good one to try this. Not sure since it looks like I'd be spending a good bit of time edging, since I don't have an edger.
Timberking 2000, Turbo slabber Mill, 584 Case, Bobcat 773, solar kiln, Nyle L-53 DH kiln

samandothers

Randy

Look at post 69 in this thread shows a good picture of the ray running perpendicular to the growth rings.

PA_Walnut

Got some pretty good results the other day on a lower-value, smaller-sized red oak. Centered it up within 1/4 inch or so, cut through the pith, pushed the top half off and it slid into the arms in one action (just the savings on my back makes this technique SWEET!).

Almost every single board came off looking great. Could get 2-3 cuts before rolling again. Here's some of the RRQS porn, after coming off the edger onto sticks.





I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

WDH

Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

YellowHammer

Those are some real nice looking boards.  You've got this now. 8)
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Darrel

PA_Walnut, you keep that up and you're going to have to change your name to PA_Oak.  :)
1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

D6c

Funny, the other day I sawed a red oak...cut about 1/2 of the log as 1/4 sawed but there wasn't any fleck at all.  Wasn't using the RRQS method but they were good qtr. sawed cuts.

Sixacresand

"Sometimes you can make more hay with less equipment if you just use your head."  Tom, Forestry Forum.  Tenth year with a LT40 Woodmizer,

PA_Walnut

Thanks. Not sure it was me or a forgiving log, but gonna do more tomorrow and will report back. Thanks for the encouragement!  8)

Love the results. Thanks Yellow!
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

samandothers

Very nice!  I believe you have grabbed the pebble!

Crusarius

can anyone post oa pic of the waste from this technique? I see beautiful boards but really curious what the waste / leftovers looks like.

scsmith42

Quote from: Crusarius on November 29, 2017, 12:54:38 PM
can anyone post oa pic of the waste from this technique? I see beautiful boards but really curious what the waste / leftovers looks like.

I would post some pix but we just finished cleaning up the slab pile!  You won't have much more waste than with traditional quartersawing - probably 50% more.  Usually I estimate a 30% loss of yield when QS'ing.

But here is the thing about the waste - the definition of a quartersawn board is based upon the angle of the growth rings to the face of the board - not the amount of ray fleck.  However most purchasers of QS lumber desire the high amount of ray fleck.  Using the traditional methods of quartersawing usually yields 30% high fleck material, 30% low fleck QS, and 30% rift.  There is a limited market for low fleck QS.  By using Robert's reverse roll method you can yield a much greater percentage of high fleck QS, which you can sell for a higher price as compared with low fleck or rift.  So even though you may have a bit more waste, you can still net out a greater profit because you can charge more for the high fleck boards.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

PA_Walnut

True'dat!

Quartersawn is often desired for it's dimensional stability advantage (by instrument makers, etc) but the desirability of the visual generally exceeds the practicality.
As mentioned here, I'd rather have 1 board with lots of fleck, than 2 with mediocre visual appeal. Rift sawn materials usually aren't desired, however, I really like using it for rails and stiles in order to focus more attention on the panels!  8)


Quote from: scsmith42 on December 01, 2017, 11:10:06 AM
Quote from: Crusarius on November 29, 2017, 12:54:38 PM
can anyone post oa pic of the waste from this technique? I see beautiful boards but really curious what the waste / leftovers looks like.

I would post some pix but we just finished cleaning up the slab pile!  You won't have much more waste than with traditional quartersawing - probably 50% more.  Usually I estimate a 30% loss of yield when QS'ing.

But here is the thing about the waste - the definition of a quartersawn board is based upon the angle of the growth rings to the face of the board - not the amount of ray fleck.  However most purchasers of QS lumber desire the high amount of ray fleck.  Using the traditional methods of quartersawing usually yields 30% high fleck material, 30% low fleck QS, and 30% rift.  There is a limited market for low fleck QS.  By using Robert's reverse roll method you can yield a much greater percentage of high fleck QS, which you can sell for a higher price as compared with low fleck or rift.  So even though you may have a bit more waste, you can still net out a greater profit because you can charge more for the high fleck boards.
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

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