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Author Topic: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing  (Read 11758 times)

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Offline Sixacresand

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Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
« Reply #160 on: October 31, 2017, 07:34:01 pm »
I notice a couple of guys on here trying to figure out a way to waste some of my logs and use me as a lab rat.  :D
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Offline YellowHammer

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Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
« Reply #161 on: October 31, 2017, 10:20:41 pm »
I notice a couple of guys on here trying to figure out a way to waste some of my logs and use me as a lab rat.  :D
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Offline Andries

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Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
« Reply #162 on: October 31, 2017, 11:19:39 pm »
I notice a couple of guys on here trying to figure out a way to waste some of my logs and use me as a lab rat.  :D

..... The trade off is that you do not get as many boards with PERFECT figure like you do with the reverse roll.....


With WDH and YH leading the R&D team - it might become "The Perfect Ten Project".

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Offline dboyt

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Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
« Reply #163 on: November 01, 2017, 09:39:44 am »
Thanks for posting!  I've got some 4' diameter sycamore just begging for the reverse roll technique.  This is one of the best (for me) threads on the forum!
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Offline YellowHammer

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Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
« Reply #164 on: November 01, 2017, 10:06:17 am »
Dboyt, thanks.  This technique works great for big log halves especially if taking sub wedges as I describe below.

This log was a bigger one, and was a full width between the blade guides.  It was milled as a half log, and I started by taking the big wide high fleck boards as usual.  However, when it comes time to do a rotation, especially on a big log, the wedge cuts can get pretty big and there is a risk of wasting a lot of wood, especially if in good fleck.  This is shown in the picture below, by the big black line.  This is too much wood to take off.  So I take small sub wedges to minimize waste, and get as many boards out of the wedges as I can.  I like to target a 4" minimum width on one side.  The thing to remember is that a quarter sawn high fleck board can be taken anytime the grain configuration is correct, and as the half log changes shape, the orientation can get confusing.  So marking with a Sharpie, then still keeping track of the rays will allow proper alignment even when it seems out of shape.  This is especially important when sawing a log that isn't perfectly round or has an oblong grain pattern.



Heres what it looks like when sawing in the picture below.  I marked a 4" line to help with the photo, and made the cut.  This was a forgiving log, and since the cut was reasonably perpendicular to the growth rings, even though the cut wouldn't go exactly through the axis of the log, I still got good fleck on the face of the cut.  I was able to get a 4" and 7" board from the wedge that could have been wasted.  Thats one of the nice things about this technique, no blind sawing, and its easy to stay in the fleck.  The crosshatched areas are the areas I will trim off later after the boards are dried and I run them thorough our Straight Line Rip saw to basically joint both edges prior to sale.



As the cant gets smaller, it will start to look like a pie slice.  I just keep rotating around, and get as much as I can out of it.  There is a tendency to finish too early and set one side on the bed.  If I did that on this piece, I would have too much angle on the rays and probably wouldn't get a high fleck board.  So I rotate it to optimize the fleck, and the hydraulics are strong enough to hold it stable when I get it where I want it.  If you'll look closely, you can see the cant isn't even touching the mill bed, its about an inch above all the bed rails.  In this case, even though cant was suspended between the backstops and clamp, I used the bed rails as a guide to make sure the piece is aligned with the deck.  Otherwise, a taper cut will happen from end to end, and that will throw successive boards off.
 


This is getting near the end, and in this case I like to catch and pinch the tip of the pie slice with the clamp face as it lets me adjust the angle very easily and securely simply by moving the clamp up or down.  Once I get to this size, there is generally quarter sawn fleck on both faces of the pie slice.  So there is no way miss fleck, its a sure thing, now its just a matter of getting as much figure as I can.  As it gets smaller, clamping becomes a little more sporty, but no problems, just keep taking boards until everything is gone.     
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Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
« Reply #165 on: November 01, 2017, 11:45:52 am »
Tried this on a big white oak yesterday and was not able to really get into he fleck as I wanted to and had a LOT of waste. I have to study your postings more/better. I like the plan, just need to learn the game, I suppose. I took some pix that I'll post.
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Offline WDH

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Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
« Reply #166 on: November 01, 2017, 03:51:14 pm »
Scott, that is great information.

I have not been charging for the degree of fleck in QS white oak.  The price is x and the customers pick out what they want. The lower degree of fleck and the higher degree of fleck go at the same price.  It works out, but maybe I need to to price the perfect figure boards at a premium to the average fleck boards.
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Offline scsmith42

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Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
« Reply #167 on: November 01, 2017, 04:35:35 pm »
Tried this on a big white oak yesterday and was not able to really get into he fleck as I wanted to and had a LOT of waste. I have to study your postings more/better. I like the plan, just need to learn the game, I suppose. I took some pix that I'll post.

Seek out the medullary lines on the end of the log first and mark them as Robert did in his photo's.  Also be sure that your pith is centered above the deck on each end of the log.

Mill to intersect the lines you marked on the log or parallel to them.  You should end up with outstanding fleck.
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Offline scsmith42

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Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
« Reply #168 on: November 01, 2017, 04:56:54 pm »
Scott, that is great information.

I have not been charging for the degree of fleck in QS white oak.  The price is x and the customers pick out what they want. The lower degree of fleck and the higher degree of fleck go at the same price.  It works out, but maybe I need to to price the perfect figure boards at a premium to the average fleck boards.

Danny, what I've found is that if you don't differentiate prices, your local customers will sort through the stack and pick out the very best boards and frequently choose the very widest boards.  Then when all you have left is low fleck narrow boards the customers that legitimately wanted high fleck will be disappointed and you'll get a bad rep.  Or you will lose a sale because you were out of high fleck product.  Plus you're leaving $ on the table.

A small percentage of your customer base (say 5%) will want your very best lumber, and they are willing to pay a premium for it.  So let's call these boards "Danny's select QSWO".  You should be able to charge a 15% premium over your regular high fleck for these "hand selected, highest fleck" boards.  Think about log-matched product too.  We have not yet started charging a premium for log matched lumber but it's a big selling point for us.  At some point in the future we will probably start keeping inventory of log matched lumber.

Pricing high fleck 10% - 20% above medium fleck discourages people from grabbing your high fleck boards when they don't really need them (think skirts for tables, seat slats, back sides of cabinets, etc). 

Once the lumber comes out of the kiln, we separate it into high fleck, low/medium fleck, and rift in our inventory room.  It's also separated based upon width (I store the boards vertically which makes it easier to review figure) but some is also stored in bulk.

Pricing wide boards at a premium (we charge more per bd ft in 2" increments for lumber wider than 8") prevents someone from purchasing a 12" wide QS board only to rip it into 2" strips.  I charge twice as much per board foot for a 12" QSWO High fleck board as I do for a 6" board with similar figure.  And why not - it's a rare product and the folks that truly want wide QS will not hesitate to pay for it (think cabinet case sides, table leafs, and single panels for frame and panel doors).  And some guy with a 6" jointer won't be tempted to rip a 12" wide board into narrow strips just because he is trying to end up with a little less waste.  A 12" qs board requires a log at least 30" or so in diameter (after you cut out the sap and pith wood).  These logs are rare, are harder on your equipment and more time consuming to mill.  So you should demand a premium for the product that they produce.

My 2 cents.

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Offline YellowHammer

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Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
« Reply #169 on: November 01, 2017, 11:31:34 pm »
Tried this on a big white oak yesterday and was not able to really get into he fleck as I wanted to and had a LOT of waste. I have to study your postings more/better. I like the plan, just need to learn the game, I suppose. I took some pix that I'll post.

Seek out the medullary lines on the end of the log first and mark them as Robert did in his photo's.  Also be sure that your pith is centered above the deck on each end of the log.

Mill to intersect the lines you marked on the log or parallel to them.  You should end up with outstanding fleck.

Centering pith is something I haven't talked about much but it is a necessary step in any quartersawing process, and the more accurate the alignment, the better the figure.  As done in a conventional QS technique, the first two opening 90° face cuts are made using a tape to measure off the bed to the center of the pith.  This is really an indirect measurement, I.e. measure from the bottom of the log to the pith so that the cut on the top of the log is correct.  Sometimes this is not always accurate.  Generally it's OK, but pith does funny things.  So I'll cut the first 90° faces as accurately as possible measuring from the deck and and then as soon as I cut each, I will double check by taking a direct measurement from the actual cut to the pith on both ends.  If I'm off any appreciable amount I will make a slight adjustment with the toeboards and skim it right before I rotate.  Once I have two dead on faces, then I don't have to use the tape measure anymore, and will use these faces as references for the opposite ones, as well as an gun barrelling or octagon cutting.  It's very important to keep these octagon faces and edges very straight and aligned with the pith and reference faces.  Since the log halfs are rotated and will be supported on the octagon faces and edges, the boards will take on any misalignment and fleck will suffer.

So when I make my first reference cuts, and double check them for accuracy, I will generally mark the most accurate pith to edge face with the Sharpie and that is the one I will place against the bed to make the first cuts to split the log.  Here's a picture of a log I milled today, and you can see the horizontal Sharpie face line I used to indicate the most accurately sawn face so it doesn't get lost in the gun barreling process and I know to rotate it to the bed for the first cuts.  Also, notice how off center the pith is on this log.   



Once I have rotated that marked face to the bed, I will split the log, taking a couple boards above and below, and these should have good fleck on at least on face.  If not, there is a problem.  Generally, these look good and it's time to turn and burn. 

All this take lots of words to describe but in reality it goes pretty fast and is the same steps that that are taken even if using the octagon method.   
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Offline WDH

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Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
« Reply #170 on: November 02, 2017, 06:36:10 am »
Scott,

I am charging a width premium on all lumber, not just QSWO.  I am going to start sorting by fleck as you suggest. 
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Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
« Reply #171 on: November 02, 2017, 06:59:05 am »
Well, so much for my posting the pix of the sawing of white oak, as I suggested...it's rather ominous that my iPhone6 begun to seriously fail as soon as the 8 and X iPhones were announced.  >:( :snowball:

I have some other REALLY big oaks to saw, so want to get this nailed. I will use my regular camera and take some pix of the process again.  :-\

One oak I just got in was about 39" on the small end, so want to be sure to do it justice! There was a little metal in the upper that you can see on the end. Hopefully, the stain doesn't go too far. :(  Ends are anchor-sealed now to minimize degrade, but I'll slice that off when getting to the saw, so I can see the rings, grain orientation, etc.


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Offline YellowHammer

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Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
« Reply #172 on: November 02, 2017, 09:33:03 am »
Looking at the bottom picture of your butt log, that one may be tricky.  The growth rings at the sapwood/heartwood interface are very erratic and change directions a lot, and also I can see the rays are moving a lot.  The more round and predictable the growth rings the more predictable the rays and so the fleck.  Also, it have a very indistinct and confused pith, with one major pith split and another smaller one I'd guess an inch or two to the right.  Oddly, sometimes these types of logs provide great fleck because they have rays are all over the place.

When taking the center pith boards it will be very important to read them on this log (all logs really) as its not unusual to get distinctively different fleck from one side of the board to another, indicating that the log will be unforgiving and that being off just a little on the following rotations will compromise fleck.  This also lets me read the boards and tells you how to get the best fleck.  If all faces have great fleck, then it means the log can be forgiving and I can be a lot more off angle and still gets good fleck.  Less rotations, less wedge cuts, less waste.  I also look to see if the fleck runs down the length of the board, or if it appear and disappears, or if is evenly distributed across the width of the board or more prevalent on the edges of the board.  Generally, once I read these pith boards, it's time to turn and burn.

Since I'm going for high fleck boards, and certainly fleck on one face of every board, its important get a feel for the log, and know when I'm about to get into fleck and more importantly, when I'm about to get out of it.  Its a very visual process, but since it is, feedback is instant and thats what I like about it.

One thing I would suggest is putting a lower value log or two on the mill and getting a feel for the technique, allowing a little more experimentation without the operator stress.  Also, after every board, anticipate how to get better fleck on the next, and make adjustments if required.  If its a low value log, then skim cuts and adjustments to chase fleck are less painful.  I remember the first couple logs I started with, I cut them up pretty aggressively, chasing fleck like a hound chasing a rabbit, until I got the hang of it.  The goal is to get fleck on at least one face of every board, zero misses.  However, if there is a miss, its important to get a feel what adjustments to make. 

However, it all starts with getting good fleck on the pith boards.

Once it clicks, then you'll be amazed how easy it is.
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Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
« Reply #173 on: November 02, 2017, 09:45:56 am »
Thanks much for your investment in explaining this! It looked so easy on your postings that even a caveman could do it!  :D

Yet, I was chasing it HARD when sawing a big white oak the other day and didn't reward me much at all, other than the joy of pushing the top cut off which slide RIGHT INTO the loader arms! SWEET!  8)

I'm gonna go now and snap a few pix of the resultant boards and post so you can see.

Yesterday I was shuffling my log pile around and put aside some nicer red oak 8' shorts, larger enough to quarter and will play with them. I also have some big poplars that I want to quarter...not for fleck, but people sure like them for secondary woods, like drawer bottoms.
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Offline tburch

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Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
« Reply #174 on: November 13, 2017, 03:13:28 pm »
YH, thanks for posting this.   I gave this a try yesterday.  I'm not so new to milling, as I've been using a swing blade for a couple years, but I am fairly new to milling with a band mill - I picked up a used Cook AC36 a couple months ago.  I've only cut a half dozen logs so far. 

I got a 14-15" post oak loaded up and was successful in getting it skinned, and then I cut it in half - great figure, obviously.  But then I stalled in my endeavor and ended up getting sidetracked on other interruptions. 

I see an advantage you Woodmizer guys would have in this technique, versus me, who has a Cooks.   A Cooks has the loader on the right, as the Woodmizer does, but the log stops (Cooks calls them squaring arms) are on the right and the log clamps (y'all have been calling them two plane clamps) are on my left.  So, when I load a log onto the bed, the log clamps actually do the stopping of the rolling movement of the log, and then the clamps (or log turner) can be used to push the log back to the right against the squaring arms.  The blade of the Cooks also runs the same direction as the Woodmizer, so on the Cooks, the hydraulic log clamps are always getting the brunt of the force from the blade going through the log. 

So, that's the big difference - clamping is backwards.    So, I'm situated on the right side of the log, and the moving clamps are on the left side (AKA "the dark side of the log", if you will).  While I worked the controls and attempted to learn how to roll the log, I could not see the clamps.  I don't have a visual for the location (or height) of the clamps because the log is blocking my view, and I was continually having to move around or lean over the bed to see what was happening.   A bit of a time consumer.   And, of course, I'm still getting the feel for all the controls.   And… (yet another excuse…) my log clamps don't seem to be getting full power from the hydraulic system, so that's a bug I am working on with Cooks service right now.   Right now, since my clamps don't have full power, I have to use the chain log turner to move the log against the squaring arms and I'm still working it like a bull in a china shop.  I believe I will need full power to the clamps in order to roll the log/cant, since it will be the clamps that the log will have to roll on.  I think I might even have to make some new caps for my clamps, as they are designed to bite into the log, and not be slippy slidy so the log can slide on them.   Or, can the round side (outer edge) of the log be against my squaring arms?  I guess they could, since most of the weight will always be under the blade. 

Anyway, I'm looking forward to gaining experience with this technique.  Thanks for the time you (and others) have spent documenting the process. 
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Offline Magicman

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Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
« Reply #175 on: November 13, 2017, 08:18:17 pm »
I RRQS all day today.  There were times when I had the cant up onto the Side Supports, and times that I had the cant up onto the Log Clamp.  When the cant wanted to be contrary, I just showed it who was boss and sawed that sucker anyway.  There really are no rules as long as you follow the growth rings and rays.
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Offline YellowHammer

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Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
« Reply #176 on: November 13, 2017, 09:22:40 pm »
MM,
That is the key!  8)

I consider it freestyle sawing!  Thats why I like it so much.  Its a "do what it takes, find the figure, run it down and don't let it get away" kind of thing. 

I would have like to watch you work the logs.  I hope it turned out well.     

Tburch,
Thanks for giving it a go, maybe using a Cooks it should be called FRQS (Forward Roll Quartersawing).  Main thing, as MM says, manipulate the cant any way you can to get the rays lined up.  Full power to the hydros would be useful, though.
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