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Author Topic: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14  (Read 2557 times)

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Offline Dieseltim

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Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« on: December 25, 2016, 04:20:54 pm »
Well it has been a year now but I finally got started on clearing the land so, I can start to build my Belsaw M-14. This mill used to belong to a friend of mine that had passed away about 12 years ago. I happened by chance to find it again last year in a agricultural newpaper for sale. I had to drive half way across the state, but I just had to get it back.

It was originally built on a wooden frame, but it had rotted for age. So, I'm rebuilding it with a steel frame.




I'll try to upload pictures as I make progress on it.

Tim

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2016, 05:38:37 pm »
Good for you Tim!

We will be happy to see your progress.
What are you going to power it with?

PC
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Offline Dieseltim

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2016, 07:48:23 pm »
I'm planning to use either use a Mercedes 5cylinder turbo diesel engine or a Cummins 4cylinder turbo diesel engine.

Tim

Offline Blaszer

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2016, 08:34:14 pm »
I just bought one last year and moved it to my place..I absolutely love it....Its a wood frame and currently pto drive..Planning on using a 4 cyl John Deere diesel..( Im not a Deere guy but the price is right)

Offline jeep534

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2016, 06:39:09 am »
Tim,
  Welcome,  I will be following along with this build. you are getting started right with pictures  8) I have a friend in Griffen  ( david jackson)  anyway the mercedes / 4bt  is very interesting to me as I am currently  putting a mercedes om617 into my jeep.

Good Luck
archie

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2016, 07:12:14 am »
Tim, be aware of the engine rotation, an engine mounted behind the mill will be turning the wrong way, as they are designed for tractor PTO. You can set the engine on the sawyers side and have proper rotation, but if your milling alone you will have to walk around the engine. If you can choose a diesel with a variable speed governor not just a limiting speed one you will be much better off. Somewhere on the internet I have seen Belsaw manual free to read. Frank C.
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Offline Dieseltim

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2016, 07:45:27 am »
Bandmiller2,

  Yes, I have the manual  and any other info I could about setting up this mill reprinted snd put into a binder to help me get it right the first time, so I understand how it should be assembled.

  As for the rotation of the engine vs blade, I have read and seen video where the use a rear axle diff to change the rotation. I'm thinking that locking the spider gears would be best. Still thinking about using the oem brakes to stop the shaft rotation when I don't want it to move.

  Lots of things to work out as the time comes. Right now I'm trying to focus on the frame. 6 X 12 inch 3/8 thick box tubing. For a total of 66 ft of frame. I should be able to cut up to 24 plus

Offline Don P

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2016, 09:07:03 am »
I've got a '92 timberking M-14 that came on steel from the factory. The track on those is 3/16x10" C channel. Tube should be more rigid and better, mine is lighter than I like. I'd like to see how you do the husk bearing and feed area, I need to get over and pick up an older one that I think will be parts for mine, but you never know.

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2016, 08:01:19 am »
Tim I have a soft spot for the Belsaw mills, I built my first circular mill back in the early 80's before computers and this forum all I had was a copy of the Belsaw instructions. I copied a lot of Belsaw stuff just made it heavier. Really pay attention when they tell you about log and cant turning, not flipping them on the mill, but using flip up log turners. The tiny rollers under the carriage are sensitive to pounding and shock. Two of my friends have Belsaws one of them just has it sitting on RR ties for a foundation and has no problems, but a good foundation is mo better. Frank C.
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Offline jeep534

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2016, 09:16:03 am »
I have a question that I have never seen asked anywhere. what type of bearings are on the arbor i am guessing it is different with different vintages of mills and are replacements easily available.

Happy Hunting

archie 

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2016, 08:34:34 pm »
Archie, the ones I've seen use a two bolt common flange type bearings, if I recall 1 3/4". The older Belsaws used a wooden bed you made by nailing together 2x10" planks. The flange type bearings were bolted to the side of those planks. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Offline Don P

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2016, 10:57:03 pm »
This is the outboard bearing and lead adjustment on mine,


I keep a spare feed drive belt wired up inside the frame.

Offline jeep534

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2016, 11:17:18 pm »
Don P,
          That is what i am talking about.   Those are the housings I am wondering if anyone has had to replace the bearings and if they were readily available.

Thank you
archie

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2016, 12:16:40 am »
Looks like a standard press in bearing that can be had from any bearing store.
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Offline Don P

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2016, 10:18:24 am »
It is just a garden variety bearing. Looks like I'm going to have fun when that goes. If that adjustment plate were to crack or fail I don't think it would be too hard to weld up something. Do notice the top of the bearing housing figures into your track height in relation to your cutting height. You need a little room for leveling the shaft. Keep all that as low as possible so the track can pass over closer to the arbor.

Offline Remle

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2016, 10:48:01 am »
Archie, the ones I've seen use a two bolt common flange type bearings, if I recall 1 3/4". The older Belsaws used a wooden bed you made by nailing together 2x10" planks. The flange type bearings were bolted to the side of those planks. Frank C.
Their is a free PDF of the M 14 on this site "http://www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/detail.aspx?id=1050" although it is the wood frame foundation the layout measurements would be the same for a metal base along with the part number used. If my memory serves me right the bearing flips 90 degrees and comes out two slots on the back side of the flange.

Offline Dieseltim

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2017, 08:26:55 am »
Well even with some rain this past week I did make some progress.  I fixed the hydraulic leak on the old Dresser TD 7 dozer, and made several repairs to Dad's boom truck. The dozer was needed to help level out the ground for the mill to sit on and the boom truck was needed to off load the steel. We still have some work to do on the boom truck but a few new relays should help it out next week. I had loaded most of the smaller pieces of steel with my tractor but the bigger ones will have to be loaded with the boom truck to move them here to my place. The steel has been over at a friend's farm for several years now. I bought it as scrap metal about 10 years ago and didn't have a place to store it. So, now that I have a need for it I have to move it 3 miles to get it home.

Offline Dieseltim

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2017, 07:11:20 pm »


Got the first load of steel. Now if it will dry out again, maybe I can get it unloaded.

We did need the rain but it makes it hard to get outside projects done. Oh well I just have to wait for it to dry up.

Offline Don P

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2017, 08:59:06 pm »
Sweet, that oughta work.

Offline Dieseltim

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2017, 09:27:06 pm »


Got a few more loads of steel unloaded this past weekend.




Offline Dieseltim

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2017, 09:29:29 pm »


I think we have a good start now.

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2017, 06:45:30 pm »
nice load of steel. be nice to see the progress. thanks.
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Offline Darrel

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2017, 10:32:28 pm »
Goin'ta be the stoutest belsaw M-14 ever!
1992 LT40HD

The winds of change are blowing at hurricane force and I don't like it but good shall come even though I see not how.

Offline Don P

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2017, 11:32:24 pm »
I mean.
That pile makes me... green.

Offline Joe Hillmann

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2017, 11:57:05 am »
Bandmiller2,

 
  As for the rotation of the engine vs blade, I have read and seen video where the use a rear axle diff to change the rotation. I'm thinking that locking the spider gears would be best. Still thinking about using the oem brakes to stop the shaft rotation when I don't want it to move.


I haven't read the entire thread so maybe someone already pointed this out but, you can't weld the spider gears, all that would do is make it a solid axle.  If you want to use the rearend as a reverser you you have to lock up the drive shaft or carrier.  That way the spider gears can reverse the rotation from one side of the rearend to the other side.

 Or you could mount a brake on the drive shaft to use a clutch to engage and disengage one side of the rearend from the other.  But that only works if you have a brake or enough load on the side you want to disengage.

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2017, 04:01:58 pm »
Joe, not my post about welding spider gears, I don't do that. I have on occasion locked one side axle which, as you stated, is the proper way. There are so many things that can be done with a differential, I have seen dandy log loaders using one side brake as a clutch. Frank C.
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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2017, 05:31:00 pm »
I take the smaller ones out of old garden tractors to use as
steering reverses.

 

  
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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2017, 02:46:35 pm »
Simple turn the rear end over and you reverse the rotation lock up the spiders cut one axel off and you have a angle drive  .
A bunch of chainsaws a BT6870 processer and not near enough time

Offline Dieseltim

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2017, 11:15:54 pm »
Gearbox you are right on. That is exactly what I'm planning to do. Once the axle is locked I will see which side rotates in the direction I want, then connect that up to the end of the arbor on the mill. The rear axle rotates both sides forward, so if you flip the axle housing over then they both rotate the other direction. What was up, is now down so to speak.  Lol

Offline Dieseltim

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2017, 09:51:36 pm »
s the weather is getting better and the fact that it was a full moon last night, I got more done than I usually do.


Offline Dieseltim

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2017, 09:56:44 pm »
borrowed a miller bobcat welder/ generator from a buddy of mine this afternoon, so if the weather will clear off again, I'll start welding the frame together.


Offline Darrel

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2017, 10:08:49 am »
Good to see some progress!  That steel looks to be quite strong.
1992 LT40HD

The winds of change are blowing at hurricane force and I don't like it but good shall come even though I see not how.

Offline Dieseltim

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2017, 01:11:36 pm »
Yes, Darrel. It is 6x 12" 3/8 thick. Each beam is close to 2000 lbs. Its all my tractor can do to pickup one beam. Good thing we have a boom truck that can pickup 11,000 lbs and the dozer. Once it is all welded together it will be 66 ft long. What you see so far is only half of the length.

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2017, 01:45:34 pm »
Just reading and thinking . 3.90 gears should work if you turn the engine 2000 it will be 512 RPM . 3.73 would be 536 RPM . 3.55 =563 RPM . 3.23 = 619 RPM.
A bunch of chainsaws a BT6870 processer and not near enough time

Offline Dieseltim

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2017, 04:57:19 pm »
Ok thanks Gearbox. I wonder what rear axle ratio came in a Mercedes 5cylinder turbo diesel D300 with an automatic transmission. I guess I'll have to do some research. I'm thinking they like to run in the higher rpm compared to a truck engine like a 4BT. Higher rpm might be smoother but might burn more fuel.

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2017, 05:36:43 pm »
If you have the truck see how far it is around the tire and devide by 5280 ft. times 60 to get rpm's at 60 mph . If the engine has a overdrive you will need to figure in direct . I think I would shoot for 550 or 560 RPM at the saw to give you a little pull down to get full fuel and turbo spool .
A bunch of chainsaws a BT6870 processer and not near enough time

Offline Dieseltim

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2017, 05:58:14 pm »
Ok according to the Mercedes sites, an 83 300d has a rear ratio of 3.46 . I don't think the automatic transmission had overdrive back then but even if it does I can probably lock it out.

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2017, 08:08:26 am »
That figures out to 576 at 2000 . I think they ran those a lot faster (3000 ?) . Can you use cruise for speed set . If you need more power just shift down 1 gear . Still should run 60 MPH .
A bunch of chainsaws a BT6870 processer and not near enough time

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2017, 08:43:44 pm »


Got a lot done this weekend.

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2017, 08:45:50 pm »


Coming along a little more each day.

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2017, 08:48:05 pm »


I think that should be straight enough.

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2017, 08:50:22 pm »
Looks nice and straight to me.
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The winds of change are blowing at hurricane force and I don't like it but good shall come even though I see not how.

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2017, 09:41:33 pm »
I've been thinking of welding up a "crane" over the carriage at the infeed end. a post with an overhead arm that I can hang a winch from, the cable would have a hook from a cant hook so it can be wrapped around big logs to flip them. That's looking heck for stout.

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2017, 06:54:31 am »
Forgive me for saying this but its a lot of overkill for a light duty Belsaw. You could mount a heavy mill on that base. Frank C.
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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2017, 07:51:15 am »
Yes Bandmiller2,

It is overkill for most any sawmill, but I already had the steel.... so why not.

I am thinking I would like to put a 60 " blade on it so I'll see how large diameter I can saw with what I have for a while. Then maybe upgrade it later.

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2017, 09:14:25 am »
Be careful putting a large saw on a belsaw unless you change to a bigger mandrel {ARBOR}. Watch the video on the amish sawing a big log .
A bunch of chainsaws a BT6870 processer and not near enough time

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2017, 06:09:46 pm »
Thanks Gearbox,

If and when I upgrade to a bigger blade, I was planning to upgrade the arbor to 2-3" shaft.

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #47 on: March 23, 2017, 10:09:19 pm »



Probably not my best welds, but no one is x-raying these so I think they will be just fine for a sawmill frame.

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #48 on: March 23, 2017, 10:12:13 pm »


Think that these welds are good enough?  Two passes should be good.

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #49 on: March 23, 2017, 10:27:13 pm »
That must be wire . Not enough puddle marks for stick .
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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2017, 06:16:49 am »
Yea... Looks like mig...
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Offline Don P

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2017, 07:16:35 am »
Can't be mine, I don't see a lost chicken looking at a pile in envy  :D

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #52 on: March 25, 2017, 10:41:28 pm »


I went on Friday and picked up the steel that I needed to make the track with for the carriage to ride on. 1 x 1 angle x 1/4 thick , and 2 x 3 angle x 1/4 thick.

Offline Dieseltim

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2017, 11:57:19 pm »


Got some help from my Dad today, so we got lots done. Several of the cross braces installed. The main frame is now done.

Offline Dieseltim

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2017, 07:08:38 pm »


Hoping to use this Mercedes 5cylinder turbo diesel engine. The OM 617 engines were known to be pretty good, and really reliable.

Offline BigZ La

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #55 on: March 26, 2017, 09:15:33 pm »
Can't wait to see this in operation. I've got a circular on my wish to do list  :laugh:

Offline Gearbox

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #56 on: March 26, 2017, 09:48:03 pm »
Ok you may have to find a belt driven governor off a combine or some kind of picker . The older Gleaner ran a chevy v8 with a belt driven governor . the linkage may be a pain but with your welding skills you can do it .
A bunch of chainsaws a BT6870 processer and not near enough time

Offline BUGGUTZ

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Re: Rebuilding a Belsaw M-14
« Reply #57 on: Today at 09:29:49 pm »
Do you plan to run in first gear to get the desired RPM? I have been wanting to use a Cummins auto I have but havent figured it out yet.
Everyone has to be somewhere.