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Logger's Liability

Started by mills, December 23, 2016, 06:44:57 AM

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mills

Many of us on this forum pay to have our logs hauled to the mill. I haul some of mine but, would like to get out of the trucking side as much as possible. Question is how much liability does the logger have when the truck pulls off the landing? I try to load their trucks the same as I would my own with stable loads, and as close to the weight limits as I can estimate. The current state in this country is that everything is everyone else's fault, and I should be compensated for it. A lot of lawyers make their living off frivolous lawsuits, and the judges seem to go along with them. And the more defendants they drag in, the higher the potential payout. Please pardon my rant.  >:(

Does anyone have experience or knowledge about this?

AlexHart

I believe you have none once the truck (that even if you loaded it the driver "approves" of the job you did by) puts the truck in 1st gear and leaves your landing.  It is the truck's problem while in transit. 

However that's with the disclaimer that I'm not a lawyer and am interested in learning myself if that is actually not the case.

As a semi aside I agree with you.   This country is way too litigious and I think it damages and harms us all more than we realize.   I read awhile back that about 60% of all the lawyers on the planet live and practice in the United States.   And we have what % of the world population?  4.5% or something?   Any one case or situation can be justified but overall that alone pretty much tells the tale.   Now... please pardon MY rant :)   

Skip

When I hauled steel ,if the mill overloaded you they had partial liability (if you had an accident mill. driver , trucking company were all in a world of grief )

Jeff

Quote from: AlexHart on December 23, 2016, 08:46:57 AM
I believe you have none once the truck (that even if you loaded it the driver "approves" of the job you did by) puts the truck in 1st gear and leaves your landing.  It is the truck's problem while in transit. 

I'd sincerely doubt that.  At the mill, we were required by our insurance company to only by logs from loggers that carried comp. Didn't matter if we owned the stumpage, or if the first time we new the logs existed were at the gate. Buying uninsured logs was grounds for having your insurance policy canceled immediately. Why?  At any time during the course of the manufacture and transportation of those logs to the mill, if there was an accident anywhere in the stream, the mill could be brought to suit. I guess the theory was that if we were not buying them, then everything leading up to it would never have happened.
Just call me the midget doctor.
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Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

g_man

I went to a workshop that covered this topic. This is what I THINK I heard. I am no lawyer either.

If a logger buys stumpage then he owns the logs until the ownership is officially transferred to the mill or trucker.

If a logger pays the land owner by percentage then both the logger and land owner own the logs until ownership is transferred to the mill or trucker.

If the truck has an accident on the way to the mill the truck driver, truck owner, the operator who loaded the truck, and the owner(s) of the logs are responsible.

It was stressed that in a good contract it should be clearly defined when and where log ownership changes occur. Owners could be the mill, the trucker, the logger, the land owner, or all of them.

gg

Jeff

The only logs we could buy that did not require comp were those that were harvested by the landowner and delivered by the landowner to the mill. We had a few local farmers that would do small harvests usually just before tax time. Haul in a few logs on a farm wagon. We could buy those without fear of insurance company reprisal. 

I guess it may depend on the state, but the log ownership here has nothing to do with who may or may not get sued.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

WH_Conley

Several years ago when the County and State were just starting to require a person to have a trash man, no more dumps beside the road.There were several little guys picking up garbage in pickup trucks with cattle racks on them. There was a lot of trash scattered along the road. The stance from Law Enforcement was that the trash was still the original owner. If they could find anything with your name and address on it you were the one cited for littering. I guess that was easier than trying to find out which hauler was at fault and the little guys were soon gone.
Bill

coxy

I was always told it was on the trucker every 6months my insurance co calls and asks if im hauling for hire I tell them no (witch I do not haul logs or wood for anyone else) I asked the lady why she asks this all the time she told me if I'm hauling for hire I need to have a higher insurance policy to cover loss if something happens to the logs/wood or some other  personal injury  while I'm trucking it cause I'm liable    hope every one understands what I'm trying to say ;D

CCC4

Even here in Arkysaw you have to have your trucks and drivers on a large policy to even pull in to the bigger mills such as Deltic, Weyerhauser and the like. Deltic is so strict that if you are cutting on one of their adjoining properties and need to cross their property...even 50'...you have to have insurance on every vehicle including cutters vehicles to do so. Its pretty ridiculous. Even some of the smaller mills you have to buy the insurance policy to enter their mills.

Bert

Oh man. I have no idea! Never even thought about it, now thats going to bother me. What we sell is scaled onsite by their buyer and price agreed on. I dont get the payment until the logs arrive at the buyers site even though they send their trucks. I pile 'em on until the driver says stop.
Saw you tomorrow!

Autocar

From my understanding if the truck is involved in a accident he's in hot water but when they find out there just contract hauling there come back on you. There your logs till the mill receives them.
Bill

killamplanes

I haul my own logs and got a million dollar unbrella on log and lumbering. And I still doubt I got enough if somethin happens. It's a crazy world.
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

coxy

I don't think it matters how much insurance you have or how good it is there will always be some lawyer that will or try to sue you       lets ask lawyer dave he should be able to tell us  ;D

finding the trail

    I hope this sum's it up.  A significant event will result in everyone being named in the suit. Different state laws may be the exception, but pretty much everyone from the truck mechanic to the owner of the logs will be named in the suit. Sorry, your only recourse is be bankrupt with no assets or bury yourself in good liability insurance and let them fight it out for you. Workers Compensation insurance is something totally different and has little relevance in this particular situation.

mills

My goodness. Well I have to admit, these are the answers I was afraid I would hear. Like they say, "don't ask the question if you don't want to hear the answer." Makes you think about your setup. The trucker I mostly deal with claims he carries a million in liability, I carry a million on the logging business, and an LLC to protect everything else. Oh, and a little prayer every now and then, because the last thing I would ever want is to get someone hurt because of something I did.

But the reality is that a lot of money is changing hands just for me to get logs hauled to the mill. Not a lot of options are there? And I don't see common sense being administered in the courts anytime soon. Guess the only way to beat the system is more knee time.

finding the trail

   Receiving a certificate of insurance from your trucker will provide proof that he has the insurance he claims. This will be generated from his insurance agent directly to you. You would be named as a "certificate holder" and would be notified of any changes to his policy. The second thing you can do is be named as "additionally insured". This would provide you some protection under his policy if a claim where to develop from his actions. 

   In order that I now cover my butt, it should be known that I am not a attorney or insurance professional. I make no claims that I am knowledgeable of the laws of liability and that most state laws are different. Furthermore you should consult your own attorney or insurance professional about your own risk.

Spartan

In MT.  The DOT will name the trucker at fault for overweight, and condition of truck and all road hazards.
Make sure your contracted trucker has the insurance and proof of workers comp, or exemption of it.  Injuries in the landing, I'm not sure about.
Any trucker worth their salt will have scales.  If they don't it's their head.  At least here. and you want them to have scales as well because that means the best payload, always.

Having worked for insurance companies in the past, the flavor of them all has been, don't pay the claim unless you have to.  That being said, invest in someone who is professional enough to have all their ducks in a row.  The quality of their work will be higher because they care to do things right.
Don't fall for the trap of "well theres just no one else, so we have to use this one person"  You'd probably be better off hauling them yourself.
Speaking from experience.  They will be less reliable, cut corners, (involving the law as well) and if they don't have the money to do what you need insurance wise they will probably be out of business sooner than later, or bumming fuel or parts money from you all the time.
Cover your butt, when push comes to shove most people will shove you first....  off a cliff!

luvmexfood

Also not a lawyer but my thoughts are as long as you hire a truck you are in the clear. Of course if the truck came and had parts falling off or you noticed his brakes were bad that might be different. I base this opinion in the fact most of our countries goods are shipped by truck. If a logger is responsible for what the trucker does then what would be the difference between a steel mill shipping steel, quarry hiring rock hauled or any other good. Is the producer liable until a buyer signs for and accepts the load?
Give me a new saw chain and I can find you a rock in a heartbeat.

OH logger

sad to say but if you have money they will try to get it. if your broke they will let you go. cant get blood out of a turnip  :(
john

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