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Zoning Restrictions for Sawmill Operations in Residential Areas

Started by Jjoness4, December 16, 2016, 03:35:01 PM

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Jjoness4

I am not a frequent poster but certainly enjoy the Forum and the wealth of good solid common sense wisdom that is found here.  I have been sawing about five years with the saw set up fairly close to my home and next to my barn.  I sold my manual Norwood mill a couple weeks ago and have made the plunge for an LT-40 HDD35 to be delivered in mid January.  My plan is to set up the mill in a site across the road from our house.  I will put it under a store bought metal roof shed the kind that can be installed in a day.   We live in an agricultural area in rural Tennessee and we have a 40 acre farm.  The mill would be about a quarter mile from the nearest house (mine).  The reason for all this information is that I called the zoning and planning department to get a building permit for the mill shed and they told me rather rudely that since the area was zoned residential that I would not be able to put a sawmill operation on the property because of its potential to be a public nuisance.  I told the rude lady that I was not a commercial operation and that I had been sawing in my back yard for five years with no complaints from the neighbors.  I told the rude lady that there were portable sawmills all over the country in residential areas sawing every day and that I would be sawing for myself not commercially.  I will not be altering my plans because I do not believe she knows what she is talking about. They did grant the building permit for the shed by the way My question is have any of you ever experienced a problem with your sawmill operation in a residential area particularly in areas in close proximity to other people's property. 
2017 LT40HDD35 , Kubota 4701, Ford 3000, Stihl Farmboss

markkelly

I have been milling the City for years for my own use. I have never had any one complain. I just try to clean up the mess. Always, give my neighbors some wood when they need it and they give me any logs they have. To me no different then me having to cut wood for my fireplace to heat my home. Keep on milling :) :) :)
LT 10 Woodmizer, Stihl, Husquvana,wood carving tools, Ford 3000 Tractor, Trailer.

caveman

We have been sawing for about six years without neighbor complaints, although they are a lot closer than yours.  We do not saw early or late.

A friend of mine who was running an LT-50 for another fellow nearby in a residential/agricultural area was shut down by the county within the last year.  I assume the owner offended a neighbor-he is a rude  son of a gun.  The mill did not diminish the standard of living for anyone in the area.  The last I heard was that he sent the mill back up to Maine or New Hampshire or wherever he came from.

I hope all goes well with your endeavor.
Caveman

JBlain

I would check with your state forest products association.  Most states have a right to practice agricultural activities that can't be "zoned" out locally if you have over a threshold acreage size.
Josh

WLC

Should have just told them you needed a permit for a shed.  If it is not a commercial operation, they have no need to know what you are doing on your own property.  Where I live, as long as you are out of city limits then there are no permits needed for anything.  We do have to have septic systems inspected, but heck, we can even do the install ourselves.  I think Commercial stuff falls under different rules though.
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Elbow grease.

xlogger

I had plenty of problems a few years ago. A "new" neighbor move in the land beside me and turn me in to the zoning. I'm farm use but that didn't make much difference to them. I had to slow down and regroup. A saw mill is consider heavy industrial but you have a band mill not a sawmill, tell them that. Second as long as you are just doing for yourself I think she wrong also.
Timberking 2000, Turbo slabber Mill, 584 Case, Bobcat 773, solar kiln, Nyle L-53 DH kiln

landscraper

I would read the zoning ordinance myself and draw my own conclusion.  In my county the folks who answer the phone are well known to hand out bogus info.   
Firewood is energy independence on a personal scale.

esteadle

Agree with others about contacting your state's forest service and checking ag use rules.
Suggestions from dealing with this myself:
1) Find out the rude lady's boss's name. Get to know that person.
2) My sawmill engine vendor came out and measured the noise level with a commercial DB meter and wrote me a nice letter with their measurements and opinion that at 100 yards the sound was barely audible, etc. Might be worth asking them.

paul case

The worst problem I have with neighbors is they slow me down by stopping in and wanting some wood, lumber, slabs, ect. Not a problem really now is it.

I find when dealing with people who know nothing about what I am doing(like the rude lady employee) that it matters a lot more who you get than what you know.

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

azmtnman

I think "portable" makes a difference and doesn't fall under the jurisdiction of most zoning boards--though they may want you to think it does.
1983 LT 30, 1990 Kubota L3750DT, 2006 Polaris 500 EFI, '03 Dodge D2500 Cummins powered 4X4 long-bed crew cab, 1961 Ford backhoe, Stihl MS250, MS311 and MS661--I cut trees for my boss who was a Jewish carpenter!

SLawyer Dave

If you have a 40 acre farm, and this is on your 'farm' property, then it is likely grandfathered in as an agriculturally related activity.  Since you are not selling commercially, and doing the sawing primarily for your own use, they are going to have a hard time requiring you to have a separate use permit.

I had a situation a few years ago where a client of mine owned farms, ranches, and a portable sanitation company, (portable toilets, sinks, showers).  The portable business was on 'agricultural' zoned land, and a neighbor complained.  Given that much of the portable sanitation business/clientele was agriculturally related, (have to have toilets and sink units for ag workers), I recommended he put up a big sign giving the name of his Agricultural Corporation, and listing all of the subsidiary units, including the portable sanitation company.  That way, you are expressly tying the 'business' sales/service to an agricultural basis, and thereby are conforming to a multi-level agricultural enterprise, which is a conforming use.  This creates a situation where the local zoning agency will likely not want to contest the issue, and gives them the ability to defend their choice to not get involved by pointing out that your operation is a 'conforming use'. 

You could likely take a similar tact to tie the mill into your overall agricultural operation.  You also might want to talk to a knowledgeable business/ag attorney in your area.  Seems to me you just got a bureaucrat that wanted to demonstrate her power. 

Good luck to you.

Dave

Jjoness4

Quote from: SLawyer Dave on December 17, 2016, 01:17:09 AM
If you have a 40 acre farm, and this is on your 'farm' property, then it is likely grandfathered in as an agriculturally related activity.  Since you are not selling commercially, and doing the sawing primarily for your own use, they are going to have a hard time requiring you to have a separate use permit.

I had a situation a few years ago where a client of mine owned farms, ranches, and a portable sanitation company, (portable toilets, sinks, showers).  The portable business was on 'agricultural' zoned land, and a neighbor complained.  Given that much of the portable sanitation business/clientele was agriculturally related, (have to have toilets and sink units for ag workers), I recommended he put up a big sign giving the name of his Agricultural Corporation, and listing all of the subsidiary units, including the portable sanitation company.  That way, you are expressly tying the 'business' sales/service to an agricultural basis, and thereby are conforming to a multi-level agricultural enterprise, which is a conforming use.  This creates a situation where the local zoning agency will likely not want to contest the issue, and gives them the ability to defend their choice to not get involved by pointing out that your operation is a 'conforming use'. 

You could likely take a similar tact to tie the mill into your overall agricultural operation.  You also might want to talk to a knowledgeable business/ag attorney in your area.  Seems to me you just got a bureaucrat that wanted to demonstrate her power. 

Good luck to you.

Dave


Thanks to all who have responded to this.  Dave, from the legal perspective, I believe all is well with this.   The part that I didn't tell "rude Lady" is that I am and have been in the Tennessee Green Belt program ( agricultural use) for about 25 years and as a result I am sales tax exempt for any legitimate Agricultural/Forestry related expense.  In reality the State has recognized that my place has been practicing both agricultural and forestry activities for some time.  I raise goats and put up hay on our place plus manage a small forest.  I have had the UT Forestry Extension agent out to survey the timber stand for management purposes and I am on record as having done this.  So I think I got riled up unnecessarily.  Bottom line full steam ahead.  They will have to pry a 4 degree hook angle Woodmizer blade from my cold, dead hands.  Again thanks for everyone's input.  I consider myself to be part of a brotherhood of like mind.  Merry Christmas!!
2017 LT40HDD35 , Kubota 4701, Ford 3000, Stihl Farmboss

rwepinetree

In Massachusetts it is considered agricultural so if you are a farm you shouldn't have any problem

Corley5

  Sawmills are considered industrial not agricultural here.  In this county it's against the rules to put a sawmill on a farm as a permanent installation for the purpose of sawing logs sourced off the farm.  That includes logs from the farm from which the lumber will be sold and custom sawing.  They can only be used for logs sourced on the farm from which the lumber will be used on the farm.  Michigan's Right to Farm Act does not apply to sawmills.
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

thecfarm

I had a sawmill owner come to The C Farm from Kittery,ME. He could not start his mill in town. He knew about this before he bought it. He said there was a guy years ago that had a circular mill,with a loud motor and it was always a mess around it. So the town said no more sawmills.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

redprospector

I'd get a little more information than you got from one grouchy clerk. But you've got to go into this in the right frame of mind. The first question you have to ask yourself is; "How far am I willing to go to get what I am wanting?".
What are you willing to do to get the job done?
If they don't want you there the first thing they'll do is offer to take you to court. That may not sound too intimidating, you can justify what you want to do 9 ways from Sunday. But you have to keep in mind...they own the courts.  :o Well, usually. You will find that the judges in small municipalities, and counties are pretty tight with the mayor, or county commissioners.
If this sounds like experience speaking...it is. I was prepared to go further with this than my bank account could take me. Which leads a man to a whole other dilemma.
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

Peter Drouin

Do what we did in my town. Had a town meeting and voted it in, If you want a business. Be it a sawmill or make donuts, wine, trucking outfit or whatever. You can do it small scale with up to 3 employees .
We have a ton of people working out of their yard. ;D
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

sandsawmill14

unless it is a county wide zoning and or you are in the city there is nothing they can do about it  ;) 5 acres is the min acreage for a farm in tn and under certain circumstances even the bandmill itself will fall under farm equipment and be exempt from sale tax  :) you have nothing to worry about UNLESS you have some kind of county wide zoning  good luck :)
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jwilly3879

The town I am the Zoning Offical in is being sued by the neighbor seeking to have a Planning Board decision to approve a portable sawmill as a Commercial use overturned. The Zoning Law calls out sawmills, pallet mills and chipping mills and other similar wood processing facilities as industrial uses. The PB decided that a band mill that produces 7000 bf/year did not rise to level of an Industrial use but would be more similar to a Commercial use in that they only saw to order, have no inventory or employees and operate only part time.

WV Sawmiller

   This thread reminds me I'm lucky to live in an area with few such restrictions.

    I think Redprospector  makes a good point about how far are you willing to push it to get approval. Many years ago my dad bought a piece of land in LA (Lower Alabama) to make a perpetual care cemetery. (It adjoined a plot with an existing church cemetery). After he bought the land he applied for the permit and the county commissioners (including the man he bought it from and had told his plan from the start) refused it. Dad took it all the way to the Alabama Supreme Court who overturned the CC ruling then the CC still refused on other grounds. He finally gave it up and sold it and it is now a redneck trailer park with junked cars and lost mowers out in the grass. (I had suggested he sell it to someone to make a pig farm or put up chicken houses.) The CC said they were afraid a cemetery would lower adjacent property values (even though one was already there) and Dad proved there was no such case of lowered property values on record.

   Good luck on your endeavor.
Howard Green
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Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

redprospector

Quote from: Peter Drouin on December 19, 2016, 05:42:29 AM
Do what we did in my town. Had a town meeting and voted it in, If you want a business. Be it a sawmill or make donuts, wine, trucking outfit or whatever. You can do it small scale with up to 3 employees .
We have a ton of people working out of their yard. ;D
There are only 2 types of municipalities in this country. The majority of them are "Dillons Rule" which basicly says that the municipality is a "child" of the state, and can only do what the state will allow it to do. Elected officials decide for the people, and the only voice the people have is their vote. The other type is "Home Rule" municipality. Who are pretty much sovereign entities, and the only things they can't decide for themselves is what is expressly forbidden by the state. Basicly, the power still belongs to the people. The people can "recall" bad officials, and ordinances. Your town must be Home Rule. 👍
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

Magicman

There are some municipalities where pushing only gets you highlighted and on the "watch" list.  Most assuredly when you reach that status, you will never be allowed to do anything more than plant flowers. 

I have one such municipality in my area that disallows non-graded lumber for building.  I have gotten many calls from there and my advice is always to check with the building inspector.  I have never sawed a job there.

My point is that once a building/permit inspector digs in, your chances are slim.
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It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

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taylorsmissbeehaven

Its quite a shame how different each area and the people in each area are. As a carpenter, I have befriended the inspectors here at home as I deal with them everyday. Most are great guys but very "by the book". I have a small camp in Tennesee. I was laughed at (politely) when I inquired about a building permit in that town in 2000. I was told they tried to sell them in  past years but nobody came and got them so they gave up! Good people are out there ya just got to find them!! Good luck, Brian
Opportunity is missed by most because it shows up wearing bib overalls and looks like work.

Peter Drouin

Quote from: redprospector on December 19, 2016, 09:34:14 AM


There are only 2 types of municipalities in this country. The majority of them are "Dillons Rule" which basicly says that the municipality is a "child" of the state, and can only do what the state will allow it to do. Elected officials decide for the people, and the only voice the people have is their vote. The other type is "Home Rule" municipality. Who are pretty much sovereign entities, and the only things they can't decide for themselves is what is expressly forbidden by the state. Basicly, the power still belongs to the people. The people can "recall" bad officials, and ordinances. Your town must be Home Rule. 👍





We have State laws, we have to keep up.  ;)

One time we had some selectmen want to stop the people from picking at the dump and they did. ::) We all got together and had us a special town meeting. ;D
We can pick all we want now.

smiley_biggrin01 :christmas:

A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

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