iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

What's your cutting method for this type of crotched tree?

Started by schmalts, December 11, 2016, 07:47:08 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

schmalts

I don't really case for using the saw this high to take them separate. What would you do? Safest way? They are kind of leaning different directions too.


 

JohnW

We've had discussion on this before, but I can't find it.  I believe the deal is, this is always twin trees, and it's usually easier to fell them separately.  Just cut vertically down the Y to the level where you want to make your back cut.

I've only cut a couple of these, and thankfully they were small, since I did it wrong.  If you cut from one trunk toward the other, when your saw gets to the edge of the first trunk, the trunk is completely cut and its weight will come down on your bar trapping it.

There will be others that have a lot to say about this.

BargeMonkey

 "IF" they are healthy ash and sound I would cut the one with the most defined lean first. Run your saw down between both of them and seperated them as close to where they grew together as possible, down to a comfortable height, if that makes sense. When I do this I make sure the cut is 100% thru, you don't want any hold wood on the other stick left, bad things happen. Once they are apart pick the one with the best lean or easiest to wedge and apply which ever felling technique works best for you, I prefer a very shallow face cut and bore cut, with something like this I would leave more hold wood on the backside because I'm not running back around to nip the backside if you can't reach it, if that makes sense. Get back to the side with my hold wood, nip it and go away quick, sometimes with twins especially you can knock a limb or dead top loose and it won't be good. Hope that helps, if it's dead nasty ash on the stump I would go about it a little different and probably cut it 80% and back it over with the skidder.

AlexHart

I'm not that great of a feller but I have to say I've run into this a fair amount and haven't ever had trouble.   Just take them down separately like they were individual trees.

And +1 on Barge's tactic of if they don't quite separate at a comfortable height... make it a comfortable height :) 

Edited to add... and I've also learned the hard way that if your using a bar saw machine and are taking down doubles or triples like this you have to take care your bar doesn't go through the one your cutting and into the next one a little bit and jam there as the one you grabbed and cut falls over.   Otherwise your butt is going to the hydraulic press later for bar-straightening practice.   

thecfarm

I myself would do as BargeMonkey said. probably will have to sharpen the saw after you run the saw between them. I was cutting a bunch of them 2-3 trees grown together. Everything was fine until one group. And it had to be by the previous owners shed. The trees split on me,instead of holding together like the past 20 had done. And than like a dumber I stood there and watched it happen.  ::) That tree hit the edge of the roof and I guess it came back and hit me. All I remember is picking myself up off the ground. Saw was still running too. Must of hit my arm,lost some skin on that one and was some sore for a while.Trees was much smaller too.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

BargeMonkey

 I almost bought somebody a house 2yrs ago because I treated a double like alot of the others I had cut, ash like that is one thing but anytime I see a big HM or SM that forks, even 20' up I try and treat it like 2 seperated sticks of wood if it has that "look". This was a monster HM right on the main road that had a frost seam, in front of 20 people I looked like a fool with my 3120 and 4ft bar, my dad saved my butt because we did have a 644H pushing on it. What I'm getting at is, it doesn't cost you anymore time to stop and spend 3mins more when it's something out of the ordinary. I got my 1st serious injury in the woods a few months ago doing something I had done 100x already and it literally bit me this time.
I HATE cutting doubles / triples with a barsaw head, unless it's something real nice I reach up and cut the smaller stick out 8-10' high, throw it and then go cut the remaining block out of the way the best I can to get at the next stick, found I bend less bars that way. The 1187 case shear I had was an animal in multi stem trees, especially ugly hemlock and pine.

DDW_OR

schmalts
this is my 2 cents. i have very little experience in twin falling.
regular trees = about 100+
Twins = 5

first clear the brush and establish a safe rout if things go bad

  
next cut each tree trunk separately
photo looks like the crotch is about chest to shoulder height
i would cut the smaller trunk first, then the second trunk, then the main trunk

 
"let the machines do the work"

quilbilly

If it's easy to get the bar up cut them separately, if not cut as low to the ground as possible with the undercut going deep but not tall. Then run fast if things look to be getting hairy. Done this quite a few times. Haven't had to run yet but always prepared. We usually run do this on softwood though.
a man is strongest on his knees

Ianab



Just to modify that slightly, and agreeing with BargeMonkey, I would make cuts one and 2 shallow, just enough notch to form a decent hinge. The tree is going to fall that direction, you don't need a deep notch.

Cut 3 would be pretty much vertical down to the notch level. The tree is in no danger of falling at this point because most of the trunk is still intact.

Now, cut 4 is to bore in level behind the hinge wood and set your hinge up, Then cut towards the back to meet up with cut 3. At some point when you get close to meeting cut 3, there will be a big "crack" and the last bit of holding wood will tear loose. That's your cue to grab your saw and lake large steps in the opposite direction.

Then you should be able to cut the remaining trunk normally. Bore it also if it's got a significant lean. If it's closer to vertical then regular notch and backcut will be fine.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

schmalts

Thanks guys. Never even dawned on me to cut down vertical.

RHP Logging

Unless the tree split is well over your head there is no need to rip them apart first. Good way to dull a chain. Don't come don't vertically with your back cut. Why? They will slip off the stump in a weird way. Watch you toes. Usually these come off the stump pretty quick so you won't be running far. I cut trees like this every day. The stand I'm in now I cut 2-4 co dominant oak per day. Many of them leaning like a rainbow. Rarely do I rip them unless I have no other options. When you rip then apart they can bind on each other when trying to falling. The back of the tree has no where to go. Of course get your tops out of there. When they split higher then I can reach this is how I do it.




 
Buckin in the woods

ppine

I would be tempted to cut high stumps and take the smaller one first.  Assuming they are not rotten, that should be the right way to go.
Forester

DeerMeadowFarm

RHP - How do you plan your escape when you're up in the air like that? I'm not a professional, but that has to be a little scary, no?

RHP Logging

Quote from: DeerMeadowFarm on December 12, 2016, 01:58:55 PM
RHP - How do you plan your escape when you're up in the air like that? I'm not a professional, but that has to be a little scary, no?

Well it's not graceful I can tell you that. Gravity helps. Jumping with a saw is interesting. Kind of all happens pretty fast.
Buckin in the woods

Magicman

I have a high crotch Walnut tree that I will deal with someday.


 
It's about 5' to the crotch.


 
And probably ~34" dbh.  I will need to choose my battle, but the above felling recommendations will be helpful.  Each stem will be felled individually to preserve the crotch wood, and my butt as well.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

mills

I wouldn't make a decision based on a picture, but according to where I want them to fall, and how structurally sound I think the base is, I will drop ones similar to these by cutting them both at the same time. Most of the landowners don't want a four or five foot high stump left, so I would have to cut it off anyway. I can only remember making the wrong decision once where the two trees started separating. It was fairly simple to back off and drop them individually.
Disclaimer: Every situation is different, and I would not make a decision based on a picture.

lopet

You only have to rip them if they don't come apart.  Pick your heavy leaner first, start your notch and then bore cut from the side behind your hinge and cut backwards to the point where you think they would split. If they don't, you can still rip them. I think it's pretty save that way and I deal with this a lot on soft maple.

I Like your spring board  RHP.        Been standing on the roof of my skidder before . ;D
Make sure you know how to fall properly when you fall and as to not hurt anyone around you.
Also remember, it's not the fall what hurts, its the sudden stop. !!

CCC4

Don't angle your back cut into a crotch, keep them flat. When angled in, where do ya think the pressure of the back of the tree is going as the tree commits to the face? Right against your bar and will grab a tooth and pinch you every time.

Mills, yup...if the growth seem is tight, fall then both at ground level. Face to where you can get both to land flat or to the heavy side with a swing set up and it will spin around and generally land flat.

Or if you are really crafty, face out both leaders opposing each other, bore you back cut in a little low into the crotch and let them fly at the same time...don't do this...it's cool but tricky

killamplanes

Quote from: lopet on December 13, 2016, 06:34:22 PM
You only have to rip them if they don't come apart.  Pick your heavy leaner first, start your notch and then bore cut from the side behind your hinge and cut backwards to the point where you think they would split. If they don't, you can still rip them. I think it's pretty save that way and I deal with this a lot on soft maple.

I Like your spring board  RHP.        Been standing on the roof of my skidder before . ;D

X2
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

DeerMeadowFarm

Quote from: lopet on December 13, 2016, 06:34:22 PM
You only have to rip them if they don't come apart.  Pick your heavy leaner first, start your notch and then bore cut from the side behind your hinge and cut backwards to the point where you think they would split. If they don't, you can still rip them. I think it's pretty save that way and I deal with this a lot on soft maple.

I Like your spring board  RHP.        Been standing on the roof of my skidder before . ;D
X3

Ed_K

 If I know they are going to split, I cut #3 first. That way I can put a wedge in and not worry about bar pinch once the hinge is set and back cut started.
Ed K

RHP Logging

 Here ya go. From yesterday. This was as high as I could reach over my head. 390 with a 32" bar. Any higher and I would have needed to springboard it. No way the two were going together. Leaning too hard and bad seam. I'd still be there swapping chains ripping them apart. Took all of a minute for the bigger stem. Then I had a log to stand on for the smaller one.

 
Buckin in the woods

CCC4

This one is from today...I will run across this scenario 1 out of 100 co-dominates.



  

 

CCC4

I would say they would have been fine from the ground cut as one unit...however, the lean of both leaders equals a double lean right?...with a growth seam in there...so, my little inner brain said "NO"...so I didn't. Thought it would look cool for this thread also.

treeslayer2003

Quote from: CCC4 on December 15, 2016, 05:43:55 PM
I would say they would have been fine from the ground cut as one unit...however, the lean of both leaders equals a double lean right?...with a growth seam in there...so, my little inner brain said "NO"...so I didn't. Thought it would look cool for this thread also.
that little voice is keeping you alive. always listen to it.

RHP Logging

If you can cut em seperate I don't know why anyone would cut them together. Asking for trouble.
Buckin in the woods

Thank You Sponsors!