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Small skidder vs. tractor with farmi winch?

Started by gman98, November 30, 2016, 09:51:18 AM

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gman98

Hello guys.  I'm looking to get a start in logging while I'm still in college, and I need a machine to yard wood with.  I'm looking at starting working on small woodlots, cutting freebie length firewood and some pulp and popple for the OSB plant.  What would you guys reccomend for a machine between a small cable skidder and a tractor with a farmi winch?

Thanks
Forest technician and part time equipment operator.  Looking to get set up with some logging equipment of my own.

DDW_OR

what do you have to move the equipment from one yard to the next?

a 50+ hp 4x4 tractor can do more things than a skidder. but a skidder has a protected belly.
"let the machines do the work"

Maine logger88

If you have other things to do with the tractor then it might be worth it but if you are going to just pull wood with it a skidder is way better. You can probably find a decent cable skidder for alot less than what it would cost to buy a tractor and winch too. Plus a skidder is way safer I did the tractor farmi winch thing for a year or so when I first started it got the job done but I would be hard pressed to go back.
79 TJ 225 81 JD 540B Husky and Jonsered saws

John Mc

If you do end up going with a tractor and winch, remember to leave room in your budget for some "armor": belly pan, FOPS, limb-risers, engine and grill protection.

As others have noted, the tractor is more versatile, but there is a very good reason a skidder was designed in the first place - it's made for the kind of work you are talking about.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

mf40diesel

I logged with my tractor for a couple years, exactly like you said,  55 hp John Deere and a farmi winch.  As far as pulling power, just fine, and with the bigger tires, and 4wd did pretty good as far as getting stuck.  With that said, I broke the front drive shaft guard, ripped part of the wiring harness off, bashed in the hydraulic oil filter (luckily it didn't punch through).  I ended up buying an old skidder myself.

I will say though, clearly the tractor is much more versatile.   For me it was also that I always wanted to own a skidder, just needed a reason. 
John Deere 5055e, mfwd. Farmi JL306 Winch. Timberjack 225 Skidder. Splitfire splitter & Stihl saws.

danbuendgen

First off, your not going to make much of anything cutting firewood and pulp with a chain saw and skidder part time or full time.... Have you looked at the pulp markets recently?? How many cords can you cut and skid in a day? Where will you sell that firewood/pulp?

Not to be rude, but have you ever logged before?! If not, your gonna be in for a wicked learning curve. Honestly, your collage education wont help much in the woods working as a logger. Somethings will come in handy for sure, but there is A TON collage wont teach you. I have worked with kids out of forestry collage that thought they were going to be big time loggers because they went to forestry collage, and they knew nothing, needed baby sitting, and got nothing done. I'm a high school drop out been working in the woods since it was 18 and I can and cut and skid circles around them.... It's amazing how little these collage kids know about the industry.....

But to answer your question, in my experience farm tractors are meant to be farm tractors in flat fields and no good in the woods. Your going to struggle a lot to pull even a small hitch. Tractor tires are not meant to be in the woods, tractors have no belly pans, and no brush guards and no ROPS. You will more then likely roll it over. Or just break it. 50 HP is nothing in the woods. Most small skidders around around the 100 HP range. Skidder is the only way to go in the woods hands down. I like the TJ 240 for a cable machine. Something in this size range or larger. Don't get a tiny skidder. And don't buy the cheapest machine of craigslist and expect it be reliable. Spend 20-30k for a decent machine if you plan to make a living with it.

But before you start blowing a ton of money, get some experience and learn the ins and outs of the industry. Logging equipment is jaw dropping expensive, and keeping a old skidder together is not a walk in the park. A tire can cost $2k+. A winch rebuild $5k+. A engine rebuild $6-10k. Your going to needs tools, and mechanical skills, ect. Your going to need work lined up. A lot of it. And need a ton of money in the bank to buy jobs and cover costs. Do you know any foresters or landowners who can help you find work? Where will you market your products? Who will truck your wood? How will you survive if the market slows? What about mud season? Do you know your daily operating cost/production out put for bidding jobs, budgeting cash flow, and paying stumpage? Who will build landings and roads for truck access and do you know how to price this out? What if you have a major break down on your skidder? Can you fix it, if not, who will, and can you afford it? Will you have the savings to last you through tough times? Can you get a loan for a skidder? Or do you happen to have 20k+ sitting around? Just a few things to think about.

I don't mean to discourage you, but I think you should get a job working in the woods first before you go on your own ever part time on weekends. Logging is a easy way to get killed or hurt, so better learn the ropes with skilled people nearby to teach you how to log with out getting killed.

Good Luck.
Husqvarna ~ TimberJack ~ Dodge Cummins

thecfarm

You said freebie wood,where others have cut? How long will the freebie stuff last. I use to cut on my own land with a tractor. I got all the money,so I could take more time with the brush,stumps,and my trails. I could cut a load of logs quick,but then go back in and clean up the small stuff is what took time. Than once I almost got stuck with a load of plup because it had started to turn gray. We was cutting big pine and not getting much small wood at that time.
I know there are at least 2-3 in the woods with a tractor,on the forum,but they are not cutting small stuff all the time.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

bill m

Don't believe ANYONE who says you cannot earn a good living logging with a tractor. I am doing it and have been for many years. Don't get me wrong, it's not for everyone. You need to have respect for your equipment and the people and land you are working on. You have to do things different with a tractor like cutting that 3 inch sapling instead of just running it over with a skidder BUT the forester you work through and the land owner will appreciate it. Your operating costs are far lower with a tractor then with a skidder. These are a few pictures of some of the jobs I have worked.

  

  

  

 
NH tc55da Metavic 4x4 trailer Stihl and Husky saws

John Mc

gman98 - I think a lot of this depends on what your goals are. There is quite a difference between running a small, part-time operation to get yourself some experience and make a little money on the side, and trying to make a living and support a family solely on logging.

Since you are currently a student, I'm guessing you are in the "small, part-time" camp, at least for now. As has already been noted, a big factor in your decision will be how you will be using the equipment. If you have other things you need to get done, a tractor will probably have the edge due to its versatility: there is a lot you can do with the right attachments on a tractor (other work around the home/farm, loading trucks/trailers, brush hogging, landscaping/grading, etc)  If you sole need is dragging logs, it's going to be hard to beat a skidder.

Lastly, what is your time/skills/inclination to work on equipment? I have a bit of mechanical aptitude, but am far from being a diesel mechanic. In my situation, I'd rather have a reliable piece of equipment that maybe I have to find work-arounds to accomplish some tasks because it isn't designed to do everything I want, than own something that does all I need, but needs constant repairs.

I own a 33 HP tractor with a logging winch a grapple on the front, and a few modifications for work in the woods. I often comment that it's a good thing I'm not trying to make a living at firewood, because it's SLOW work. In almost 15 years of using it in the woods, the only damage I've done is a flat tire and a busted off hydraulic filter (that last one didn't happen in the woods, but it is what finally convinced me to get the belly pan installed). I have to be a lot more careful with my equipment than with something made for work in the forest, but given my other needs, it fits me well. For someone serious about working in the the woods professionally, I would never go as small as what I have, unless you are serving some specialty market.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

DeerMeadowFarm

I think anyone in this day and age who is willing to work hard to make some cash while in school is a good egg in my book. You aren't going to get rich. You may be lucky to break even at times, but you'll get a better education of the real world than going to college alone, or working in a pizza joint while in school ever will. Maybe a compromise of landing some part time work with an established logger would be a better start and safer all around? Good luck!

BurkettvilleBob

No shortage of opinions here are there! I say find the best little skidder you can afford, grease the hell out of it and go have fun. You're young, it doesn't matter if you go belly up, then you'll know maybe it wasn't the thing to do. Before you know it you'll have kids and a house payment and you won't be able to jeopardize your finances on a gamble. If you don't try it now, you'll kick yourself in the ass later, always wishing you tried logging when you were 18. Finish school, cut wood when you can, don't drop anything on your head and have fun!

Stephen Alford

   Just a couple pics of belly armor .. :)

 


 

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luvmexfood

Quote from: BurkettvilleBob on December 02, 2016, 09:41:38 AM
No shortage of opinions here are there! I say find the best little skidder you can afford, grease the hell out of it and go have fun. You're young, it doesn't matter if you go belly up, then you'll know maybe it wasn't the thing to do. Before you know it you'll have kids and a house payment and you won't be able to jeopardize your finances on a gamble. If you don't try it now, you'll kick yourself in the ass later, always wishing you tried logging when you were 18. Finish school, cut wood when you can, don't drop anything on your head and have fun!
x2 Finish your education. Don't matter what you can do in life or what experience you have or even specialized training if you don't have that diploma then it don't matter. Log a little on the side. If things work out then you are good to go. Otherwise, if you don't like it then fall back on your education.
Give me a new saw chain and I can find you a rock in a heartbeat.

Stephen Alford

  I have had requests from the landowners for the next couple of jobs  (a couple years work for me) that they be farm tractor only jobs.  For ground clearance power and productivity I would prefer a skidder but not all the choices are mine to make. Just wondering if anyone else is coming across this preference ?
Most of you folks are probably  familiar with these units . Thought they had some interesting features.   :)
  https://youtu.be/1RuaLs4H3zE
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John Mc

Interesting. What advantage do they think they are getting by requesting a farm tractor?
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Stephen Alford

 Hey John , as I am sure you are aware there is quite  a cross section of landowners out there. Some how the perception is the bigger the gear the more the damage. Simply not the case.  The conversation starts out.. Are you the guy that logs with the farm tractor? .  If that is what it takes to get the work so be it but having options makes for better results.  Match the tool to the task. The currency most landowners want to pay you with is wood. Right now it does not seem to be worth a lot .   I believe that we have to do a better job of educating  folks.  Most of us are just to busy trying to make a living to get involved. It is only through sites like Jeff's  "forestry Forum" a voice can be heard . How we present ourselves on here will go a long way to help. Just look at the number of  "guests" versus  "members"  .   When I see young lads like gman98 come on here  and want to learn then there is  ..hope..  my friend.   :)
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John Mc

The reason I was asking is that I grew up on a farm in NW Ohio. To me, a "real" farm tractor is big, and not as maneuverable as many skidders I have seen (though I've never operated one). A big farm tractor would not be something I would picture as minimizing damage in the woods.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Stephen Alford

   Most farms here had two categories of tractors .  "Real tractors" as you describe for working the land and one the size of mine ie 65 hp for yard work. The 4x4 and cab have been huge.  As the family farms started to decline for all sorts of reasons folks started looking to their woodlots for extra income.  The 65hp ford has always been well received by landowners. It has run my sawmill, log loader, wood grapple, grader blade and winch.  It has really shined when it comes to cash flow. But the skidder  was the girl to put wood on the landing. 
   One day I arrived at a farm and there was an ol belarus 825 4x4 and this big beautiful John Deere.  I asked the farmer what he used to blow snow  ?   He responded the belarus do not want to get salt on the deere.   What do you use to move the manure ?  The belarus cause the manure would make the cab smell on the deere.  What do use to get your firewood ?  Oh the ol belarus  the branches would scratch the cab of the deere.  Then he said we use the belarus for most of the farm work cause its already runnin.  :D
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DeerMeadowFarm

Quote from: Stephen Alford on December 04, 2016, 01:23:25 PM
   Just a couple pics of belly armor .. :)

 


 
Any other details/pics of your modifications on this beauty Stephan?

Lazy logger

Lots of good advice so far, and a lot to think about. I have done it both ways, and still do. I have a 30 hp Kubota with a winch and a TJ230 cable skidder. I am not a full time logger by any stretch of the imagination and after learning what it would take I'm not sure I could or want to try. If your just "playing around" part time stick with a tractor and winch. You would be surprised at what you can do with this little tractor. You just need to use your head and be safe. I have found that the tractor has a lot more uses and will make life easier in more ways than logging. Make sure you get one with quick attach loader so you can get forks,bucket, brush grapple, etc. there's a lot more you can do in the woods than logging to make extra money. Making trails, roads, food plots etc. If all you want to do is pull logs a skidder is definitely the way to go but that's all you will do with it. The other thing you should think about is being able to move it. I can easily move my tractor around with my truck, my skidder is expensive to move. Good luck, and be safe.
I know the voices in my head aren't real,but sometimes their ideas are just absolutely awesome!

Stephen Alford

 Oh me pics... thought you would never ask   :D

Got to agree with Dan gearing up a tractor is not easy but as Bill M says it can be done.  I found for a one man show like mine the skidder/tractor was a great combination.


 

  These are forestry special (skidder tires) on the tractor. Pipe covers over the stems , rebar around the rims and globe mirrors, and a good non slip step.

  

  

 

  Made a 3pt wood grab for the rear.

  

 

  A snow push blade on the front made out out a truck bumper Has a couple digger teeth for extra brakes.  Its 5 pieces comes off easily.  Not on much in the woods but is at the landing if I need it.


  

 

  Log trailer made from a scraped truck.


 

Added a 3pth winch with fairlead, really pleased with the way it spools.


  

 

  This is the tool crib   :)

 

 

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gman98

Thanks for all the great replies guys.  I've been busy with classes lately so I haven't had much time to get one.  To starts with, I made an error in my original post.  I typed "freebie" wood, but meant to say tree length.  I have already gotten a job working with a handcrew for a month starting in mid December.  I'll be bucking pine sawlogs at the landing and will get an opportunity to do some felling and working with some skidders.  And finally, I know this will not be a final career path for me most likely.  Right now I'm looking for a way to have a lot of fun and make a little money on the side.
Forest technician and part time equipment operator.  Looking to get set up with some logging equipment of my own.

BargeMonkey

@ Stephen,  that's probably one of the nicest woods tractors I've seen, pictures look good.

47sawdust

Stephen,
Does that tractor have a microwave and a cup holder as well? Certainly is one tricked out tractor...you work is impressive.
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

thecfarm

Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

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