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how do i read this hydraulic plate info

Started by DDW_OR, November 24, 2016, 05:38:42 PM

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DDW_OR

I am very GREEN when it comes to hydraulics

Multitek 1610EZ not working. was working, cut about 10 cords then the hydraulics started to slow down and then basically stopped, all in about 60 minutes.
changed hydraulic filter. used a filter cutter to open old filter, found no foreign particles inside. 
Live deck moves slowly, feed deck moves slowly, chainsaw does not, splitter ram does not, conveyor moves slowly.

drained all hydraulic Fluid. now looking for what fluid to use. so many to choose from.

engine on left side of photo.
so how do i read this plate info?

 

200102580202
AP200/15 D 880
9B 50154608
MADE IN ITALY
BUCHER HYDRAULICS

__________


"let the machines do the work"

landscraper

AP200 is the model #, it's a gear pump, the /15 is 15cc displacement, D means clockwise rotation, non-reversible.  I googled Bucher AP200/15 and came up with that.  The spec sheets I saw also said it is a 3 port pump, making between 2600-3300psi.      Looks like maybe a $250-$300 pump.

I have no personal knowledge of it otherwise, that's just what a quick search came up with.

Is there a system relief valve on the Multitek that can be tested or adjusted?  Does your processor have pressure gauges for the various circuits, and maybe the manual tells you what normal operating pressures should be?  Slow/feeble performance can be a failing pump, but it could also be a weak relief valve that is allowing flow to bypass back to the reservoir rather than "working".


Firewood is energy independence on a personal scale.

Hilltop366

Is it possible the pump drive is slipping?   

wndwlkr65

Like hilltop said, I would look for a sheared key on the pump shaft.

blackfoot griz

Quote from: wndwlkr65 on November 24, 2016, 08:12:56 PM
Like hilltop said, I would look for a sheared key on the pump shaft.


That is what I was thinking as well. A new chunk of key stock would be an easy fix.

DDW_OR

Quote from: landscraper on November 24, 2016, 07:19:27 PM
....Is there a system relief valve on the Multitek that can be tested or adjusted? 
....Does your processor have pressure gauges for the various circuits, and maybe the manual tells you what normal operating pressures should be? 

Slow/feeble performance can be a failing pump, but it could also be a weak relief valve that is allowing flow to bypass back to the reservoir rather than "working".

system relief valve = ??
pressure gauges = No
manual = none

as i stated, i am VERY Green.

Wish it was an electrical problem. I have an AA degree from Devry and 17 years of component level repair and failure analysis

tomorrow i am loading our dump trailer with Madrona logs. then around noon the sales rep for the Central Boiler will be here to do the final install, and initial firing of the 750
"let the machines do the work"

blackfoot griz

Your machine is running a gear pump which should put out a constant flow proportionally to the engine rpm. From the outlet/pressure port, the flow should act a lot like an electrical current-- taking the path of least resistance.  If the pump is good, the flow is going somewhere.  Some more pictures would help. For starters, can you pull the pump and check the coupling? If you gradually sheared your key, for a dollar or so, you'really
back in business. If that isn't the problem, follow the flow downstream....where does it go next?

GAB

Are there any places in the hydraulic circuit where you could install a pressure gauge to test the system?
Based on what you have written, and not knowing this machine and its configuration I feel it could be a failed engine shaft, a failed key, a failed pump, a failed pump shaft, or a pressure relief valve problem such as a piece of trash (i.e. metal shaving) keeping it stuck open.
Sure would appreciate hearing from you in the future informing us of the actual problem(s).
Gerald
W-M LT40HDD34, SLR, JD 420, JD 950w/loader and Woods backhoe, V3507 Fransguard winch, Cordwood Saw, 18' flat bed trailer, and other toys.

DDW_OR

Video of how it should work.
controls are the same as mine,

this is not me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSjQfpN0j1c
"let the machines do the work"

DDW_OR

no - failed engine shaft
no - failed key
no - failed pump shaft

?? - pressure relief valve problem
?? - failed pump



 
Photo above - Left to right, return, return from saw, line to pump


 
Photo above - Left to right, speed adjustment, live deck, output conveyor


 
Photo above - backside of speed adjust


 
Photo above - top -down, live deck, conveyor, splitter, splitter wedge, log clamp, log feed.


 
Photo above - engine shaft, cannot spin by hand


  
Photo above - pump shaft, can spin by hand, I have drained hydraulic fluid


  
Photo above - pump shaft


 
Photo above - new filter on return line to reservoir
fluid flow is left to right
thinking of adding a shutoff valve between filter and reservoir
"let the machines do the work"

DDW_OR

 

 

is the "nut" to the left of each valve block the pressure relief valve
"let the machines do the work"

DDW_OR

Took the pump to Phoenix Hydraulics, they opened it, inspected, and re-assembled. concluded no problem with pump and that the pump was basically new.

the lines with arrows on both ends represent two lines to that hydraulic part.
the return line for the saw goes strait back to the tank, NO FILTER


 
"let the machines do the work"

North River Energy

If I'm not mistaken, the flow control involves a simple priority valve. Bypass that component, and see if your main (splitter, saw, etc) functions come back.

Rural

"is the "nut" to the left of each valve block the pressure relief valve"
Sure looks like it to me, if one is stuck open it would produce the symptoms you have described. As others have said inserting a tee in the output line with a hydraulic gauge would tell you what is going on. With pump running but nothing in use the gauge should read the relief pressure, operating each component may drop the pressure slightly if it drops substantially or does not reach relief pressure then oil is returning to tank via one or more relief valves without restriction.
Afterthought.... depending upon the set up the system may circulate directly to tank unless a valve is operated, in this case there will be minimal pressure in the system unless something is being operated.

DDW_OR

 

 

If i understand correctly i should inserting a tee in the output line with a hydraulic gauge.
should i install two gauges, one at 2a and a second at 2b ?
where the hydraulic line connects to each of the the elbows.

will be working on the Multitek today. have to re-install the pump, and add all of the fluid.
"let the machines do the work"


Rural

Any hydraulic gauge that is good for the output pressure of the pump would be fine, I would initially put it in the line from the pump to the flow control, you may later try putting it in the output lines from the flow control (if that is possible and not directly coupled to the control valves). I also note that depending upon the type of flow control that item may also return excess flow to tank and if faulty also be causing your problems as previous poster suggested.
There is much information on fluid power available on line, understanding how the various components work is very helpful in trouble shooting problems check out http://hydraulicspneumatics.com/fluid-power-basics

DDW_OR

flow control


 
only has 3 hoses, one in from pump, and one to each of the valve banks.

as of now i have no pressure gauge on the property.
"let the machines do the work"

Hilltop366

Pump suction line? Sometime the line can separate and collapse on the inside and restrict oil flow.

Have you tried calling the manufacture and/or dealer to ask for advice?

DDW_OR

Pump suction line? = good, no blockage

calling the manufacture = no i have not. got it used as-is

am now draining the hydraulic tank. drain plug on bottom will not come out.
"let the machines do the work"

North River Energy

You don't need gauges at this point, just a line coupler and cap. Tie the flow control input to the main valve bank input, and cap off the line to the secondary valve bank so the backfeed (if any) doesn't put a shine on your shoes.

Flow is being affected by something between the pump and valve banks. If you remove that element and functions return, you've found your problem.
Evaluating the line pressures will only tell you the extent of the problem you have already identified.

DDW_OR

as i stated at the beginning "I am very GREEN when it comes to hydraulics"

I GREATLY appreciate all of the help i am getting.

"eliminating sections", should have thought of that because that is what i did when repairing electronics for 17 years.
"let the machines do the work"

DDW_OR

Quote from: North River Energy on December 20, 2016, 01:27:02 PM
...Tie the flow control input to the main valve bank input, and cap off the line to the secondary valve bank so the backfeed (if any) doesn't put a shine on your shoes....

I assume you are referring to line "C" and then to line "D"
what should i do with the tee for lines L M N




  
"let the machines do the work"

DDW_OR

Fuel had water in it, ethanol  :(
Hydraulic had no water. refilled.
will be starting the engine and running the controls to see if problem is still there.
"let the machines do the work"

North River Energy

Connect B to C.
Cap D.
Then run the pump.
If E,H,I,J,K come back to life, shut it down, then Connect B to D and cap C.
Run it again.
If O,P work more or less as they should, then repair or replace your flow control. Odds are it has a chunk of packing jamming the works.


DDW_OR

engine oil also had water in it.
i think that is what brown colored oil or caramel colored oil


 

now the only fluid i have not changed is the bar oil. not going to do it.

removed C and D from flow control. the inside of C and D had rust. :(    >:(
"let the machines do the work"

DDW_OR

purchased the 1610ez used on 10/3/2013 in Wisconsin. changed engine oil and filter and hydraulic filter. then cut 8 to 10 cords before the end of 2013.

2015 cut most of one cord before problems started.

2016, fixing problems.
"let the machines do the work"

DDW_OR

drained engine oil, added engine flush and 1 qrt fresh oil, ran engine for 5 min. drained and replaced filter. added new oil. ran 5 min. let stand 1 min, checked level. now at full mark and clean.

Hydraulic
removed speed control part #2. used a JIC to JIC elbow to connect hose B to D, live deck and conveyor operated normally. normal sound
Connected hose B to C
Log Feed - operated correctly, with squealing noise
Clamp - operated correctly, with squealing noise
Wedge - operated correctly , with squealing noise
Splitter - operated correctly forward, VERY slow in reverse, Fluid leaking at cylinder, with squealing noise
Saw - spun correctly, did not lower to cut, acted like it would raise if it had lowered., with squealing noise

"let the machines do the work"

North River Energy

If the splitter ram is retracting very slowly, and leaking from around the rod seal, then you may have a bad piston seal.
You won't hear squealing from the live deck and conveyor because those motors are turning without any load.
The squeal from the other functions might be related to sending full pump flow through a circuit that only wants to see a portion of that in normal use.


I'd take a look at the splitter ram internals next. You need to replace the rod seal anyway.

Hilltop366

To me it looks like you have isolated the problem to the "c" side of things, according to your drawings and description of the results everything that works with a squealing sound is connected to the "L" return. I'm thinking there is a restriction in the return side, first guess would be stuck valve that is common to all functions #6.

DDW_OR

today the weather is wet, cold and miserable, so i am staying inside.

In the photo the fluid flow is from right to left.

 

i see three plans of attack. will post each plan separately and see which plan gets the most clicks on the "like" button.

plan one: is to take the entire machine to Phoenix Hydraulic and have them fix it.
I do not have the tools, nor the skills, to fix cylinders.
"let the machines do the work"

DDW_OR

plan two: remove the parts, then take the parts for repair
"let the machines do the work"

DDW_OR

plan three: try to do the repairs myself. may take a month of running back and forth.
"let the machines do the work"

Hilltop366

Can you tell where the squealing sound is coming from?

North River Energy

Quotetake the leaking cylinder to Phoenix Hydraulic and have them fix it

From the sound of things, you probably have two problems that just happened to coincide.
1, Contaminated/stuck flow control
2 splitter ram internal bypass

As mentioned previously, the squealing is probably the main system relief dumping excess fluid. In order to exceed the relief value, you need to 'overload' a circuit, and I don't think that will happen if the return line is somehow obstructed.
Just for giggles, you might try reversing the lines to the splitter ram. If it's still slow to retract, then you can probably rule out the valve in favor of the cylinder.

DDW_OR

Quote from: DDW_OR on December 23, 2016, 12:42:03 PM
......will post each plan separately and see which plan gets the most clicks on the "like" button.....

I have learned i cannot see how many "likes" each idea got. so could someone please post how many each idea got.
"let the machines do the work"

DMcCoy

Quote from: North River Energy on December 23, 2016, 04:07:29 PM
Quotetake the leaking cylinder to Phoenix Hydraulic and have them fix it

From the sound of things, you probably have two problems that just happened to coincide.
1, Contaminated/stuck flow control
2 splitter ram internal bypass

As mentioned previously, the squealing is probably the main system relief dumping excess fluid. In order to exceed the relief value, you need to 'overload' a circuit, and I don't think that will happen if the return line is somehow obstructed.
Just for giggles, you might try reversing the lines to the splitter ram. If it's still slow to retract, then you can probably rule out the valve in favor of the cylinder.
x2

The rust you mention finding seems to coincide with that area that is malfunctioning.  I would want to know how that got there->where it came from.  If it came from the tank I would clean or replace the tank so you don't do this all over again.  There are in tank suction screens available.  I would want to make sure I am fixing the problem not just the symptoms. 

DDW_OR

Finally contacted Multitek.
they said to check the diverter ( 9 ) on the saw control section



  


 


 
"let the machines do the work"

Al_Smith

Wow that thing looks like plumbers nightmare .In spite of that what usually happens no matter what the system is  it will be a mechanical failure of some kind

Meaning it could be stuck valve,broken spring ,even a piece of gunk that got circulated through the system and lodged under a pressure relief valve .It really doesn't take much.

With all the valves in a neutral position you should have full flow through the return line which for all intents will not show any pressure. If you could break into the return line so you could watch the flow and with the engine at idle by operating the various valves it should lead you to the blockage or bypassing condition .

Assuming that is a portion of the system is in fact working .Start from that point down stream from the last known point and work from there .

I think were it myself the first thing I would do is check every relief valve first .It's not a big deal .You just unscrew the relief  spring and check for junk or a bad seal .Just don't loose the parts .Count the turns when you unscrew  and put the same amount back in when rescrew it .( I coined a word,rescrew ) :D

Don't abandon ship it's gotta be there some place . I might add if you have the model and make of those valves most times if you do a Google you can find the specs and working drawings on same .Surplus center hydraulics is very helpful .

Al_Smith

Further rambling on,directional valves.Most of them are a spool type valve that shift the flow in one direction  or another .Between the "stage'"of the spools are seals of some kind which depending  design could be o-rings or some variation of same,might have backers,square ,just depends .If one of those seals blows out the valve will bypass to the relief line .Pretty easy to tell from operating the valve and watching the return flow .If operated and the flow doesn't slow down that's where it's at .

It's probably a very good machine but by looking at the pictures is most likely a monumental pain in the neck to work on .10 pounds of potatoes in a 5 pound sack.

DDW_OR

I took the splitter ram to be repaired, now does not leak.
still slow return.

moved the FV-8460 up to be with the other controls. put it to the left of the flow control #2.
adjusting the flow control so the D line side works correctly makes the C line side stop working. same is true if i do it the other way.
the Flow control has one input and two outputs, one of the outputs is labeled CF.
is CF for Constant flow or Controlled flow. i think Constant flow.

i am going to take lines C and D and swap them and see what happens.

Quote from: Al_Smith on December 30, 2016, 07:16:49 AM
With all the valves in a neutral position you should have full flow through the return line which for all intents will not show any pressure. If you could break into the return line so you could watch the flow and with the engine at idle by operating the various valves it should lead you to the blockage or bypassing condition .

"break into the return line", i assume it is where line L joins with line N and have line L drain into a Clean bucket so the fluid can later be put back into the Hydraulic tank.
maybe have line L drain through a metal kitchen strainer?
"let the machines do the work"

DDW_OR

Everything "seems" to be working
swapping lines C and D did nothing so i put them back to original positions.
did not break into the return line.
will be re-assembling today and cutting some firewood to see how it works.

will add a second speed control to give lines C and D their own speed control.

wish i knew more about hydraulic controls.
i would like to move lines I J K over to O P
have E and H direct from pump and I J K O P supplied by the flow control.
looking at the valve blocks it looks like it could be done.


 
"let the machines do the work"

TroyF21

It sounds like you have a piece of something such as a piece of hydraulic hose an o ring or rubber stuck in the pump if it will only run for a short time .

DDW_OR

well i cut up a few 12 foot logs and everything is working.

thank you for all of the help

will be doing the following modifications:
remote throttle control
measure device for last piece of log.
retainer spring for bar that supports last piece of log

support bar extended

  
support retracted

  

measurement

 
"let the machines do the work"

Gearbox

You know way more about hydraulics than you did . It's the way most of us learned .
A bunch of chainsaws a BT6870 processer , TC 5 International track skidder and not near enough time

DDW_OR

Yep, i went from Very Green to just Green
"let the machines do the work"

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