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Price for logs.

Started by Florida boy, November 22, 2016, 01:39:17 PM

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Florida boy

I've had my mill for 2 months or so and have kinda been looking for avenues to buy logs. I'm hobby milling so I won't pay much for logs. But had a friend say that he knew someone with fresh felled pine and oak that was straight and sizeable. Wanted to know if I might be interested. I said sure and we'll be riding out to look at em this weekend and I'll meet the owner.
   Question is what is wood in log form worth? I've read somewhere that the price should be about 10% of the price lumber would go for? I will scale it all to have a figure to start with.
   The next thing is a may be able to offer up my services as a " sawyer" but don't know where to really start withe pricing. I know that most mills in my area are 30 to 45 cents a board foot for mobile milling. But there usually hydraulic I'm not. Pretty much all manual here except head up down. I feel somewhat comfortable  milling for someone else. Since ive had the mill ive learned alot. All I have is 25 hp tractor and boom pole/ can't hooks. Any ideas or advice is very much appreciated.

ChadH

Around here, I'll use a logging truck load for example, one load has 40m3 or raw logs. With the math converted that usually means around 16,000 bdft. Take that with a grain of salt tho becaus it doesn't account for any waste you will encounter.

Up here red cedar for example is $270.00 per metre. These are nice logs that will likly yield high numbers when milling. Then you have trucking, and scaling fees, and then tax. So by the time that loaf reaches my yard it's about $14,000.  My price per bdft is $0.87with out even touching the log. Luckily we can sell our cedar for around $2.00 bdft, depending on type of product and up from there.

That being said, gang logs which range from 8"-16" are $140 per metre. Your risk is greater for higher waste with these loads.

I have a few tree services who sell me logs.
I usually try to calculate the volume of a log and work out a bdft price from there. I always try and get it cheap but some rare types of trees I don't mind paying extra for. Also watch residential wood that you don't pay to much because the risk of hitting metal could eat up your blades taking any profit you might of had.

I recently got 6 oak trees nice and straight, my cost was having a machine come in to remove them. I hired a tree service with a small Vermeer tracked unit with a log grapple and he was in and out in 2hours loaded on our trailer. $300 buck. I was happy to pay just that for my oak trees.

If the price makes you feel good, it's usually worth getting.

Always try to also account for your time or hiring a truck to move the logs, and whether machines are needed on either end to move the logs. These things can quickly turn nice logs in to costly logs with out spending the time to cut them. I have turned away a lot more wood then I have bought due to unrealistic expectations from the sellers.
Chad H
Westcoast Custom Timber

Wood-Mizer LT35 Hydraulic sawmill
Stihl 090 X2 in running order
Stihl 460 36" bar
Husqvarna 345 18" bar
Granberg Alaskan sawmill

WH_Conley

I know nothing about pricing of logs in your area. As far as price for sawing. It does not make any difference if your mill is manual or all the bells and whistles, you are pricing by the foot of finished lumber, not the hour. Do a quality job, regardless of speed and charge accordingly. Quality=higher price.
Bill

goose63

 

 

I payed $3000 for 3 loads like this close to 40 cord's
It's my trailer and a friend's truck $660 in fuel. The logger told me it was 10 cord's per load but at 3800 lb's a cord and it was 85.000 a truck load for two and one was 95.000 and the truck is 30.380 empty
goose
if you find your self in a deep hole stop digging
saw logs all day what do you get lots of lumber and a day older
thank you to all the vets

Brad_bb

I was where you are two years ago. 
1. learn to calculate BF by the Doyle Scale.  Or use a calculator on the web.  You enter the small end diameter and length and it tells you how many sawable BF are in the log.  Then you can pay for the log based on BF (board feet).  I'm assuming you understand what a board foot is?

2. You can alter your board foot price based on the quality of the log or the length.  I am primarily making beams, so the longer the log the better for me.  I pay more for 18'+

3. Develop your sources.  Everyone has to develop their sources for logs.  I do mean develop.  You have to cultivate a relationship overtime with your sources often times.  Logging is not a normal business were I am.  Tree services are.  To them the wood is a nuisance.  Often it goes for firewood.  I had a hard time trying to get any tree service to work with me.  Frustrated, I ended up developing  a relationship with a really good firewood guy who already had relationships with all the tree services.  He gets more logs than he needs from them.  He's also willing to take a lot more pieces with less discrimination that I would have.  I don't want logs that I can't mill because I'm not in the firewood business.  He can take everything.   They only bring him trunks though, not branches.  He's got one tree service that will leave logs long and let the firewood guy pick them up.  He let's me mark what I want in his yard and delivers them to me for a fee and a cost per BF Doyle scale that I/we determined.  He saves walnut saw logs for me too and looks for certain odd stuff I look for.  Sometimes I'll mill a log or two for him for his own woodworking projects.
  I've also developed a relationship with another sawmill guy who is also logs himself.  He was very wary of me being competition, very wary.  He eventually understood that I am not competition for him.  I haven't sold any wood so far.  It's all been for me.  He won't sell me prime logs that he saws for hardwood lumber.  Well, at least not at any reasonable price.  But I specialize in curved and wonky timbers, and Osage which is hard to work with.  He'll sell me that stuff at firewood prices.  For every good piece I get out of it, I'll figure what I paid and what I can really afford to be into it for and pay him the difference.  The first time I did that, it shocked the hell out of him.  He will also deliver what I've marked in his yard for a small fee.  It helps clean his yard of stuff he won't mill, that would end up as firewood, but he gets better than firewood price without having to make firewood. 
   A couple weeks ago a guy called me who has sold me antique industrial light fixtures (that's his business).  Through all of our talking he knew what I did with wood and asked If I wanted the 3 cherry trees in his yard he'd be taking down.  I did have to spend 5 hours with my log arch fetching them out of his back yard and loading, but it was a learning experience.  These were not yard trees, but rather his back yard had been a forrest that these trees grew up in. 
   It also depends on how much work you want to do.  Right now I'm advertising for a certain type of wood that rarely gets used for anything but firewood, but I'm making special pieces.  I'm targeting farmers, and I'm going to cut it.  I'm going to cut it and maybe fetch it out an accessible area and hire someone to move the pieces to my place.  This will give me an idea if I want to invest in a bigger truck and trailer  and skid steer myself in the future.
   Good luck and develop your sources!

4. It may be easier to find logs, but more difficult to get them transported.  You may have to pay a hauling fee at first got get free or cheap logs brought to you.  You have to figure that into the cost of the logs.  Hopefully you'll have enough hauled in a load to make the hauling fee worth it.  My firewood guy is 45 minutes away and he charges $100/load on his 2 ton truck and trailer.  The other sawyer who brought me his "firewood" logs charged me $50 and $10 per firewood log (8-16" dia). 

5. What exactly should you pay?  Well that is up to you to figure out.  Many factors.  What logs sell for in your area, what the competition is for logs.  How much can you afford to pay and still make money?  How quickly do you need make your money back?  Just as some examples.  I pay .25-.50 BF for various ash, cherry, and oak.  White oak has been at the higher end especially for better quality logs(but he doesn't get a lot of them).  Ash has been more prevalent as so many are killed by emerald Ash beetle and are plentiful.  I pay on the lower end for those.  If he has a good locust, mulberry or something else, I'll mill it.  For Walnut saw logs, I pay $1-1.25 BF Doyle.  Again, I only occasionally get those.  I will also mill Osage orange for my own use (aka Hedge apple, aka Bodark).  I either get that for firewood prices or free.  I've still got to get it transported though.  Most sawyers don't mill it cause it's so hard and hard on bands. 

6. Beware of yard trees.  I've gambled with the firewood guy for logs.  He gets them from tree services.  Luckily his relationships get the tree services to NOT bring him the true yard tree logs.  His tree service sources do a lot of rural work too, so it's better than a true city tree service.  Don't pay full price for true yard trees.  If you do, you'll be out the cost of bands plus the price you paid.  Tree services are usually looking for places to dump their logs.  They got paid to take them down.  Keep that in mind.  I've had relatively few metal strikes from my firewood log source, although I just saw a cherry log come in with a lag bolt sticking out.  I'll want the metal detector over that one well.  Also, metal is usually going to be in the butt log up to head height.  So metal detect butt logs on the big end. 

Hope this helps.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

ozarkgem

Quote from: goose63 on November 22, 2016, 05:36:03 PM


 

I payed $3000 for 3 loads like this close to 40 cord's
It's my trailer and a friend's truck $660 in fuel. The logger told me it was 10 cord's per load but at 3800 lb's a cord and it was 85.000 a truck load for two and one was 95.000 and the truck is 30.380 empty
OK Goose what is the thing on the end of your boom? Nice logs.
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.

Kbeitz

I think it's a big hammer...
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

Gearbox

Those load bumpers are the cats meow . Our paper mill uses them to keep the 20 ft. piles tight and even . Just bigger than that  one
A bunch of chainsaws a BT6870 processer , TC 5 International track skidder and not near enough time

WV Sawmiller

Quote from: WH_Conley on November 22, 2016, 04:59:45 PM
I know nothing about pricing of logs in your area. As far as price for sawing. It does not make any difference if your mill is manual or all the bells and whistles, you are pricing by the foot of finished lumber, not the hour. Do a quality job, regardless of speed and charge accordingly. Quality=higher price.

Beat me to it. My thoughts exactly.

FB,

   What do want to do with the wood? If just wanting to practice and are willing to saw mobile might advertise in local trade papers or FB that you are willing to saw on shares and either bring the logs home or saw on site and bring the lumber till you are more confident in you abilities then stop and just saw for cash. You can tell the customers you are just starting and want to practice so they are not expecting precision cutting. Reminder - most people I have seen here on the FF recommend when sawing on shares divide the logs not the lumber. Customer may want 4/4 but you may want to make a fireplace mantel and framing lumber instead with your share. You can use the resulting lumber, sell it on FB/local trade papers or donate it to local worthwhile organizations, etc.

    When I was starting out I had plenty of trees I needed to thin or salvage and off my property and used the practice lumber to build a storage shed. It was fine for my needs but not always what I'd want to try to cut for or sell to a customer.

   Good luck.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

ozarkgem

Quote from: Gearbox on November 22, 2016, 07:27:33 PM
Those load bumpers are the cats meow . Our paper mill uses them to keep the 20 ft. piles tight and even . Just bigger than that  one
I am surprised the trucker would let you beat on their trailer with that thing. Make a good Walnut cracker.
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.

fishfighter

OP, I get pine logs for free in my area. I had ran ads on Craigslist and people do give them up for free. ;D I'm in the process of building a log trailer so I don't have to bring support equipment on the road to get logs. ;D

Also, call around to tree service guys. When they fell trees, around here they have to pay to dispose the trees. You do take a chance of getting metal in those logs. :(

I saw for myself and free is free which I like. :D

goose63

Quote from: Kbeitz on November 22, 2016, 07:17:44 PM
I think it's a big hammer...

That's what it is if a log is sticking out to far Dave pound's it in
goose
if you find your self in a deep hole stop digging
saw logs all day what do you get lots of lumber and a day older
thank you to all the vets

WDH

Pine sawtimber prices in your area are running about $25 - $28 per ton on the stump (stumpage not including logging and hauling).  This is what the landowner gets before logging. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Florida boy

Thanks everyone for your input I have a little better understanding of what I'm getting into. I do have logs at the house but no pine and very little oak. My intended use for the syp would be framing for a new deckand a mill shed. The oak would be kept for wood working and possibly flooring /trim in a house I plan on building in the next few years.
     As far as picking up the logs I typically use my tractor to fanagle them on a trailer but I hope to have a parbuckling rig for it soon. Instead of having to haul equipment an logs.
   This is all for personal use. As far as going to his site to mill I don't have the mill tagged  or insurance yet so that's kinda out until i get it straight. but if he want to bring them to me, how do you go about charging? Same board foot price as on the road? Just no other fees ( other than stickering) or do you up the charge for all the labor if they are not there ( tailing boards , removing sawdust, stacking.) All I have for support equipment is homemade 3 point boom pole and three point pallet forks for my 25hp all manual,( no live clutch, no power steering) bison tractor. Needless to say very labor intensive. Or when stationary does it change to hourly cause all the added steps?
   Lot of questions from a newbie but I know I've come to the right place to learn.

Magicman

Quote from: Florida boy on November 23, 2016, 08:24:36 AMMy intended use for the syp would be framing for a new deck.....
If that is for an exposed deck, then you should be using treated framing lumber.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Florida boy

I figured treated for everything 2' or less from ground. I plan on using at least a 2' eve to keep water off the deck maybe even screen it in. Do you think the framing and decking will be to moist at points of contact magicman? The deck elevation will be at least 3' above grade.

Magicman

QuoteDo you think the framing and decking will be to moist at points of contact magicman?
I doubt that my joints and points of contact ever dry out.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

WV Sawmiller

Quote from: Florida boy on November 23, 2016, 08:24:36 AM
     As far as picking up the logs I typically use my tractor to fanagle them on a trailer but I hope to have a parbuckling rig for it soon. Instead of having to haul equipment an logs.
   This is all for personal use. As far as going to his site to mill I don't have the mill tagged  or insurance yet so that's kinda out until i get it straight. but if he want to bring them to me, how do you go about charging? Same board foot price as on the road? Just no other fees ( other than stickering) or do you up the charge for all the labor if they are not there ( tailing boards , removing sawdust, stacking.) All I have for support equipment is homemade 3 point boom pole and three point pallet forks for my 25hp all manual,( no live clutch, no power steering) bison tractor. Needless to say very labor intensive. Or when stationary does it change to hourly cause all the added steps?
   Lot of questions from a newbie but I know I've come to the right place to learn.

FB,

   Until you get set up to parbuckle you can also sometimes use a snatch block and cable. Hook the snatch block to the front of your trailer, one end to the log and the other to a stump another stationary item or to a vehicle. If you are hooked to a stationary item drive forward slowly dragging the log into the trailer. If hooked to another vehicle you can use that vehicle to pull the logs on to the trailer or use it as a stationary object. You will need to have a tailgate or ramp to slide the logs up.

   As to pricing I charge the same at home as at the customer site. I have a different rate if I don't have a helper on site or at home. I do offer a "while you wait service" for small orders where the customer schedules then brings logs and leaves with lumber and off bears as I cut. If he leaves his logs and leaves a trailer I don't require a deposit as I have it for collateral and can stack straight off the mill on to his trailer and reduce handling. The big difference if I saw at home is I do not have a minimum order charge (generally 1,000 bf) and no mobilization fees.

   If I did not have insurance I would not saw mobile or allow anyone else around my mill or lumber yard. I'll self insure my equipment but I can't afford the liability so have insurance for that.

   I don't know what Florida's regs are on tags for sawmills. WV defines it as a piece of mobile equipment and no tag is required. Different states have different rules. Check first with your state.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Florida boy

I've actually used a snatched block and 3/8" cable to put logs on the trailer many times but not the way your describing exactly but I will have to try it.
  I've always brought a ladder and a few straps to hang the block from a tree or big limb. Pull the trailer up to where the last few feet are under the block and have logs staged a few feet behind the trailer. Then hook the cable to the end of the log. As the close end comes up the opposite end of the log moves forward. Let it down half on the trailer. Re hook a little farther down on the log and pull again. Now it slides forward because Center of gravity. An then if you need too, hook again and move it forward for position on the trailer.
         This is how I've done it a few times and have been able to load  a 14' x 40" pecan log and a red cedar log 12' x 38" before. Pretty cool to see huge log suspended by cable and block.wish I had a picture to share... next time I'll get one.

flyboy16101

Dose anybody use the Hardwood Market Report or is more suited towards the bigger mills. I have considered a subscription a couple times but it seams like a lot of money.
Wood-mizer Lt35, International 504 w/ loader, Hough HA Payloader, Stihl Ms290, Ms660, LogRite Cant Hook

WV Sawmiller

FB,

   My system is not dependent on a limb nearby to hang a log from. The last time I used this I dropped the tailgate on a couple of stickers to slide on the pavement with a spotter to make sure they did not come off. Of course the logs I loaded were not as big as the ones you describe. I had a long cable and just wrapped the excess around the stump to I did not have to drag the  log as far. I love my snatch blocks and use them often.

   Good luck and be careful.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

Jesper Jepsen

Here in Denmark I buy my hard wood, mainly beech an a little oak from the government forest. They don't sell lumber to other that big sawmills but anybody can buy their firewood witch comes in 9 foot lengths.
Because I aim for the planks with grain patterns the logs that the sawmills and floor companies don't want I do so I'm paying firewood prices for my logs or get the more special wood from gardens and farmers that are cutting old apple trees down or other species from gardens.
What don't end up as boards, planks and beams ends as dust or firewood so not much waste.
The price for beech firewood logs are around $60 for a cubic meter (around 35,3 cubic feet) solid wood if the logs are above 13" i diameter a little more under that because people don't like to handle the big logs for making firewood.

ozarkgem

Quote from: Jesper Jepsen on November 23, 2016, 11:59:01 PM
Here in Denmark I buy my hard wood, mainly beech an a little oak from the government forest. They don't sell lumber to other that big sawmills but anybody can buy their firewood witch comes in 9 foot lengths.
Because I aim for the planks with grain patterns the logs that the sawmills and floor companies don't want I do so I'm paying firewood prices for my logs or get the more special wood from gardens and farmers that are cutting old apple trees down or other species from gardens.
What don't end up as boards, planks and beams ends as dust or firewood so not much waste.
The price for beech firewood logs are around $60 for a cubic meter (around 35,3 cubic feet) solid wood if the logs are above 13" i diameter a little more under that because people don't like to handle the big logs for making firewood.
[/quote
423 bf in a cubic meter. so roughly 15 cents a bf. Not bad. course you have to log them.
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.

WDH

Yes.  I use it as a guide to price my lumber.  Since the HMR is for wholesale tractor trailer loads at the sawmill (hauling and freight is not included), I generally double the HMR price for small volume retail sales.  For example. FAS, kiln dried, rough, black walnut is priced at $4.07/BF.  So, my small volume retail price for planed, kiln dried, good grade black walnut lumber is $8.00 per BF. 

Just a note of interest.  The difference between the green price and the kiln dried price for all species except walnut is about $.50 - $.55 per bf.  Walnut is more because it is usually steamed before drying. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

paul case

I have a good friendship with a couple mills just a few miles from me and they haven't changed log prices much for almost 2 years. I just try to keep up with about how much they pay and do close to the same..  I have been selling logs to one of them has been running short as he has sold me logs before when I was out and had orders to fill. Works out good for the both of us.

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

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