New to drying wood, Many questions

[Leggman]

Now that my sawmill is running I need some information on what to do next. I plan to build a solar kiln next spring but for now I need to get some boards stacked and stickered?
I have a neighbor who says wrap it good in tarpaper but I just don't know.
How big do I cut the stickers?
How far apart do I place them?
Should the stickers be of similar type of wood as I am stacking?
Thanks.  Dave

[Den Socling]

Yes, you need to get your lumber on sticks. There have been many threads and post about the subject at this board. I didn't try a search but I suggest words like sticker, stack, air drying and anything else you can think of. You may be reading for a long time.
As far as the tar paper, that's a bad idea. You need some air flow with a piece of roofing or something similar on top.

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

The book DRYING HARDWOOD LUMBER likely has all the info you require.  Download it.

[David Freed]

The book DRYING HARDWOOD LUMBER likely has all the info you require.  Download it.

I have that book. I learned a lot from it when I was getting started.

I have a neighbor who says wrap it good in tarpaper but I just don't know.

I've read other situations where people recommend wrapping it up. I would like to hear their reasoning on how it would dry if you trap the water.

[thecfarm]

Trap the water sounds bad to me.   :  And I don't even know what I am doing.
I have read post on here of the ones that know.

[DDW_OR]

I am also new to drying.

i think the stickers should be the same in thickness an width, 1x1 or .75 x.75
or should they be 1x1.5 ?

[DDW_OR]

The book DRYING HARDWOOD LUMBER likely has all the info you require.  Download it.

is this the book?
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/fpl_pdfs/impgtr02.pdf

[Den Socling]

Leggman, you need three things for conventional drying. Enough heat to make liquid water molecules bounce out of liquid to vapor state. Air dry enough to pick up more water molecules than it leaves behind. And enough air movement to carry the vaporized water away.
Some people wrap with porous material like burlap but wrapping with something like tar paper would leave you with nothing but a big moldy mess.

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

Here is the correct book.
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr118.pdf

The most common sticker is dried hardwood,  like oak, 3/4" x 1-1/4 or 1-1/2" wide. An 3/4" x 3/4" is ok but is fairly weak. If the two dimensions are too close, some sticks will be on edge.   Again, pine is used but is weak and often warps.

[Leggman]

I thought the tarpaper idea sounded wrong. What about a solar kiln? Do they work?

[Ianab]

What about a solar kiln? Do they work?

Yes they work. With a solar kiln you set up the things you need to dry wood.
Heat - from the solar collector
Air flow - From the fans
Ventilation - Vents that you open to let the moisture out.

They aren't as fast as a conventional kiln, because they only dry for ~8 hours day, and are even slower in the winter. But they are pretty forgiving to operate because the wood can "rest" and equalize between the drying periods. This makes surface checking etc less likely, which can be a problem if wood is dried too fast. They are also cheap to build and operate.

So for a small scale hobby operation, they make perfect sense.

[clusterbuster75]

I've only dried several thousand board feet... but my 2 cents..
My miller once had me put tarps around my piles with fans running so my top quality stuff wouldn't dry too fast but needed fans to keep air moving.

I've stickered it inside grain bins and left it outside with tin on top with quality results.

I tried drying some indoors and got mold growing till I got some de-humidifiors running.. Bad idea... Don't dry inside.

[Randy88]

Sticker thickness depends on how wide the lumber piles are, the wider they are the thicker the stickers will need to be in order to get the air to flow through and take the moisture out of the lumber.   Myself I like 1/2 inch thick stickers, mainly because it lowers the height of the lumber pile, my dad likes 3/8 inch thick, but this is from logs that have been felled for a while and laying around for up to or over year, if your sawing logs where the tree's were live last week or even this week, you'd want thicker stickers.   Lumber species also comes into play here somewhat on sticker thickness.    I only have hardwoods, nothing soft, mainly cherry, oaks, walnut, maple, ash and elm.   

Lumber thickness also comes into play on sticker thickness, planks we start with thicker stickers, maybe 3/4 inch thick and after we restack the lumber in a year or so, we go thinner to shorten the height of the piles.    My piles are also no more than four feet wide and we stack them sideways to the prevailing winds so air can flow through better.     

I'd never wrap the pile in anything, only put a tin cover on the top and sit them outside if you don't have a lean on a shed you can set them under.       

There are a lot of variables to take into consideration, the reason many recommend thicker stickers is the thicker you go the more forgiving air flow is and all the variables that are involved.     

If you have no stickers between the lumber, your in big trouble, we sticker everything as it comes off the mill or within a few days of being sawn at the most.     

As for what species to use for stickers, if the stickers are dry, it won't matter, if wet sawn as you go, some claim it has to be the same as the lumber, others not, also depends on how long before the lumber is used, restacked or moved and sorted.  I've never paid any attention to what type of wood the stickers are made of, but we also use dry stickers or make them from old boards, if sawn green, I've never cared what they were made of, we just use them and as for sticker stain, its never been an issue for me, never seen it in my life only ever heard or read about on here.     

Myself I'd stack the piles outside for about 3-6 months before moving the stacks inside.    I like my lumber under a roof and out of the elements and I prefer the piles set on a concrete floor elevated up about a foot or more off the concrete, but I also know that's not possible for most.     

Any kiln will work, never used one myself, I have enough lumber around I have plenty of time to let mother nature remove the moisture for me, I don't need to hurry the process up any, that and I don't sell or use it fast enough to worry about, it'll all end up stacked, stickered and in sheds somewhere for years before using any of it.

If your new to sawing or handling lumber, the main thing to remember is get something between the boards as soon as you saw, then you have time to figure out the more ideal way to go about it, without stickers all your work is for nothing, it'll mold and your lumber will be junk.

[Cazzhrdwd]

Excellent post Randy. I use 5/8 and 1/2 in stickers made out of Oak. I do that because I need to get as much in my kiln as possible, I'm using a refer unit. I've found the best spot on my lot to air dry. This particular spot has the most air flow and uses the prevailing winds. I saw mostly Poplar and it has to dry very fast as to not get black mold.

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

Thicker sticks encourage faster drying, especially air drying.  In a kiln with thicker sticks, you might dry more quickly, but with less lumber in the kiln, this offsets the gain.  With thinner sticks, irrational air flow means irratic drying rates and longer drying.

For hardwoods, 99% of the people use 3/4" thickness to provide good uniform air flow and good strength for the sticks so they do not break easily.  The same for softwoods, except really fast softwood dryers need even thicker sticks.

Although any species is ok, dryness is critical to avoid stain.  Denser species are stronger and last longer.

[WDH]

If you leave the hardwood lumber sitting outside under cover here for years, you are certainly going to get powderpost beetle infestations unless you treat the lumber with borate. 

[gww]

WDH

If you leave the hardwood lumber sitting outside under cover here for years, you are certainly going to get powderpost beetle infestations unless you treat the lumber with borate.

Is the beetle thing true if you have built stuff or just for stacked lumber.  It treatment a requirement for all hardwood?
Thanks
gww

[xlogger]

If you leave the hardwood lumber sitting outside under cover here for years, you are certainly going to get powderpost beetle infestations unless you treat the lumber with borate.

Danny, do you think that the PPB attacks kiln dried as fast as wood air drying?

[WDH]

If you don't sterilize the hardwood in a kiln and then you build furniture with the wood, there is always a chance that there might be powderpost beetles in the lumber.  You will not know until the eggs hatch and the adults emerge.  That can be several years later.  From my experience, the hardwoods that are the most susceptible are the ring porous hardwoods like all the oaks, red and white, hickory, ash, pecan, elm, sap walnut, and persimmon.  The diffuse porous hardwoods like sap cherry, maple, and yellow poplar do not seem to be preferred by the beetles, but I have had powderpost beetles infest some of my yellow poplar.  The seem to like the woods with the large earlywood pores for the larvae to migrate into the wood. 

Ricky, all the issues that I have had with PPB's have been in air dried hardwood that sat outside under the cover of a shed for several years.  I have not had any issues with kiln dried lumber, however, almost all my kiln dried lumber has been sprayed with borate before air drying and kiln drying.  It is now standard procedure for me to spray all the ring porous hardwood lumber green off the saw.  I cannot tolerate even having the chance of PPB's in my hardwood lumber.  I do not always spray the diffuse porous hardwoods if I plan to but the wood in the kiln after it gets below 20% moisture content.

[Randy88]

Can you tell us more about spraying the lumber, I'm curious as to how you go about it, what it costs and overall, how it works and for how long it works.     

[WDH]

The spray costs about $1.50 per gallon of spray.  I use a 25 gallon ATV tank with a DC pump that delivers 60 psi.  I have a long hose with a wand at the end to spray the boards.  Not fun to do, but a necessity in these hot and humid parts. 

[Don P]

I usually use a shallow dip tray, just another way.
I think my biggest culprits are anobiid's, they do hit poplar, maple, sweet birch as well as oaks and even pine when they are really heavy. These will leave small holes and a volcano of frass on the surface shortly after sawing.

This is some the next morning after sawing, on black locust


This is one of the little frass volcanos, same morning on some poplar, they went down a whole lot quicker than the poor bugs on the locust

[Den Socling]

Where are you located, Don P?

[Randy88]

How long does it stay on the wood and will it survive after going through the plainer, sanding and finish on the boards?

[Don P]

Den, I'm outside of Galax, VA... I think you have some controls over at Turman Lumber?

Borate travels on the water, migrating on the wet from areas of high concentration to areas of low concentration. Applying it to wood right off the saw helps it get in deeper. It is a mineral so is inert. It stays in the wood unless something leaches it back out. That requires the wood be up around fiber saturation or above and in contact with a "sink", the ground or running water would pull it back out.

When you have a finish on the wood it is safe again so although I'm sure some is deep enough to make it through machining operations that isn't what I'm after with that dip. The post saw treatment gets the wood through drying. If I want to treat something like house timbers I'll dip or spray or roller paint them after machining with borate with a little glycol of some sort, which simply slows drying. That will leave a higher concentration near the surface. If you see crystals form on the surface lightly sand them off before finishing.

I have had crystals show under a finish and have clotted titebond once, I'd appreciate feedback from others there. It is in your shavings pile. Boron is a micronutrient and our soil test usually comes back needing more. It will kill vegetation if you overapply it somewhere, you are polluting at that point. Like any nutrient, necessary to a point and a pollutant beyond that point, scatter it widely.

I had a spill while transferring the 10% solution from the dip tank to my storage buckets and lost 4 or 5 gallons. I was concerned and figured I'd dig up that spot in the morning and spread it over a wide area. By the next morning the deer had done that for me, treating it like a salt lick.

One sign of overdose is a certain lack of interest in males. My wife wanted me to place licks around the garden  :D.

It occurs in high concentration in water in some places, like Afghanistan.

[Randy88]

Don, thanks for the explanation.   Is there any issues with mixing it with windshield washer fluid instead of just water for use in the winter and cold weather applications?

[Don P]

That's not a mixture I've heard of so no idea on what is in there or what that would do. I think the alcohols in washer fluid can go right into you.

Bora-care, one of the listed borate pre-mixes, contains ethylene glycol... regular anti-freeze. Another uses propylene glycol, RV antifreeze. Another uses polyethylene glycol, read a can of Dr Pepper or the jug of go lytely from the docs.

It does like to form rock candy in your solution, especially as the temps drop. Clean out sprayers well when you're done and try to use it all in a session.

[WDH]

Mixes better in hot water.  I mix it in 5 gallon buckets that are allowed to sit for 24 hours, and by that time, it is completely dissolved. 

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

A one-time spraying with borate (or dipping) penetrates the wood maybe 1/64" with wet wood or partly air dried.  Borate forms a barrier to prevent insects from getting inside the wood.  It does not affect insects already in the wood.

Borates are water soluble, so they wash off easily if the wood is exposed to rain.  Otherwise, the borate lasts for years.  In fact, if you sell borate treated wood, you are required to supply the customer with a consumer information sheet (CIS) for the borate.

If the kiln goes over 150 F, the wood is sanitized at that moment (but not forever), as this temperature heats the wood through and through to 133 F.  If the KD wood is then stored, there is no risk of PPB, becaus all PPB, except the lyctid PPB, do not inhabit low MC wood.  The lyctid PPB can be prevented by avoiding storage conditions that have wood that has not been KD at 150, avoiding contact with foreign wood, and avoiding storage that is NOT free of sawdust and other debris that can be a breeding ground.

As mentioned, the lyctid PPB can takes several years to appear in KD lumber.  When it shows up, the infection can be from your storage after KD, from shipping, or from the customer's wood handling, including other furniture.   Other PPB that infect air drying wood appear in weeks...the ambrosia PPB can have three crops of insects per year.  The lyctid PPB is only in hardwood lumber and almost 100% in grainy hardwoods, as the "holes" in the grain provide the location for the female to lay eggs.  The eggs hatch and the larva, which are initially minute in size, burrow into the wood so are not seen.  They grow inside for years inside with absolutely no evidence on the outside of the wood.   This is why borates do not affect them once they are inside the wood. When the larva are ready to convert to an insect, they burrow to the surface and leave sawdust and a tiny 1/32" to 1/16" hole.

Once we have infected wood, heat or fumigation is the only control.

[Den Socling]

Don, I wondered where the bugs were popping up so fast! And yes, my son, Garrett, has a lot of control systems at Turman. They have been a good customer for many years. They are a proponent of Dennis Clay, if I remember correctly. He has a schedule where he dumps - and I means dumps - heat and humidity while drying maple. Garrett builds special controllers to do this. The idea and his controllers have spread through the Shenandoah Valley.

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

A few comments about Boracare.

It is design to be mixed with water before use.  To kill existing insects, basically mix 1:1.  For a preventative, mix 5 parts water to 1 part concentrate.  As a preventative, use 1 gallon of the 5:1 dilution per 400 BF of lumber.

Although it uses ethylene glycol, there is no free ethylene glycol in the mixture...I believe it converts to ethylene oxide, which is not car antifreeze.

Indeed, the glycol is the hazardous part of Boracare, so avoid eye contact and avoid contact with children especially...I think that means do not use treated wood for baby cribs, toys, etc.

The MSDS that you must provide to people that buy your lumber if you use Boracare is
http://www.biconet.com/crawlers/infosheets/boraMSDS.pdf

Note that you are advised to avoid the smoke from burning Boracare treated products. 

As much of the chemical when used on lumber by sawmills will end up in planer shavings, it is important to properly dispose of such shavings rather than use them for pulp and paper, burning, mulch, compost, animal bedding, etc.  This applies to the ultimate user of the lumber too.

I do not recall ever seeing medium or larger size commercial sawmills or wood manufacturers using Boracare or similar products in the US on their lumber or wood products.

[Don P]

The borate I've seen log home manufacturers use is DOT, disodium octaborate tetrahydrate. Timbor is the listed chemical for wood use. Solubor, chemically identical, is listed for ag use as a boron amendment. Both come out of the same pit, one goes into a bag that included the regulatory cost of listing as a fungicide and insecticide, the other into a bag listed as a soil nutrient. Timbor is correct for wood use, although I can argue that solubor is correct if the shavings are land applied. They are the same thing. If you use Timbor the shavings should be treated as waste. If you use Solubor and have a documented boron deficiency in the soil those shavings are allowable as a soil amendment under organic farming regulations. We have a win-win scenario in there if we use our noggins.

Several of those manufacturers dipped their logs but it was not mentioned or used as a selling point. I asked one of the managers at a plant one time why they didn't advertise that they were using borate. "If we advertise that we are treating the wood then we have to treat it to a standard, we are just buying you time during construction. I don't sell treated lumber."

Personally, my scale is tiny, the people that get borated wood from me know it but we should think all the way through scale. I'll ask for a cite of the law here, let's see the text of what is required.
Does a farmer hand me paperwork stating he put roundup on my corn flakes?

I learned in construction that people will quote "the code". Codified (written) law. All of these laws from cutting hair to murder are spelled out by some codified law. I learned to simply ask for them to cite me. When an inspector or a cop "cites" you, what you are getting is a citation, or recitation of the chapter and verse of the written law that pertains to the issue. Out would come the code book and we'd look it up. Only with that in front of you can opinion turn into a real discussion. Sitting on the tailgate or in some room full of suits, steel sharpens steel. We usually found we preferred and enjoyed the tailgate jousting.

Ethylene glycol in straight form can be bought at the paint store... its a common flow control additive for paints. The other glycols are non toxic if that is of concern. They simply dry slowly and help wet out the wood so the borate can get in deeper. Green lumber off the saw is fully wet, no wetting agent is needed. The addition of glycols is simply to wet out dry wood to enhance penetration. Those of you that farm know what we are talking about here, I believe any glycerin based soap would do the same thing. If there is more going on here chemically I'd like to see discussion of that.

I'm not sure what the freeze and crystallization points are. I'm not dipping this time of year but have done some in milder winter weather. At a 10% solution it will start to precipitate out crystals in the cold. In hot weather you can go up to 15% but clean any spray equipment really well.

This is one treater's website, no knowledge other than seeing it at the building supply. This is required in some areas with high insect pressure;
http://www.conradfp.com/building-products-bluwood.php#

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

Because Bora-Care will kill plants, it would seem that this material, including planer shavings, should not be used in soil.  The information on killing plants is in the MSDS, linked in an earlier posting.

Regarding the requirement to notify customers about treated lumber, including borates, this is covered under U.S. Department of Labor, Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA), Hazard Communication standard (HCS), 29 CFR 1910.1200.

Use of Round-up or similar pesticides is controlled so that none (or very little at limits set by the government) is in our food.  Some insecticides, when used on plants or animals, do show up in food and so their use is banned or restricted.  Some people do not like the governmental small levels permitted, so they use "organic" products like milk. 

Similarly, when preservative chemicals are added to wood by a processor, they are required to indicate this, as there can be disposal problems in wood waste or allergic problems by some people.  Treating, but not advertising it, is not acceptable. ( It is similar in some ways to having the use of peanut products mentioned in products, including if peanuts were used in the same processing facility, but are not in the product itself.)  The overall concern is people and environmental safety. The licensing of wood treaters is strictly controlled.  Enforcement is often at the state level.

[Don P]

I agree, shavings from bora-care or anything other than pure DOT should not be land applied. DOT itself is fine if your soil test report shows a deficiency of boron.

This is the OSHA Hazard Communication document;
https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=standards&p_id=10099

Labels and other forms of warning—
  1910.1200(f)(1)
Labels on shipped containers. The chemical manufacturer, importer, or distributor shall ensure that each container of hazardous chemicals leaving the workplace is labeled, tagged, or marked. Hazards not otherwise classified do not have to be addressed on the container.
I believe Solubor and Timbor fall under Hazards not otherwise classified
1910.1200(f)(4)(i)
For solid metal (such as a steel beam or a metal casting), solid wood, or plastic items that are not exempted as articles due to their downstream use, or shipments of whole grain, the required label may be transmitted to the customer at the time of the initial shipment, and need not be included with subsequent shipments to the same employer unless the information on the label changes;
  1910.1200(f)(4)(ii)
The label may be transmitted with the initial shipment itself, or with the safety data sheet that is to be provided prior to or at the time of the first shipment; and,
  1910.1200(f)(4)(iii)
This exception to requiring labels on every container of hazardous chemicals is only for the solid material itself, and does not apply to hazardous chemicals used in conjunction with, or known to be present with, the material and to which employees handling the items in transit may be exposed (for example, cutting fluids or pesticides in grains).

From my read of that, borated lumber heading for further processing should be labeled and linked to the MSDS. A finished product, an article, does not require labeling. A pre notched log home log would fall under this I believe. I don't see a problem there.

This is the MSDS for Timbor;
http://www.biconet.com/crawlers/infosheets/TimborMSDS.pdf
MSDS for Solubor;
http://www.compostwerks.com/images/Solubor_MSDS.pdf

The chemical composition and Chemical Abstracts Service (CAS) Registry Number are the same, Timbor has an EPA registration as well.

From the Solubor MSDS;

Federal Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act: Pursuant to 21 CFR
175.105, 176.180 and 181.30, Solubor is approved by the
FDA for use in adhesive components of packaging
materials, as a component of paper coatings on such
materials, or for use in the manufacture thereof, which
materials are expected to come in contact with dry food
products.

That is from the labeling of the ag product. I believe they are acknowledging other uses. When you read the MSDS's this is not recognized as a hazardous chemical, it can produce nuisance dust, the same classification as wood dust.

[Darrel]

Don, I've put tons of solubor on blueberries fields and often wondered why I couldn't use it on my lumber. Now I know that I can and I do believe it costs a bit less than the timbor.  The solubor is a very fine powder and dissolves rather quickly.