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Looking to plant seedlings.. what type?

Started by tareece, November 15, 2016, 11:22:44 AM

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tareece

Hey sawyers and friends,
      I have a piece of land.. about 10 total acres in Coastal NC.. it is covered with near worthless coastal myrtle after being allowed to go fallow for decades after being farmed..
    So i would like to convert the scrub into rows of trees that can be harvested in 20-30 yrs
    Most land like mine have rows of pines on it and I was wondering if cedars or oaks would possibly be a viable alternative to plant along with pines.
   Thoughts?
Todd Reece
Lover of many things. Experienced in most... expert in few

WDH

Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

treeslayer2003

the oaks may grow, but not to marketable in any 25 years. WDH does tulip poplar grow there?
tareece idk how much longer your growing season is than ours but even pine will only be a pulpwood harvest in that time here.

WDH

You cannot harvest anything other than pine in 20 - 30 years.  Typical pine rotations in the South are about 27 years for sawtimber and 18 years for pulpwood. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

treeslayer2003

wow thats fast. our first pulp thinning is around 20-25 but they will be short. the state is doing some pre commercial thinngs, i think thats a good idea but cost keeps private owners from doing that. i have some poplar here 30 years old, they average about 18" now.......i might get some veneer logs before i'm to old to cut um myself.

WDH

Down here, pulp thinning is at age 13 - 15 on high yield plantations.   

This stand was planted in 1997.  Being thinned in September 2009 in the 13th year. 



 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

treeslayer2003

Quote from: WDH on November 16, 2016, 08:16:21 PM
Down here, pulp thinning is at age 13 - 15 on high yield plantations.   

This stand was planted in 1997.  Being thinned in September 2009 in the 13th year. 



 
that is thinner than i have ever seen. maybe y'all got a better plan.

WDH

Thinned to 60 square feet of basal area.  I thin more aggressively than most.  In my opinion, most people thin too light.  The crowns need to be free to grow on all sides in loblolly pine. 

Stand before thinning.



 

Stand being thinned.  Every fifth row removed with selection in the remaining 4 rows.



 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

tareece

Thanks guys on the replies...
Since I'm 52 i am thinking the 1st harvest will probably be one I wont live to see. But its something i can work on, cultivate, and care for... so the whole purpose is to hand it and the land down to the kids.
     Pines are apparently the best investment and i have a source in mind that will sell seedlings by the thousands. NC FORESTRY Service lists several pines that they offer.
    My next thing is how many per acre and then thinning at what ratio.. i liked the response earlier by the gentleman from Georgia with fhe pics.
    I truly enjoy picking your collective brains... thank you
   
Todd Reece
Lover of many things. Experienced in most... expert in few

WDH

Plant on a 6' x 12' spacing.  That is 12' between rows and 6' between trees in the row.  That is 605 trees/acre.  When they reach thinning size, which is over 40' tall in total height, thin them to 175 to 225 trees/acre depending on how aggressive you want to be.  If you thin to the lower level, you will get faster growth and larger diameter trees when you do the final thinning at about age 20 when the final crop trees are selected. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

treeslayer2003

WDH you are making alot of sense to me. they planted a block for us at 8' wide and about 5' between trees. they are almost 15 years old now and thinning them selves. i have thought about thinning but the state says its not time yet. they are short, maybe 35' and kind of limby. high rolling sassafras sandy loam, well drained. it was crop land. i am almost afraid if i do thin they will get even more limby and stay short, but i fear this dry land will not support this many trees per acre. as a logger, i kinda depend on the forest service for guidance here, but wonder if we are wasting time.......

treeslayer2003

let me clarify, the county forester told me to thin when i thought it was the right time.......he thinks i know about young trees i guess lol.
its the ag side that says they are not ready. maybe i should ask the county forester to stop by and look.

curdog

Quote from: tareece on November 16, 2016, 10:18:00 PM
Thanks guys on the replies...
Since I'm 52 i am thinking the 1st harvest will probably be one I wont live to see. But its something i can work on, cultivate, and care for... so the whole purpose is to hand it and the land down to the kids.
     Pines are apparently the best investment and i have a source in mind that will sell seedlings by the thousands. NC FORESTRY Service lists several pines that they offer.
    My next thing is how many per acre and then thinning at what ratio.. i liked the response earlier by the gentleman from Georgia with fhe pics.
    I truly enjoy picking your collective brains... thank you
   
You'll have to wait until next year for nc forest service trees. The seedling crop was a loss this year due to the flooding from hurricane Matthew. They were under water for too long and caused damage to the root systems.

WDH

You can get trees from a number of private nurseries.  One is Arborgen.  The Weyerhaeuer nursery in Aiken, SC also sells to the public. 

Treeslayer, look at your crowns.  If the crown ratio (length of the live crown i.e the part with the green needles divided by the total tree length) is less than 40%, you should definitely thin them.  Needles grow wood.  The crown is where the growth engine is.  When you loose crown ratio due to tree density, growth slows and you end up growing lower value pulpwood on many trees.  Better to grow sawtimber on fewer more valuable trees.  Don't let the crown ration fall below 33% before you thin. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

treeslayer2003

Quote from: WDH on November 18, 2016, 07:47:55 AM
You can get trees from a number of private nurseries.  One is Arborgen.  The Weyerhaeuer nursery in Aiken, SC also sells to the public. 

Treeslayer, look at your crowns.  If the crown ratio (length of the live crown i.e the part with the green needles divided by the total tree length) is less than 40%, you should definitely thin them.  Needles grow wood.  The crown is where the growth engine is.  When you loose crown ratio due to tree density, growth slows and you end up growing lower value pulpwood on many trees.  Better to grow sawtimber on fewer more valuable trees.  Don't let the crown ration fall below 33% before you thin.
thanks wdh, that makes sense.

tareece

Ok.. now comes the big question
As u see from my avatar my land is near canals.. these canals are the flood water drainage routes to the Pamlico Sound which is less than 1/4 mile from me as the crow flies..
   So it is susceptible to high coastal winds and nearly constant breezes.
There is a 10 acre stand of Pine trees 11 mi to the north. They have never been thinned and look to be 30+ft tall..
I am wondering if i should fret the wind or salt water intrusion?
The land has a county drainage pump which makes it drain much faster than normal.
   The land is 2'ft above sea level... but Matthew and Sandy didnt register much as a factor. It was the ensuing flood waters that caused my pond to flood the plot.
   
Todd Reece
Lover of many things. Experienced in most... expert in few

treeslayer2003

i can tell you that salt water intrusion will slowly kill them in time. we are having an issue in the lower counties with that. not much we can do but harvest what we can, the bay will take it one day.

WDH

Treeslayer,

Here is the stand 8 years after the thinning.  Not the best pic, but you can see that they have really grown. 



 

Here is a view down a take out row.  You can see that the crowns have closed and the crowns are very healthy. 



 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

longtime lurker

Well if salinity and water logging are issues why not swing to a hardwood, and make it an exotic one at that? Exotic species will be less likely to have local pests and diseases. Dunno about the climate issues, but a lot of the Aussie hardwoods tend to be tolerant of high salt levels and periodic inundation,  River Red Gum, Blackwood, Mountain Ash can all do pretty well under those conditions and will give a market premium over "domestic " species that far outweigh the establishment costs.

Only issue is in a plantation setting you're probably looking at around a 45 year wait to harvest as sawlogs... you might get a lot more money but it aint no good if you're dead
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

tareece

Hey longtime..
   Thats the whole reason for the thread.. to figure out which type of tree
would be best for the lot... i know i can get my county ag agent to give his opinion... but wheres the fun for the board here if i do that?
Todd Reece
Lover of many things. Experienced in most... expert in few

treeslayer2003

Quote from: tareece on November 19, 2016, 10:40:57 PM
Hey longtime..
   Thats the whole reason for the thread.. to figure out which type of tree
would be best for the lot... i know i can get my county ag agent to give his opinion... but wheres the for the board here if i do that?
lol, and we like the discussion. but you should talk to your county forester, they will know the local issues.

tareece

Hey slayer... yeah i will.. matter of fact he lives 2 miles away from my land... so its no biggie.
Todd Reece
Lover of many things. Experienced in most... expert in few

longtime lurker

Australia has a lot of salinity issues... its that whole ancient seabed thing so that in a lot of places any rising water table either natural or manmade will cause salinity issues. Inland areas also get periodicly innundated often for months at a time... it dont rain much but when those inland rivers come down (often from rain thousands of mile away) they turn into a veritable sea. One hell of a sight to see I can tell ya...

Anyhow, heres a link:
http://agriculture.vic.gov.au/agriculture/farm-management/soil-and-water/salinity/trees-and-shrubs-for-saline-land

Victoria is south, and some of those species are lightly snow tolerant so might be worth a bit of googling to see just what could potentially survive there.

On that list I'd suggest the highest value species is Blackwood (Acacia melanoxylon), and its probably the fastest growing as well... and it grows in some pretty cold country in Tasmania.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

WDH

I would not plant anything that does not have a local market.  That is pine country you are in.  I spent a lot of time in eastern NC with Weyerhaeuser which owns about 500,000 acres in your area. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

thecfarm

That WDH guy knows.  ;)  I really enjoy your pictures. Around here not much do that. IP did have a few acres of some sort of pine up on top of the hill,maybe 10-20 acres.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

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