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Beginner cable skidder

Started by gman98, November 03, 2016, 06:24:09 PM

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gman98

Hello guys.  I'm currently going to college, but am starting to think it may not be the right path for me.  I've decided to look into buying a cable skidder and make a go at hand cutting.  I was wondering what you guys would consider to be good beginner cable skidders?  Something easy to run, easy to maintain, and something not too large?  Mainly looking to start out cutting smaller woodlots.

Thanks
Forest technician and part time equipment operator.  Looking to get set up with some logging equipment of my own.

Woodhauler

As someone said, most of my posts are negative/depressing But if you are going to collage stick with it!!!!!!  Can't you see the bright future of logging in maine??  Get your degree and if things are still ok in the logging side of things maybe give it a go! Atleast you would have a degree in something to fall back on.
2013 westernstar tri-axle with 2015 rotobec elite 80 loader!Sold 2000 westernstar tractor with stairs air ride trailer and a 1985 huskybrute 175 T/L loader!

thecfarm

Stay in college. I was not smart enough,to do the school.
There is ALOT to cutting wood. No money in pulp,may not be a market here in Maine either for it. Saw Logs is where the money is. But than there are the tops,pulp to deal with. Which is no market for.The smaller trees needs to be thinned out too. More pulp.Takes a good eye to grade a tree. Money can be lost with a wrong cut or a wrong market. Split the tree because you cut the notch wrong,can be a $1000 mistake.Need to know who is buying what and who is paying what. May even be a short market for a species. Maybe a certain length too.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

repmma

Go to Maine Maritime, work at sea for half the year, do what you want the other half.  And it pays.

Or get a trade for 2 yrs cheap schooling.

If you do 4 years of college, make sure it's in something that pays!!
Thomas 8020, Timberjack 225C, Ford 5030 with Norse 450 winch, stihl saws and 142 acres to manage.

AlexHart

As long as your not running up 200,000 dollars in student loan debt going for that sociology degree you'll never get a job with or use I would also vote to stay in school.   Even if its tough, knuckle down and get a degree (again... unless that's going to bankrupt you in which case we might want to look at the community college).    Its not like logging won't be tough and there is always going to be wood for you to cut in a year or two after you graduate.   

Plus remember, you hurt your back or suffer whatever kind of injury its not a bad idea to have a degree which can help provide fallback options. 

Life choices sermon aside though I don't think there really is such a thing as a "bad" skidder model.   You can get individual machines (obviously) that have been butchered and will be a constant problem but be it Deere, Cat, Clark, Timberjack..... they are all pretty good per se.   Of all the ones I've seen though for a 1 or 2 man small/poor/startup operation I would probably go with a D model John Deere.   540 or 548D if you can find one.   Of all the machines I've been familiarized with I think they just take the cake for me.  I think your repair frequency and cost might be ever so slightly higher than a Clark or a Cat or whatever but to me they are just a nice, nice, nice sized and comfortable machine.   You'll save more than a few bucks on fuel also.  440D is a pretty sweet little cable skidder as well.     

If your not afraid of spending a few bucks on fuel I actually think my 2nd choice would be a 518 Cat.   We have one operating here locally with like 26,000 hours on it... no problem.   Never even done anything with the driveline.   They are just built like a tank and with that oscillating bearing deal and torque converter something is always pulling or pushing.   I've been kind of rehabbing one this year myself and I have to admit I've been pretty darn impressed thus far.     

AlexHart

Quote from: repmma on November 03, 2016, 08:00:40 PM

If you do 4 years of college, make sure it's in something that pays!!

Yes... in one sentence he did a lot better than I did.   :) 

lynde37avery

I couldn't stand school. I bought a Franklin 130 then a Timberjack 208. easy to fix. small machines.
i made way more money cutting wood than I could ever imagine. true story.
but like the others said there's a lot to logging to learn. try logging part time while attending school?  just my thoughts on it.
Detroit WHAT?

killamplanes

Stay in school I did. Worked out great for me. Get something you can get parts for not to old, I got a 440 there old but parts are available. Yes there high but that's deere. I have good local support. But timberjack I hear good things.
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

BargeMonkey

Quote from: repmma on November 03, 2016, 08:00:40 PM
Go to Maine Maritime, work at sea for half the year, do what you want the other half.  And it pays.

Or get a trade for 2 yrs cheap schooling.

If you do 4 years of college, make sure it's in something that pays!!
I've got 2 "maniac" mates onboard here both from ME and you would think being ring knockers they would have each other's backs, we have bets which ones going to stab the other one in the back at anytime.

X5 on staying in school, if you want to log part time and build a business slowly and then jump is one thing but always having something to fall back on is key anymore. I know 3 other guys who work fairly decent jobs and keep adding iron and growing, the cost of keeping going and feeding yourself and maybe a family with a chainsaw and cable skidder can be very very rough, I've seen alot of guys fail down here.
I started out with a 440D, I've had a bunch of different skidders and they all suck to work on, yeah the older Jack's are great but they are a dying breed even if no one wants to come to terms with it. If I was going to make a go of it with a cable skidder and saw I would want nothing less than a G-series 540, preferably a 640 size machine. 8-10 5-6x a day and you can pound some wood out, again some people may not like it but I'm watching the 440-230 guys disappear quick and a 648 isn't uncommon on small lots here, the foresters and landowners want you in and out and gone, thats rough on bigger lots with long skids with a small machine. You can't truly be efficient without a loader / log truck / forwarder to slash and stack. If I had to do it again from scratch I would buy a dozer and 6 wheeler forwarder.
Right now it's a buyers market for equipment, you can find some nice older iron for short money. Good luck.  :D

Spartan

Quote from: lynde37avery on November 03, 2016, 09:07:41 PM
try logging part time while attending school?  just my thoughts on it.

That's actually a great idea.
Don't make the mistake of putting the cart before the horse.
you may want to do a little footwork and number crunching. 
Are you going to bid on your own sales and get your own contracts?  Or, are you going to contract yourself out to someone else to cut and skid?
lots to think about.  How much will you make?  What are your expenses possibly going to be?   That right there will be a big factor on what equipment you run.
Type of terrain, trees..... and budget are what I would consider before I invested in a machine.  That right there will tell you what machine you should be running.  Too old and it will nickle and dime you to death, or it may have a major breakdown that could bury you if your pockets aren't deep enough. too new and you may not be able to afford to run it.
There's a saying out here.
"People get rid of machines for a reason" so.....   Better be good at mechanics or willing to learn, and ok at welding if you will be on your own.  Farming that stuff out will break you. 
A good place to start may be getting on with a logging company to get some experience.  That way you will know a little bit what you are doing, how much to charge and what kind of equipment you might want to get.

It can take years to learn to do either of those two jobs efficiently.
But, don't let it discourage you.

and, for what its worth.
out here its a tough go to make a living in the timber industry, don't know what its like there.  Might be another good reason to finish your degree out first.

Ljohnsaw

gman98,

What are you taking now in college?  Are you at a two-year or a four-year college? 

I really didn't know what I wanted to do until the final semester of my two-year college.  A two-year school is a great place to try and figure out what you are good at.  I switched majors when I went into a four-year program.  Nothing to do with wood but I found it easy, fun and it paid well - well enough that I retired at 53 so I can play with wood now.

Don't discount school, and don't do what a lot of "kids" do and take some time off to think about it.  Once you get out of the school mode/mood, you won't want to go back.  While you are trying to figure it all out, maybe take some business or management classes.  They will always come in handy, especially if you plan to work for yourself.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

brianJ

"People get rid of machines for a reason" @Spartan

Thats me.   I always sold machines cause they run too well. :D

repmma

Quote from: BargeMonkey on November 03, 2016, 10:45:54 PM
Quote from: repmma on November 03, 2016, 08:00:40 PM
Go to Maine Maritime, work at sea for half the year, do what you want the other half.  And it pays.

Or get a trade for 2 yrs cheap schooling.

If you do 4 years of college, make sure it's in something that pays!!
I've got 2 "maniac" mates onboard here both from ME and you would think being ring knockers they would have each other's backs, we have bets which ones going to stab the other one in the back at anytime.

Well, they are mates so I'm not overly surprised... Unfortunately we can't keep all the rift raft out, all those southerners moving in from NY and Mass with their southern ways!  You know your not a true mainer till the 5th generation, I'd suspect they fall short or are from "southern" maine.  :D

Manuvering into Houston now at lovely 0100...  sure would rather be home in my bed every night but that just doesn't pay, especially in Maine!
Thomas 8020, Timberjack 225C, Ford 5030 with Norse 450 winch, stihl saws and 142 acres to manage.

repmma

Quote from: Woodhauler on November 03, 2016, 06:31:26 PM
As someone said, most of my posts are negative/depressing But if you are going to collage stick with it!!!!!!  Can't you see the bright future of logging in maine??  Get your degree and if things are still ok in the logging side of things maybe give it a go! Atleast you would have a degree in something to fall back on.

Seriously read Woodhauler's "more great news" post and read the headlines from the past year or two.  I'm nothing more than a hobbyist messing around with my land and sawmill, but setting back here on the sidelines of the industry... it don't look good in Maine!  Though equipment might start getting cheap...  :-\
Thomas 8020, Timberjack 225C, Ford 5030 with Norse 450 winch, stihl saws and 142 acres to manage.

celliott

Go to school and at least take some business classes or get a business management degree. Most anyone can learn to cut wood. But you need to be able to sell your wood, make payments, etc. etc. etc. there is a lot to the business side of things and I'd venture a guess more operations fail because they didn't know how to crunch the numbers than they didn't have a good skidder.

At the least you can get other jobs or be well prepared to start your own business.
Chris Elliott

Clark 666C cable skidder
Husqvarna and Jonsered pro saws
265rx clearing saw
Professional maple tubing installer and maple sugaring worker, part time logger

snowstorm

one question. who is paying the bill for you to go to school? if its you alone then its your decision. if your parents are paying you need to stay. 

gman98

Quote from: snowstorm on November 04, 2016, 06:26:12 AM
one question. who is paying the bill for you to go to school? if its you alone then its your decision. if your parents are paying you need to stay.
I am
Forest technician and part time equipment operator.  Looking to get set up with some logging equipment of my own.

gman98

Quote from: ljohnsaw on November 04, 2016, 12:05:27 AM
gman98,

What are you taking now in college?  Are you at a two-year or a four-year college? 

I really didn't know what I wanted to do until the final semester of my two-year college.  A two-year school is a great place to try and figure out what you are good at.  I switched majors when I went into a four-year program.  Nothing to do with wood but I found it easy, fun and it paid well - well enough that I retired at 53 so I can play with wood now.

Don't discount school, and don't do what a lot of "kids" do and take some time off to think about it.  Once you get out of the school mode/mood, you won't want to go back.  While you are trying to figure it all out, maybe take some business or management classes.  They will always come in handy, especially if you plan to work for yourself.
Forest management
Forest technician and part time equipment operator.  Looking to get set up with some logging equipment of my own.

ADK Logger

I left paul smiths school of forestry one semester from a four year major in forestry last fall to log and was offered many jobs from forestry companies and even had an opourtunity to be a  biologist for the usda when I uset to be a government trapper in alaska, Ive commercial fished and many other things but loved logging, my first skidder was a 648g3 and it had many issues i didnt know about from a bad dealer  but being new i didnt know the guys reputation or what to look for mechanically, I bought thousands of acres of woodlots, and had a large crew at one point, I also had a subcontract mechanized crew, I was screwed over by one of my subcontract crews, over thousands of dollars of timber money owed to me and timber contracts stolen, after all that, I bought a 748 and three 640 1980;s- 89 skidders all of them having issues I would come to realize were not normal. I could go on about the dissapointments but long story short Ive been told by dozens of people in the industry including loggers, that I have gone through more hardships logging between machines and  other loggers and people in the industry screwing me over than likely any logger  who has logged, and It will drag your moral down and harden you more than youll ever know. but point being I am 21 a year and a half later  owning my logging company I have more private wood and good wood than I can cut, And I have learned how to protect myself from schisters and bad people in the industry. I know a thing or two about skidders now to, but every mistake you could possible make or lesson learned in logging, I have learned the hard way. I am only twenty one. Finnish your degree, then if you want to log get into it, theres money in the right wood if your machines dont break, but thats a big if, repairs can ruin you as well as difficulties finding wood. I am fixing two of my 640s now, one has metal fillings in the hydraulic system, previous owner was a lying scumb. FINNISH FINNISH FINNISH school!!!!!!!!!! I still am not sure weather logging was a mistake or not, but if in another year it turns out to be, then I will look back and after all the contacts oppurtunitys  three years of college hard work  and think what a waste, you dont wanna have those pains in your head or experiences, just my two cents, Good Luck!

Puffergas

Jeff
Somewhere 20 miles south of Lake Erie.

GEHL 5624 skid steer, Trojan 114, Timberjack 225D, D&L SB1020 mill, Steiger Bearcat II

danbuendgen

True short story. Take what you want from it.

I dropped out of high school and got a job for a logger, kept logging, now I work for myself logging and selling firewood. It's a hard way to make a living especially with the economy in such rough shape. I often work evenings and weekends to make payments. Keeping old equipment is expensive in repairs and downtime. Plus you have the weather to contend with. Bidding against mechanized operations is very challenging when you work alone and use a chain saw and cable skidder, which is ancient technology at this point. One week I have 10k in the bank, next week I have $10! If you need help, workers comp is a nightmare for a small operation. I make it every month, but sometimes I think I should just work for someone else again. Less payments and a steady paycheck. But there are a ton of positive things about working for yourself, which keeps me going when things get rough.

My best friend went to collage to be a forester. Now he's a forester for a large timber company. In a lot of ways he hates his current job. But he makes $50k a year, he has good benefits and has his evenings and weekends off. He does put in a lot of hours, and it can be stressful. But he gets a steady paycheck and it's a year around job with no overhead. Now he is starting to pick up side work consulting and I'm sure when he has a lot of work he will go on his own.

If you can't tell already ..... I think if your book smart and good with people then go to school. Around here, consulting foresters make $70-90 per hour. That's a lot more then I make, plus they don't have the overhead loggers do. I could NEVER be a forester, I would HATE it. So it's totally up to who you are and what you want to do with your life.

But to actually answer your question about small skidders, I like a 240 Timberjack with the 4-53 Detroit. Easy to operate and fix, very stable on steep ground, and easy in and out. Cheap on fuel and good power. My 240 will pull 2000 feet of pine pretty well if your not going up steep hills. Currently thinking about getting a grapple skidder and hiring a feller buncher come and cut everything. I'm starting to think this is the best way for a small one man operation to be productive but keep cost low.

GOOD LUCK.

Husqvarna ~ TimberJack ~ Dodge Cummins

killamplanes

My real good friend and competitor has a forester degree. He is a logger with a crew of hand cutters, semi trucks etc. He is educated his family owns a mill. I ask him about consulting etc. He can do it etc. But it's not his thing he likes buying timber logging and Expecially the game of making every penny out of every log. But he uses his eduacation everyday though he may not realize it. I have alot of respect for him. Even if he sometimes beats me up on a tract.
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

killamplanes

I agree 648 more common than anything around here. My 440 viewed as an antique.  I just haven't made the plunge.
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

Spartan

Sounds discouraging, all the input.  Good wisdom here.  But remember this....
We are all still in the timber industry.  Even if we say its a bad idea.  It is his life, and life is full of risks.
If we think logging is so bad, we probably would have changed careers. There is a draw to it, and some of us are ok with being broke, or just barely making it. 
After all, money buys you options, not happiness.  Doctors make good money, but most are dead before 60.

Its funny, we're kind of like the smoking parent telling their kid not to smoke....




killamplanes

jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

mf40diesel

While It is not for everyone, I will second the going to sea route. I also went to Maine maritime, I know Bargemonkey doesn't care for us school kids. Haha. Been out almost 20 years. My work allows me the ability cut wood on the side for "fun," and not totally worry about making ends meet. It's not for everyone that's for sure. Being gone can be hard, but being home 6 months is pretty awesome too!
John Deere 5055e, mfwd. Farmi JL306 Winch. Timberjack 225 Skidder. Splitfire splitter & Stihl saws.

danbuendgen

Go to school and get your forestry degree, then buy a skidder and you can do the consulting and logging for the same landowner. And I would look into a older not beat up grapple skidder and hire a beller buncher to come in and lay out the hitches. More and more guys are going this route around here. For a one man show, I can't justify the ownership of a FB, but they are out there for hire. Guys using them around here seem to all say it costs $20-$25 per thousand at the end of the job. Seems cheap to me!
Husqvarna ~ TimberJack ~ Dodge Cummins

BargeMonkey

Quote from: mf40diesel on November 05, 2016, 07:36:44 AM
While It is not for everyone, I will second the going to sea route. I also went to Maine maritime, I know Bargemonkey doesn't care for us school kids. Haha. Been out almost 20 years. My work allows me the ability cut wood on the side for "fun," and not totally worry about making ends meet. It's not for everyone that's for sure. Being gone can be hard, but being home 6 months is pretty awesome too!
:D :D :D. I'm sitting in Bayridge turning circles enjoying my coffee, we all know the engineer loves to keep it stirred up.  :D :D :  I'm just a lowly hawsepiper with a 2/AE- CL/O and held a few grad hands on the ride down to Galveston. I try and avoid blending maritime / forestry on here anymore because it gets awkward explaining certain aspects of the industry, but I couldn't avoid my schoolboy comment. sorry.  ;)  You both are right in steering someone towards the academy route because the path from the bottom is to hard anymore, work 6 months and cut wood at home on your terms, it is the way to go. I've got 2 hitches left and I'm out, getting divorced was a blessing in disguise.  :D

There is a huge shortage in the workforce,I would finish your degree but a few new saws and a well used cable skidder will keep you fed, you haven't said if you've got a logging backround or if you've worked in the industry long enough to know if you really like it, having a "mentor" or someone to help you with wisdom is huge in this business. My son is 12, last time home he said "I want to cut wood with you and grandpa", as much as I liked hearing that I don't want the kid to struggle like I did getting going, working on a boat and supporting a family all at once. The FF is a good tool and I've gotten tons of great info and met alot of great people, biggest thing you always hear from guys who have made it is to grow slow and be diversified.  ;)  good luck.

repmma

Quote from: BargeMonkey on November 05, 2016, 09:19:46 AM
Quote from: mf40diesel on November 05, 2016, 07:36:44 AM
While It is not for everyone, I will second the going to sea route. I also went to Maine maritime, I know Bargemonkey doesn't care for us school kids. Haha. Been out almost 20 years. My work allows me the ability cut wood on the side for "fun," and not totally worry about making ends meet. It's not for everyone that's for sure. Being gone can be hard, but being home 6 months is pretty awesome too!
:D :D :D. I'm sitting in Bayridge turning circles enjoying my coffee, we all know the engineer loves to keep it stirred up.  :D :D :  I'm just a lowly hawsepiper with a 2/AE- CL/O and held a few grad hands on the ride down to Galveston. I try and avoid blending maritime / forestry on here anymore because it gets awkward explaining certain aspects of the industry, but I couldn't avoid my schoolboy comment. sorry.  ;)  You both are right in steering someone towards the academy route because the path from the bottom is to hard anymore, work 6 months and cut wood at home on your terms, it is the way to go. I've got 2 hitches left and I'm out, getting divorced was a blessing in disguise.  :D

Well I can't say that I didn't go to school with some questionable characters so I can't disagree completely!

I'm jealous, youve obviously done things right! 

As a side note AMO offers a 2 year program to get a 3rd engineers unlimited.  Basically free.  It's a gold mine of an opportunity for anyone with good mechanical sense, vs 4 years of debt.
Thomas 8020, Timberjack 225C, Ford 5030 with Norse 450 winch, stihl saws and 142 acres to manage.

Puffergas

If I had it to do over I would buy a cheap guitar and join a hard acid rock and roll band..........

Cheers...!
Jeff
Somewhere 20 miles south of Lake Erie.

GEHL 5624 skid steer, Trojan 114, Timberjack 225D, D&L SB1020 mill, Steiger Bearcat II

mf40diesel

I also tried the band route......  Stick with logging. Haha.
John Deere 5055e, mfwd. Farmi JL306 Winch. Timberjack 225 Skidder. Splitfire splitter & Stihl saws.

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