Sawing an oversized log - lessons learned

[WV Sawmiller]

   I touched on this briefly in Whatcha Sawing but feel it deserves more detail as I bet others have or will encounter this situation.

   My client had an oversized tulip polar log he wanted sawed. By oversized I mean it was bigger than the size limits my mill can handle. My mill is rated for up to a 32" diameter log with a blade pass (max board width) of 23" and this log was approximately 40-42 inches in diameter.

   First we split the log (Not too accurately if the truth be told) with my chainsaw. My MS441 with a 24" bar meant we had to cut from both sides and my cuts did not line up perfectly. The 2 halves were still too big for us to turn with a cant hook once the flat side was on the ground so I quartered the first half and these 2 quarters loaded and sawed easily. The tractor arrived and loaded the remaining half on the mill then left. I loaded the split log on the bed and it landed flat side down. My mill has a claw type turner and clamp. The round side up was still over 23" wide and I could not trim it down from that side. Neither the claw or the clamp would raise the log 90 degrees so the flat side was vertical but could not do so. We even tried chocking and added shims on top of the clamp for extra height. A chain type turner might have worked and the claw would have worked had I had the round side down. Using shims for extra height on the clamp was not safe and did not work. Finally we wrapped a chain around it and parbuckled it upright to a vertical position with a come-along hooked to my truck hitch (used the safety chain loops for better security). That worked and we got the log upright and I was able to clamp and saw it.

   The next log off this same tree was right at the upper size limits for my mill but the hydraulics on the mill worked perfectly loading, turning and clamping on the round log. Just had to Bibby off a little overlooked flare, knots, etc. so the blade guide passed through at max width. I had to rotate the log several times to trim it so the blade would pass through but this worked as designed.

    Lessons I learned from this included:

1. Next time if a log has to be split let the client do so or charge a lot more than I did this time as it took too much time, effort and material (Gas and chainsaw chain).

2. If loading a split log too large to turn with a cant hook make sure the flat side is up so the claw can grab and turn the log and the flat side will rest against the side dogs and/or have MHE available to turn or remove the log from the mill if necessary.

    If anyone else has had similar experiences sawing a large flat sided/split log stretching the limits of your mill and you know of any other techniques I overlooked I'd love to hear them.

[Delawhere Jack]

You're in the "what was I thinking" club now!  ;D The big ones are definitely a challenge....every time. I won't even consider milling logs over 32" diameter without some sort of support equipment on site -- tractor, bobcat, backhoe or such. The claw turner works great on smaller logs, under 30", but it will have you cussing up a storm when it gets caught under a huge cant for the 4th, 5th, 6th or 7th time in one day. Just had that fun today. Milled three poplar logs 35-40" dia.  You've just got to do what you can with whatever resources you have on hand.

[sandsawmill14]

i have split in the 100s of them by now i would guess and i charge $15 to split them and then just bdft price for sawing

 
this is a 48" poplar and i had to trim a little off of the top of butt end to get through the mill

the chain type turners are not any better you still have to put it on the mill with the round side down ;)
that is a 40" gum log in my profile pic  i use a 28" bar on my 441 if they are bigger than 36-38" and usually the loader will bust them open with only cutting from 1 side

[WV Sawmiller]

SS14,

   You look to be using the same saw I am. $15 is not enough to split one that big IMHO.

[sandsawmill14]

it works out to about $1 a minute but

 
these help ;D if i was having to saw both sides i would want more money

[Andries]

sandsawmill - that's pretty darn impressive support equipment!
Thinking that might bill out a tad higher, like maybe $2 per minute?
:D

[Andries]

I get asked to mill, not split, some big logs.

[Andries]

This is a 42 footer.

The 4/4 boards have a bit of droop to them.  ;D

[Andries]

This is about as wide as I can mill on my old LT30.

[Andries]

Best lesson learned: get a bit of chain, order up a Logrite "MegaHook" hook, and turn your logs like this:

It's a niche market for sure, but I do 75 to 100 logs like this per winter.

[sandsawmill14]

andries thats some pretty impressive logs
i just saw tie logs mainly so i never saw over 16' 
for the record those loaders are not mine but its in the deal that one of them is there for me to use t all times ;D
that hook is a good idea but both mills do a pretty good job turning them but if they were long as the ones you are sawing i am sure i would have to get a hook or something to turn them

[Andries]

From the top of the loader it looks like this,

Takes a bit of trial and error, but ya just gotta learn to 'finesse' the loader and load logs onto the mill GENTLY.
This is what a manual toe board looks like after you've been going too fast,

:(    :(

[sandsawmill14]

yep one of the loader guys dropped a 16' long 34" dia pine log on my b20 and almost turned it over and bent one of the backstops >:( now i do my own loader driving if having to lay it on the mill instead of using the log deck

[Andries]

andries thats some pretty impressive logs
i just saw tie logs mainly so i never saw over 16' 
for the record those loaders are not mine but its in the deal that one of them is there for me to use t all times ;D
that hook is a good idea but both mills do a pretty good job turning them but if they were long as the ones you are sawing i am sure i would have to get a hook or something to turn them

When I was starting out in this my monkey business, Jake Dean - Custom Sawyer was inspirational when he showed me his setup. He's a don't pith around kind of guy: "here's my advice: go big or go home!"  :D
I've been wanting to set up hydraulics like his operation has, but haven't been able to develop the market to justify the equipment.
Sandsaw: two hooks/chains to the forks on the loader, and there isn't a crooked, lumpy old pecker log that won't roll over for me!  8)

[Andries]

So, here's question, how would you guys split a big log with an off centre pith/heart?



eh ?

[VictorH]

I had to split a 41" by 12' red oak a couple weeks ago.  I've got a 460 with a 25" bar.  This was my first log that I've ever split but a friend of mine told me to be sure to order a ripping chain.  I did and I was surprised just how reasonably easy it went through it.  I snapped a chalk line to follow and I cut from the top down, flipped and repeated.  I have a couple pieces of square tube to slide over my back stops (21" tall)  that help with turning those halves and not get hung up.  I can not imagine doing this without ripping chain and something to move it with.  I have a forklift.

[EZ]

I bought a farm jack a few years back when my mill was manual. I bolted a cant hook on it and it works wonders. I still use it on some of those big logs that need split to roll them on the ground or if the hyd turner is having a hard time.

[WV Sawmiller]

   You guys hit real good points. I did not have any of the heavy equipment like your show - I had part time tractor with forks. Also I am just thinking of over diameter logs not over length logs at this point. The extra long logs have been discussed with all their problems in other threads too and I'm not ready to go there with big and long logs with my equipment yet.

   I used regular chain and was wondering if the ripping chain would have made that much difference. If I understand regular cross cut chain is ground at about a 25 degree tooth angle while ripping chain is ground at about 10 degree. Is this correct?

   I used a 24" bar with a brand new chain not a 28" bar and honestly think I might switch to the 20" bar if I ever do such again to give more power to the saw. I did not chalk a line but started with a pretty straight cut. We did not have heavy equipment to aid in the splitting process. I'd love to see a picture of the farm jack with the hook attachment for rolling big logs by hand. We tried wedges and opened the top about 4-5 inches but it would not completely separate. We rolled the log as far as we could by hand. The problem was we could only roll the log by hand about 60 degrees and my second cut missed the mark in the center taking more time and wasting wood. If we'd rolled 90 degrees to start we should have been able to finish the cut more accurately. (I have watched locals in Africa and in the Amazon making boards ripping logs by hand with no rip fence/guide with a big chainsaw and I have a much better appreciation for their skill now!).

    Another factor when loading and turning these big logs is center of balance. I did not have any side dog extensions so my dogs were only about 12" or 1/3 of the height of the log. If not careful it would have been easy to flip the half log all the way over the edge and off the mill, especially since I had the sawed/flat side on the opposite/clamp side instead of against the side dogs (I.e. The round ride was against the side not center of the mill.) I may have to make me a set of MM extensions to slip over the side dogs in future using pieces of heavy PVC pipe. I suspect the extensions would prevent the log from sitting squarely against the side but since it was rough chainsaw cut nothing was perfectly square like a partially milled log anyway. I.e. Every board was a flitch requiring edging on both sides anyway.

    For a little bit you could also flip and lay the mill on its side as there are no outriggers and it was pretty heavy loaded on one side. That is one reason we used a come-along attached to the truck to turn the log instead of just parbuckling the half with the truck - we had better control with the come-along and could inch the log upright then clamp it in place.

[sandsawmill14]

i use regular stihl chain on both the 24" and the 28" bars  if a log is 40" or less and doesnt have many knots i can saw down 1 side with the saw at 90* so i am getting full cut of the bar then cut all the way through the log on each end and it will split pretty easy with wedges i cut out of 4x6 about 12" long  if you cut all the way through on both ends and down the top there's not alot of wood left on a 40" log   gum can be an exception i guess its the spiral grain i always have a loader at this mill but when i am at one of the other 2 i dont have so i have to use the wedges

andries i split them the same as one with the heart centered right down the middle with no regard for the heart

[fishfighter]

I learn to just not saw them big suckers. Way to much work. Then again, I saw just for myself. :D

[Kbeitz]

This is what I use to roll my big logs. Works like a charm.
It swings out of the way when I'm done.



 

[Dakota]

This thread is a pretty good advertisement for a swing mill.

[WV Sawmiller]

i use regular stihl chain on both the 24" and the 28" bars  if a log is 40" or less and doesnt have many knots i can saw down 1 side with the saw at 90* so i am getting full cut of the bar then cut all the way through the log on each end and it will split pretty easy with wedges i cut out of 4x6 about 12" long  if you cut all the way through on both ends and down the top there's not alot of wood left on a 40" log   gum can be an exception i guess its the spiral grain i always have a loader at this mill but when i am at one of the other 2 i dont have so i have to use the wedges

andries i split them the same as one with the heart centered right down the middle with no regard for the heart

SS14,

   This log was about 16'6" long, I sawed 90 degrees the full length with the 24" bar, I had sawed completely through on each end for the full 24" bar length and we fabbed and used some wooden wedges about 4" thick and they still would not completely separate the log. That remaining 12'6" with 12-14 inches of holding wood would not let it turn loose without cutting from the opposite side.

[scully]

I have had my share of huge diameter stuff on my 40 . My first mobile job was a freakishly huge dia. cherry , I split it and they used 2 small tractors to position it . I should have charged that guy double , not only for the job but because he was rude as heck .  Another one that comes to mind is a very large red oak  That one cost me a Hydrolic motor . And again I charged half of what I should have .  I guess the best ones were a couple large walnut jobs they went well .  Any more I ask what type of equipment they have ,and make it clear that there is an upcharge for oversize !

[EZ]

Pictures, I have a heck of a time putting pictures on here so maybe I can get my wife to put one on with the farm jack.
I split logs the way most of these guys do except I use 2x4 oak wedges cut 14 to 16 inches long. The 2x4 wedges seem to drive in alot easyer.

[Sixacresand]

I'm getting ready to put my mill next to a big oak log.  Without lifting support equipment, a big log has to be straight, no protruding knots and the mill loading arms must be able to pick it up.  I will use the hydraulic clamp to pull/parbuckle the log up on the loading arms.  If it will not pick it up, I will have shorten the log to reduce the weight.  Big logs require extra effort.  I should save all the big logs and rent an fork lift for that day.   

[sandsawmill14]

i use regular stihl chain on both the 24" and the 28" bars  if a log is 40" or less and doesnt have many knots i can saw down 1 side with the saw at 90* so i am getting full cut of the bar then cut all the way through the log on each end and it will split pretty easy with wedges i cut out of 4x6 about 12" long  if you cut all the way through on both ends and down the top there's not alot of wood left on a 40" log   gum can be an exception i guess its the spiral grain i always have a loader at this mill but when i am at one of the other 2 i dont have so i have to use the wedges

andries i split them the same as one with the heart centered right down the middle with no regard for the heart

SS14,

   This log was about 16'6" long, I sawed 90 degrees the full length with the 24" bar, I had sawed completely through on each end for the full 24" bar length and we fabbed and used some wooden wedges about 4" thick and they still would not completely separate the log. That remaining 12'6" with 12-14 inches of holding wood would not let it turn loose without cutting from the opposite side.

a 16' log would be really hard to split without the loaders  sawing both side would certainly be in order on that one

This thread is a pretty good advertisement for a swing mill.

but we will save alot of time and work when the logs get back under 30"

[Magicman]

I'm getting ready to put my mill next to a big oak log.  If it will not pick it up, I will have shorten the log to reduce the weight.

 
I also use the log clamp to help snuggle a big log toward the sawmill when loading.


 
Once it gets this far along the loader easily tips it over and onto the sawmill bed. 

[WV Sawmiller]

Lynn,

   I still have to try using the clamp to pull the log. I need to get a good nylon strap or big nylon rope as I don't want to use a chain on my polished clamp.

   You show a big round log. I'm not having problems with them as my hydraulics probably work better with them than a small one but imagine that same log or slightly bigger cut in half down the middle. The flat side down on a big half round log was the cause of my problems.

[Gearbox]

The circle mill that I run will reach 22 inch 50 inch saw . I learned that if a log is going to square at over 22 I start by burying the blade then turn 1/8 turn and make edger boards till I bury the blade . Now you have one flat side down keep making edger boards and turning until you can square off . I have sawed 48 inch white pine this way . Puts on quite a show and makes the Avery steamer strain .

[Sixacresand]

Lynn, Thanks for posting  those photos.  Its just like I did it this morning.

[WV Sawmiller]

Gearbox,

   When I saw a max diameter log for my mill (32") I shave off a thin slab and a narrow flitch or two till I reach a 23" width then turn the log 90 degrees and repeat again and again until I whittle the log down to 23" or less then I saw finished boards. I have not had to saw octagonal cuts yet but might have to in the future based on the log shape (I.e. How oval vs round is it, etc.).

    With my big split log once we were able to stand it up vertical it was about 22-24 inches wide at the center and 32-36 inches tall. If too tall to pass the blade through I could cut off one thin slice with the chainsaw. After that sawing through and through was easy.

[ncsawyer]

  Any more I ask what type of equipment they have ,and make it clear that there is an upcharge for oversize !

I don't care how valuable a customer's log is, its not worth tearing up my mill!  I have cut some monsters on my old LT-40 manual and have also cut some 36+ inch ones on my new hydraulic mill.  The largest on my old manual mill was an 18ft 36+ inch pine.  The customer's 416 cat backhoe would hardly pick it up.

Now when I cut logs larger than about 33 inches I automatically charge my hourly rate.  Those big ones can eat up some time!  If one needs to be split....that is up to the customer.  I just saw em!

[paul case]

The circle mill that I run will reach 22 inch 50 inch saw . I learned that if a log is going to square at over 22 I start by burying the blade then turn 1/8 turn and make edger boards till I bury the blade . Now you have one flat side down keep making edger boards and turning until you can square off . I have sawed 48 inch white pine this way . Puts on quite a show and makes the Avery steamer strain .

This method is more commonly known as''bibbying down a log''.

PC

[Carson-saws]

Fun stuff...there are, in my opinion, 3 different ways to deal with over sized logs.  The first is what most do...saw it in half with a chainsaw...argh...the second way...depending where you live and how often you may deal with it is....exploding wedges...but those in some places require not only a permit to use them but to purchase them as well....the third ways is....running a chainsaw down the middle ABOUT a third deep into the log...than pack some sawdust into that cut...than pack gun powder into that cut...than packing again with sawdust making sure to include a "fuse"...than...light the fuse...and run away....

[Chop Shop]

I love big logs.  I have a 3 footer on the mill right now!

[WV Sawmiller]

I love big logs.  I have a 3 footer on the mill right now!

Chop Shop,

   Can you update your profile to show us your equipment used and such? Is a 3' log within your mills normal sawing limits or is it oversized? If outside the design specs what tricks do you use to compensate?

   I love sawing large logs too but I define a large log as a good straight log not over 32" at the big end with no protruding knots or such because that is the upper end of my mills design specs.

[paul case]

I too have a unique way to deal with logs that are too large for my mill to handle well.

!. sell the log to another mill. This works great if you have a way to load them(6k forklift for me).

2. let them sit till they are almost no good anyway and then try to give them away for firewood.

3. Dont ever allow them on your gate.

4. Make your gate out of them.

Not all of these methods will work well in your area. consult your local forester ;D

On a more serious note, I have ripped a few with a chainsaw. A longer bar(36'') and learning a few tricks will help. The length of the saw bar needs to drag through the log at an angle of more than 90 degrees. That way the bar itself helps keep the cut straight. I have been able to cut several 36''+ logs this way and waste less than 2'' of wood.

From a production standpoint, it makes no sense to buy and deal with logs bigger than your mill can make good time cutting. My $.02 worth.

PC

[woodweasel]

I've done several that are bigger than my saw will cut. I cut by the hr. and explain to the customer this will be a lengthy ordeal. If they want it done I will do it if I have the time and need the money. I under sell it, explaining I don't think its feasible. If they still want it Ill do it. If I don't have the time, or don't feel like working that hard I simply say its to big.  ;D

  

 

[WV Sawmiller]

WW,

   If the log you show on the mill will allow the blade to pass over and trim it down until you can freely run the blade through the cant I consider it large but not oversized. The one I see you cutting with the chain saw looks like what I consider oversized.

   Do you have any special tricks to cut them or lessons learned other than to charge by the hour because of the extra time expected and required to cut it?

    So far one of the most likely changes I will incorporate into my sawing bag of tricks is use of the hook on a chain used with the clamp like MM shows. I'm thinking I could even partially parbuckle a split log using that technique along with some chocks should my log land flat side down again.

[Magicman]

 

 
I have had to use the log clamp, chain, and end tong to turn a few logs.  Be sure to raise the loader arms completely up because this method turns the log "backwards".


 
This much too big Pecan log was over 50" before being Bibbyed down to sawmill size.  :-\

[Chop Shop]

I love big logs.  I have a 3 footer on the mill right now!

Chop Shop,

   Can you update your profile to show us your equipment used and such? Is a 3' log within your mills normal sawing limits or is it oversized? If outside the design specs what tricks do you use to compensate?

   I love sawing large logs too but I define a large log as a good straight log not over 32" at the big end with no protruding knots or such because that is the upper end of my mills design specs.

I saw with a Mobile Dimension and a Lucasmill.

I can saw up to 5 diameter without issues.   I mill mostly WRC and Doug Fir.  Most of the fir is nice minimum taper and the cedar sometimes have pretty tapered butts.   But 2-4' is pretty common at my place.

I have a pile of 24 footers that are all about 3' diameter to saw next week.

I load/move with a bigger backhoe and a full size prentice loader, not a self loader.

[WDH]

I just say NO.  Won't do it. 

[MbfVA]

Swing blade mill to the rescue!  Ianab posted a photo yesterday of Lucas demoing their mill on top of a larger log that any shown in this thread.  Unique leveling stands used to be sure but swing blades are made for big stuff.