hydraulic issue....

so il logger · October 27, 2016, 09:57:21 PM

Well... The grapple functions have always been somewhat weak on my tj 450c. The rotation is fast one way and slow the other.

It doesn't have the squeezing power at the clamp that it should have either. And today it wouldn't raise the boom with a very large oak tree clamped. It is making a noise coming from the control valve whenever I use a grapple lever. Kind of like it is by passing fluid. Maybe the control is wore out?

The pump does whine some when getting worked hard, I figure iI will replace both the pump and control assembly. But the control valves are obsolete. Any one else have a similar problem?

Could the control be causing some if this or am I throwing money away by replacing it?

kiko · October 27, 2016, 10:23:42 PM

Your pump could have wear on it, but if the noise is coming from the valve and it affects the grapple and the boom I would suspect a faulty boom valve main relief. It could just be missing orings on the relief. I think sorting the control/main issue first would be the way to go before spending the money on the pump. If you get into it I will glad to get more detailed.

so il logger · October 27, 2016, 10:28:38 PM

This is the control assembly. I believe it to be a Cessna, however a local shop couldn't positively i.d. it.

My normal supplier told me it is NLA. Schaeffer's enterprises seem to think they have used ones. Kinda hate to pay $900 for something no better than what I currently have. All advice is appreciated, I know the pump is weak just from the whining sound. Just unsure on the control

so il logger · October 27, 2016, 10:30:26 PM

Thanks for chiming in. Where is this relief valve located?

kiko · October 27, 2016, 10:48:06 PM

The main relief is all the way to left in that picture, inline with where the control levers hook up. Just unscrew the relief it will come out as a unit and check the orings. Those Jacks are famous for developing suction leaks in the metal suction line sections and clamp joints. However, usually shows up when machine first start and there is noise and delay while the pump primes up. The return oil from that valve is directed the the hydraulic filter on the right hand side of engine compartment , then under the engine to serve as the suction oil for the steering pump mounted on engine. I may have a source on the relief, I will check tomorrow.

so il logger · October 27, 2016, 11:06:58 PM

Relief is out, the 2 o rings are intact. The inner one is hard as a rock though. This machine has never had a delay in functions after start up

so il logger · October 27, 2016, 11:14:57 PM

Cancel that, what I thought was an o ring is actually just a flare of the relief. So it just has one o ring.

so il logger · October 27, 2016, 11:29:43 PM

OK, sorry guys... I should slow down and pay attention :D

Inside of the valve body I found another o ring that is deterioted to the point of rubber hanging off of it. Am I onto something kiko?

I'm only out in the shed messing with this thing because if I don't find an obvious issue I'm driving 3 hours to Schaeffer's first thing in the morning. We are at a stand still..

kiko · October 27, 2016, 11:42:03 PM

Was that blown oring in the relief valve socket? My parts book is at the shop so,I can't look to see and can't remember as it has been many moons.

so il logger · October 27, 2016, 11:46:58 PM

Nozzle looking thing at the inner end of relief. There is an o ring and a flat o ring rubber thing... I'll get a pic

so il logger · October 27, 2016, 11:53:09 PM

so il logger · October 27, 2016, 11:58:52 PM

Am I correct in thinking that with this o ring damage that it would not pressure up to potential?

sandsawmill14 · October 28, 2016, 12:01:52 AM

my money would be on the pump from the symptoms you gave but its cheaper to do what you doing to be sure before you just buy a pump

had a backhoe do the same thing as your jack the hyd would sound like it was hammering when the relief valve went bad and different machine made a loud whining when you loaded the hyd system good luck with it

it hard to see in the pic but i dont see anything that would cause trouble with those orings but replace them and then you will know for sure

so il logger · October 28, 2016, 12:09:30 AM

This is a last minute last ditch type of repair.. :D

By tomorrow evening it will have a new pump and a different valve system... Salvage yard special :D

The o ring has flaked apart from removing the relief. If nothing else maybe I can take both the valve banks and make one good one.

kiko · October 28, 2016, 12:10:31 AM

Might not be all your problem but that is part of it. The oring always goes towards the oil with backing ring behind it. The steering blade valve on the dash has the same main relief, if it was back together you could swap those and see if the problem moves to the steering. With the bypass noise coming from boom and grapple functions it most likely is an issue with that main. Under those slotted plugs between the outlet ports is a load check valve but both would have to be bad seperatly, the main is common to all three spool sections.

kiko · October 28, 2016, 12:15:10 AM

Sometimes you just got to do it. Messing around with it could cost more money in lost production than the sum of the parts. Roll out about four and you might beat Andy there!

so il logger · October 28, 2016, 12:17:16 AM

:D :D

Andy was just texting me...

He said it sounds like you want me to work in the morning so I better get to bed :D

so il logger · October 28, 2016, 08:55:56 PM

Picked up the new pump and used valve assembly. Had to switch a couple fittings from the old assembly, noticed that this one I bought has a couple more pieces than the original.

Under the fittings for the clamp sqeeze/release bank are a couple brass pieces... Looks like maybe they are intended to restrict flow maybe to raise pressure?

After all the road construction and I came up on a bad wreck, didn't get it all installed today. Should I re seal this control before installing?

Again thank you for the help...

kiko · October 29, 2016, 12:19:41 AM

What is different about the new to you valve? Do you already have the seal kit?

so il logger · October 29, 2016, 12:23:11 AM

Under the hose fittings for the center bank, which is the clamp function there is brass looking pieces. Andy said to use them and he said my old one may not have them. I can go to the shed and get a pic

so il logger · October 29, 2016, 12:26:09 AM

I do not have a seal kit

kiko · October 29, 2016, 12:29:44 AM

I would assume he knows. Trying to make up a seal kit would almost be impossible. I would like to see what you are talking about.

so il logger · October 29, 2016, 12:35:28 AM

so il logger · October 29, 2016, 12:36:48 AM

By seals I meant just the outer spool seals. I have them on hand

sandsawmill14 · October 29, 2016, 12:44:15 AM

that does look like a flow restricter and i would use it if it was in there and try it if you dont like it just pull it out and try it again but i bet i will clamp fast enough with them

not sure if you are missing seals or not but i have never seen a valve that didnt use either square or round o-rings and the round will work in place of the square 90% of the time just use one a little thicker than the square one

kiko · October 29, 2016, 12:47:36 AM

Yes that would be a flow restricter. I have never seen those before, I would think they would be in the rotate section. Will they fit under the fitting on another section or is that section specially machined for them, if so it is possible the valve was disassembled at some point and the valves were not stacked in the correct order. By all means replace the seal you do have.

sandsawmill14 · October 29, 2016, 12:52:53 AM

as big as the hoses feeding that valve are it could be to preventing clamp from slamming most likely when opening but this is just a guess and my opinion

so il logger · October 29, 2016, 12:54:05 AM

My old valve didn't have any of them. Andy showed me where to put them. On this new valve one was already in place as the fitting was already in place.

I'm going to put it on the tractor as is and see what happens. I can easily replace the putter spool seals. I have 4 sided ones to go in if it leaks

kiko · October 29, 2016, 12:56:35 AM

I can't hurt to run them.

so il logger · October 29, 2016, 12:57:14 AM

All the fitting inlets are same... They would fit wherever...

so il logger · October 29, 2016, 12:59:35 AM

I'm already sick of hydro issues.... I like the tractor going back and forth...

Kiko, can I send you my old valve bank? Check it out and I will have a spare

kiko · October 29, 2016, 07:31:01 PM

I would feel honored. Will send info.

so il logger · November 07, 2016, 09:02:44 PM

Update, the control fixed the grapple rotation being slow one direction.

New pump cured the whine while working the functions, and strengthened the clamp squeezing power.

The main issue with the boom not raising under a heavy load turned out to be in a boom cylinder.

The head packing assembly had came loose, allowing fluid to bypass. On this tj it would exert great down pressure.... And minimal lifting power... While lowering the boom, it was putting the pressure against the head packing forcing it to make a better seal. So for future reference if anyone has a similar issue it won't hurt to check it out.

All it takes is the big nut to work loose. I measured the shaft to make sure it wasn't sstretching as well.

kiko · November 09, 2016, 11:05:27 PM

I am sure it is nice to have it back. Usually it is one of the three, pump , valve or cylinder. In this case it seems it was all three. Those 450c were the best skidder ever made, with exception of the C series cat. IMO of course.