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Hardwood log grades

Started by C_Miller, November 20, 2004, 06:16:39 PM

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C_Miller

So what are the hardwood log grades?  I see Numbers and letters   s p v in the trade papers.  which are better to buy to saw and sell?  Brian gave me some yield numbers in the "5/4 cherry" topic but are USFS grades different than industry grades? I'm trying to figure if its worth the effort to get into hardwoods with the wear and tear on equipment and I would have to buy hardwood logs the softwood I already have.  Just don't want to get into a pickle.
CJM

Brad_S.

CJM
You ask if it's worth the effort to get into hardwoods. I got out of softwood because I didn't feel they were worth the effort! So much work, so little markup. :-/
I don't think that hardwood is any more wear on equipment either. What is hard is to maintain an inventory of different hardwood species. It's twice as hard to maintain that plus a softwood species.
If you wanted to try hardwoods and wanted to try just one species, I would suggest white oak. You can cut fencing, trailer decking, hay wagon decking, stall boards, truck batter boards and stake material selling for 600-1000 per Mbdft, and separate out the FAS grade and sell that for more.
The grade to buy is based on what products you would produce. Utility lumber can be made with #2 or 3 logs, grade lumber would be #1's. The prime and veneer logs should go to the veneer mills.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

beenthere

I'll take a shot at trying to help shed some light on one small part of the subject.

"hardwood log grades" can be a lot of 'things'. Mostly, I believe, the industry grades (non-standard) are different from the USFS standard grades.

The USFS 'standard' log grades, that were probably developed back in the 30's, are good if you want to obtain sawn lumber yield volumes by species, by lumber grade for log grades 1, 2, and 3 (by scaling diameter classes). Apparently the Forest Service wanted to provide a system that could be used to determine volume yield and value to be expected from certain quality logs. Because the NHLA lumber grades have not changed significantly over the years, the values in the tables are still reasonable, IMO.

Sawmills, I suspect, buy logs using their own grading systems (probably because the USFS log grades are more difficult to apply and to learn). The USFS grades are based on the hardwood lumber grades, in that the grading faces are permitted clear lengths between defect indicators that are similar to the hardwood lumber grades (NHLA).

If you want to have a pretty good idea what a log or bunch of logs will yield, such that a value can be determined or the sawing process can be evaluated, the USFS standard log grades can be applied. If you are selling logs, you will need to know the grades the buyer is using, possibly something like 3 clear faces being a No.1 log, 2 clear faces being a No.2 log, etc. (this is a simplification, as other factors such as scaling diameter, soundness, straightness, etc. likely enter in).

For the published hardwood log grades, see

http://www.treesearch.fs.fed.us/pubs/viewpub.jsp?index=4720
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Ron Wenrich

I don't know of anyone who uses the USFS grades for sawlogs.  One problem is that they don't take into account for higher end logs, such as veneer.  I used them at one mill that I set up and I had to adjust for higher quality logs to be able to buy log run from the woods.

You can also use them for grading standing timber and get an idea how much the lumber would be worth from the tree.  Our tree value calculator is based on that.  But, it doesn't account for veneer value either.

A lot depends on your markets.  Are you planning to address markets other than a local construction market?  Are there suitable logs available in your area?  How much can you spend?

The simple formula for log prices is log value = lumber value less production costs.  If you're running a small mill, then your production costs will be higher than the high production mills in your area.  In order to compete for logs, you will have to have a higher lumber value, ie better markets or better marketing.  That means you need niche markets.

Put that equation another way profit = lumber value less log value less production costs.  You can use that to determine if you can make more money sawing softwoods vs hardwoods.  
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Brian_Bailey

I don't know of anyone in my area that uses the USFS log grades either. But, I only deal with a couple of loggers. The reason I gave you those yield #'s was because I knew the USFS had done a study on yields of their log grades for different species.

The one logger that I buy most of my logs from is affliated with Global Timber and they ship logs all around the world. He told me one time that he had 15 different grades for cherry logs.

I deal in the niche markets and have found that buying the best grade saw log is money well spent for me. Most of my customers want better that FAS, so there is no reason for me to waste my time and money on the lower grade logs.
The exception to this are the junk logs that have no commercial value, such as crotches and short logs with extreme sweep in them. I find these to be rather profitable for me to obtain.

To stay out of the pickle jar make sure you have a profitable market for your product.

WMLT40HDG35, Nyle L-150 DH Kiln, now all I need is some logs and someone to do the work :)

Jeff

I would like to comment on the difference in wear and tear on equipment based on hard versus soft.  I beleive that is a very valid statement in that regard.

We run two mills. The mill I run saws primarily Aspen and soft maple. Probably about 80%. The other 20% is mixed hardwoods, primarily red oak.

The west mill runs 80% dense hardwoods (red white oak, beech, hard maple, hickories) and maybe 20% soft maple.

Both mills are cmc 3 headblock mills with Morbark debarkers at the lead and Morbark chippers at the tail to take care of slabs.

I can tell you for a fact that the the west mill takes a pounding. Breakdowns through out the equipment occur at a rate of at least 3 or 4 to 1 compared to the mill I run.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Buzz-sawyer

Not to give ya the big head, but is any of that opperator care and experience?
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Jeff

Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Ron Wenrich

Differences between hard and softwoods also include production time.  That affects production costs.  I saw mainly dense hardwoods (60-70%) with the balance in tulip poplar and conifer.  My softwood production is much higher, even though the product line is essentially the same.

Wear and tear includes a lot more sharpenings for the denser stock.  Logs are a lot heavier and that pounds on any mill.  

As for down time, I usually can see a problem before it happens and get it fixed.  That includes hearing something that is out of place.  If I tell the mechanic I have  problem developing, he knows to check it out ahead of time.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Brad_S.

OK, I'm here to defend my statement. :D
I can see on a production line where logs are slamming through, debarkers spinning logs like tops, chippers chewing slabs to shreds, yeah, that would be hard. But on these mills most of us own, except for the added weight which can indeed be hard, I think the extra wear and tear is minimial (not nonexistant, but minimal). I also find I change blades more sawing softwood than hard, hard seems more forgiving of a dulling blade. I will concede sawing softwoods is faster, in part because I usually saw it through and through or to larger dimensions, whereas most hardwood I do is grade sawn.
How about addressing the question of whether everyone feels it is worth sawing hardwood in addition to his usual softwoods. Am I the only one who feels he may experience a better profit margine by adding hardwoods? ???
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

Ron Wenrich

That depends.  If there isn't a market for hardwoods, then there wouldn't be any improvement.  Or if logs are too expensive, there wouldn't be any improvement.  You really have to know your costs and be able to anticipate your market.

If your sawing hardwoods for the pallet market, your return isn't going to be too much, and would most likely come in at a loss.  Add ties to the mix, and your profits will increase.

When we saw white pine, we pull the clears for about $1/bf.  We then pull 1x 6 for T&G paneling and 2 x 8 for T&G flooring or half round cabin siding.  The hearts usually go into a 6 x 8 cabing log or into larger beams for post and beam.

Our log costs are really pretty low for white pine - less than $200/Mbf.  On the other end, we're probably getting around $600/Mbf and our sawing costs are $100/Mbf.  So we're making $300/Mbf in pine.  We will produce a lot more pine in a day than oak.

On oak, our log costs are closer to $500/Mbf.  Our cants only sell at $360/Mbf and ties are at $500/Mbf.  The lumber may average around $900/Mbf.  Sawing costs are close to $150/Mbf.  It gets a lot closer with the oak, but we have more market opportunities with oak.  We also have more oak stumpage in our area than pine.

So, each situation is different.  Pros and cons on both sides that have to be weighed.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Frickman

I have a book here put out by the USFS detailing their log grades. I have never seen anyone use these grades, even government foresters. Most log buyers have developed their own grades and specs over time to suit their needs. Suprisingly, most of the buyers in my area have very similar grades and prices, with some slight variations between them based on their markets. They are so similar because no matter how you saw it there is only so much clear lumber in any particular log. Mostly they are based on length, diameter, clear faces or half-length faces, and color of wood, gum, mineral, etc. I too, have seen close to a dozen grades for cherry, red oak, and hard maple. They mostly differentiate the high-grade saw and veneer logs. The lower grades are pretty simple.

My mill was built and setup for hardwoods, as about 99% of our local timber is hardwood, so I don't know a whole lot about the difference in wear and tear on equipment between hardwood and softwood. I have sawn pine a few times though, and do not relish the thought of doing it again. The difference in hardness between the knots and the wood around them caused my saw to run out of line unless fed extremely slow. That created fine sawdust which led to other problems. I'll leave the softwood to you other folks who know how to saw it. I'll stick with oak and poplar.

The most profitable logs for me to saw are number 2 grade and some nicer number 3 grade. My area is home to a number of high-production grade sawmills with more capacity than our local timber supply can support. Thus they are always in the market for nice sawlogs, mostly number 1, and many times I make more money by selling the log than converting it to lumber. The veneer logs of course go to veneer buyers. The number 3 logs and lower utilty and local use logs are hard to make a decent profit on. No matter how you saw them they are mostly only low-grade lumber, which is a low-margin item. We will saw them when we are short of logs and need the work or when we have a special, higher value order, but mostly we sell them to local pallet shops that run their own scragg mills. Once again, we make more by selling the log than the lumber in it.

The number 2 logs are a real profit center for us. Most times the large mills won't pay a decent price for them, as there might only be two or three grade boards in them. We saw these boards out and leave the rest of the log in cants. The margin between the selling price of a grade board and the cost of the log is wide enough that we make a nice profit on middle or slightly lower grade sawlogs.

Every mill, and the area they are in and markets they serve are different, so you have to do what's best for you. I'll throw all the above parameters out the window if a customer is willing to pay for a special order. I feel that the "custom" at the beginning of "customer" is there for a reason, you produce a product or service just for them.
If you're not broke down once in a while, you're not working hard enough

I'm not a hillbilly. I'm an "Appalachian American"

Retired  Conventional hand-felling logging operation with cable skidder and forwarder, Frick 01 handset sawmill

Pretend farmer when I have the time

C_Miller

Hi Guys Thanks,

     right now I'd be doing hardwoods as a fill in for when softwoods are slow.  I've been looking into concentration yards to sell to and buy from as I don't have my own supply of hardwoods.
    
     The big question being how to get the biggest bang for the buck when buying logs. I understand the higher grade logs yield higher grade lumber but where does the law of diminishing returns kick in?  

    If you all were to buy a truckload of logs and could call the grades  and species what would you order to make the most profit?

    I'm thinking wear and tear are cumulative so for the little I would be doing at this point it would not be a consideration.

    C
CJM

SwampDonkey

Here in Canada each mill certainly have their own specs for the purchased wood, but they all have the same grading system for lumber. I know buying and selling logs will be governed by each mills log grading system, but ultimately it's the grade on the lumber that counts isn't it? There are lumber standards nationally and between trading partners of course.

cheers
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ron Wenrich

The NHLA has rules, but they can made more stringent.  For example, mineral isn't supposed to be a defect, but some guys count it as either a defect or won't buy any lumber with it in.  

We also have several outfits that buy on the best side.  They are mainly casket and countertop companies.  They are an end user, and they don't care about the back, as long as its sound.  

Log prices are dependent on yield and production costs.  What cuts out the best, depends on your markets.

Right now, we're cutting misc hdwd into 2x3x12 and 2x3x14.  The price is $800/Mbf.  I can take a #3 log and make a pile of money on it.  I won't do as well on a #2 unless there is some decent grade, and it depends on the species.

I can also cut 7x9x23 switch ties for $750.  I can cut them out of low grade oak, that isn't really all that big.  
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

SwampDonkey

I've notice over the years that the log grades will change depending on how bad the mills want the wood. Historically, Irving has been one of the worst sawmills for jumping price and specs all over the charts so most private producers sent to Fraser Sawmill where we got Bangor scale, which gives higher yield in the scaling, vs New Brunswick Log rule. In recent years Irving hasn't been as bad although at times they fuss on the studwood. Combined, Irving sawmills probably have the largest milling capacity yet they receieved less than 10 % of the private woodlot owner's sawlogs.

Ron, if the graders at those sawmills are certified, wouldn't they have to adhere to the grading rules? How can there ever be any unity in a grading system? In Canada we have to abide by NHLA for export. We have the national Lumber Grades Authority in Canada. When I go to the local lumber yard, its all stamped for NLGA grade, anything outside of that the consumer doesn't know.

This site has grading rule books for sale

Canadian Wood Council
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

beenthere

Ron
When you say you can "take a #3 log...", what hardwood log grading system is applied that makes it a #3 log?  I am assuming it is your mills' log grade you are referring to here. Just curious.  :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Ron Wenrich

A buyer can put on any spec that he wants to.  I've seen specs that call for limited sap on cherry, although sap is not a defect in anything but red cedar.  I've also seen limited heart on some of the white woods.  When is a bud cluster a defect and when isn't it?  

Where the standard comes in is figuring the grade by the numbers.  The size of cut, number of units, etc.  The defect is a judgement call.  I've even seen guys who bought Selects, but they had to be 6" wide and 8' long - that's a F1F and usually is $10/Mbf more.  I've also seen a F1F and grade on Selects sold as F1F.

I scaled and graded logs for a number of years.  I've noticed that loggers look more at the volume then they do the grade.  If a guy got real tough on scaled volume, I'd get it back by dropping a log or two by the grade.  In the end, it all evens out, no matter what scale you use.  

#3 logs are usually the lowest grade log, no matter what the grading system.  Above #1, I've seen veneer, prime and select.  I've also seen a #1A and #2A.  
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

SwampDonkey

I guess where talking logs vs lumber, different in many respects.

I truely understand that buyers can put their own spec on the logs. But, I don't care for the spec to keep changing in one year. Although it doesn't happen that often these days, and usually more often at new start-up mills until they realize the recovery from the logs their buying under their specs. Sometimes it's even driven by supply of logs as well.

Lumber grades though, must be held to one standard otherwise there is chaos in the market. But, I think we all follow that.  Ask me what all the lumber grades are under NLGA and I couldn't tell ya because I'm not a grader or buyer. All I ever see is log grades and specs which vary by mill. The log issue is just like selling potatoes to a processor, each processor will treat you different.

cheers
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Frickman

Swampdonkey,
I think that what Ron was trying to explain is that the NHLA rules are just a basic framework we go by when grading lumber. It was originally created so everyone knew what everyone else was saying, we all can now speak the same language. I'm not sure which page it's on, but there is a line in the official NHLA rule book that says that any variation that the buyer and seller agree on takes precedence over the rules. The rules say that mineral and gum are defects, but I have customers who will not buy oak without mineral stain and cherry without gum.

Outside of concentration yards there are very few buyers out there now that grade strictly by the rulebook. Most have added specs to help them get lumber in that is better suited to their needs. Many times we sort for length, width, sap, and color. Of course, the customer has to pay more per board foot for the lumber, but it ends up costing them less in the long run.

Hope this helps.
If you're not broke down once in a while, you're not working hard enough

I'm not a hillbilly. I'm an "Appalachian American"

Retired  Conventional hand-felling logging operation with cable skidder and forwarder, Frick 01 handset sawmill

Pretend farmer when I have the time

SwampDonkey

Well I guess the difference as far as I can determine when grading lumber is that any mill sets its own grades, but if its stamped with a grade for the market it has to follow the grading authority rules. The website in Canada says they do random inspections at certified mills that stamp their lumber to insure the grading is right and the quality is fine. Talk about confusion, no wonder there are trade wars.  ::)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

beenthere

This thread is hard to follow.  :)
The thread title is "Hardwood log grades", but the discussion includes log grades, hardwood lumber grades, and it even seems like, softwood lumber grades (ie grade stamps).

Not sure its possible to sort it all out, but just would like to note that there are grades for each (logs and lumber, softwood and hardwood), as well as those 'descriptions' of quality agreeable between a buyer and a seller. Lots of room for confusion too.  :D :)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

SwampDonkey

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ron Wenrich

I don't see the confusion.  The quality of the lumber is determined by the quality of the log which is determined by the quality of the tree.  All are interrelated.  If you don't understand the end product, you'll have a tough time understanding the primary product and each step in between.

The end product determines the price of the primary products.  Log value = lumber value - production costs.  Tree value = log value - production costs.  Seems like lumber value is key.  

Lumber value varies from market to market.  IMO, knowing lumber grades is a must for any forester who is producing quality trees and not just fiber.  It is also a must for anyone putting a value on a tree, log, or a board.

For a number of years, a lot of guys have pushed that back to the stump.  But, with higher competition for stumpage and logs, they have had to sharpen their pencils and either bring their log prices into line or their production costs into line.  Those that don't fall by the wayside.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

beenthere

Ron
I'm not confused.  :D  It just 'appears' that way. Now, I'll keep typing and remove all doubt, one way or another.  ;D

I agree with what you said about knowing the lumber grades, be it the softwood lumber grades and/or the hardwood lumber grades.  Very helpful if one can 'visualize' the grade of lumber in the log (comes with experience) to be able to put a value on the log as well as recover the quality when sawing the log. One reason, I suspect, lumber inspectors can make pretty good sawyers if they also have the mechanical skills. Often the forester doesn't understand enough about the lumber grades and must rely on something like the standard log grades for hardoods (there are also USFS tree grades) and a few softwood log and tree grading systems to help. Of course, getting the buyer to apply the same grades to the logs from the trees is probably a myth, but the forester has a better shot at applying some value to his cruised timber.

I meant to be directing my 'confusion' remark to the thread, which seemed to be 'confused', not the members' who each seemed to know about what they were saying.  ;D
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

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