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Most efficient way to heat????

Started by York0044, October 25, 2016, 11:18:36 AM

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York0044

New to the forum and had a quick question. I am building a new house this spring and I am trying to figure out what I should use. I am trying to figure out what is going to save me money in the long run since we are probably going to live here for awhile. Its 35 acres of woods so getting wood is not an issue. I am currently thinking of doing a wood boiler to heat my house and barn then just putting a heat pump in to cool the house with. (couldnt justify geothermal for just cooling???) Our previous idea was to put a wood stove in the basement and one in the barn for heat but seems that a wood boiler would be a more efficient easier option?? Let me know if anyone has any ideas? Thanks in advance!

Duke Santos

Here in yuppieville USA the use of OWB's is being complained about and scrutinized more and more. I have a wood furnace and still had a neighbor call EPA on me ! So I would see what the local feel is as a starter, but my vote is for a wood furnace for the house, wood stove for the barn...

LittleJohn

PUT TUBING IN THE SLAB !!!

The only person I have ever heard complain about radiant, had a bad instillation or an installer unfamiliar with radiant applications.  It does require a little more hardware and setup on the front end, but no one ever complains about warm feet.

...plus they claim it is more energy efficient, but a BTU is a BTU, its just that its easier to pump water then push air

John Mc

The best thing you can do for efficiency is by putting the effort into getting your house well insulated and sealed. This can also affect the size of heating appliance you need. Houses which are built very tight also usually need some sort of forced ventilation system to keep acceptable air quality in the house. For this, look at getting a heat recovery ventilation system or an "energy recovery" ventilation system. It can make a big difference by using the outgoing warm air to preheat the incoming air before it gets distributed into your house.

You don't say where you are, which can have a big effect on what will work best for heating your home. This doesn't necessarily meet your desire to heat with wood, but for efficiency you just can't beat some of the newer generation of cold-climate heat pumps: they will produce heat down to an outside temperature of about -10˚F (though the efficiency suffers at those lower temps), and also air-condition your house in the summer. In very cold climates, you'll need some sort of supplemental heat (wood, fuel oil, propane/natural gas). I've seen some folks install an electric resistance heater along with their CCHP system. That resistance heat is only used on the couple of weeks of really cold weather they get each winter. Electric resistance heat can be rather expensive, but the CCHP is so efficient that it more than makes up for it the rest of the year.

I heat my home with a single woodstove (the mostly open floor plan makes this work well), with a propane boiler for backup (or when we get lazy or sick and don;t feel like loading the stove). If I were building my house today, I'd put in a good-quality CCHP and use the woodstove on the peak heat demand days, or whenever I had the time to feed it.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Qweaver

We have geothermal heat pump and  it seems flawless.  We also burn pellet stoves in an apartment and mancave that were built after the geo went in.  Total electric and our bill never tops $120. 
So Many Toys...So Little Time  WM LT28 , 15 trailers, Case 450 Dozer, John Deere 110 TLB, Peterson WPF 10",  AIM Grapple, Kubota 2501 :D

sprucebunny

You need to put your location on.

Another vote for tubing in the slab. Love my radiant heat. 6" slab a bonus.
MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

doctorb

First- decide what type of heat you think is best.  I'm all for radiant or hot water baseboard.  I don't like forced hot air because it's not hot.  Just my opinion.

Second - Decide whether your going to use more AC than heat.  Depends upon where you live.  If you have a long winter, I would stay away from geothermal, as it is forced hot air heat.  Great cheap AC though.  If you have a rather short winter, then the AC advantages of geothermal probably bring that back into consideration.

Third-  Whether you use radiant or HWBB, decide on your backup heat source.  If you use wood primarily, your going to need either electric or an oil/propane furnace as backup.

Fourth- think about hot water.  Are you going to need an electric hot water heater or will your primary heat source supply that as well - even in the summer when the furnace is off??

So there's a lot of things to juggle around in your head and it all depends upon you individual situation. Good Luck
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

gspren

  As others said we need your general location, and I would also want to know about your "barn". Around here barn usually means animals (livestock) on lower floor and hay/straw storage on upper floor so not ideal for a woodstove.
Stihl 041, 044 & 261, Kubota 400 RTV, Kubota BX 2670, Ferris Zero turn

John Mc

Quote from: doctorb on October 25, 2016, 06:30:46 PM
Second - Decide whether your going to use more AC than heat.  Depends upon where you live.  If you have a long winter, I would stay away from geothermal, as it is forced hot air heat.  Great cheap AC though.  If you have a rather short winter, then the AC advantages of geothermal probably bring that back into consideration.

It's been a long time since I looked at geothermal, but I thought you could get a water:water heat exchanger for them instead of a water:air exchanger. The former would work well with radiant heat.

Depending on how cold it gets in your area, a cold climate heat pump MAY be a better choice than geothermal. In very cold areas (i.e. significant number of days below 0˚F), I believe geothermal has an edge (since the groundwater source that is always 50˚+)
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Qweaver

Quote from: doctorb on October 25, 2016, 06:30:46 PM

Second - Decide whether your going to use more AC than heat.  Depends upon where you live.  If you have a long winter, I would stay away from geothermal, as it is forced hot air heat.  Great cheap AC though.  If you have a rather short winter, then the AC advantages of geothermal probably bring that back into consideration.
Whoops...I don't understand that negative on heating on forced hot air.  I'm getting a 27+ deg delta on the heat cycle.  There must be another reason for this being a bad thing.  Actually this AM the return air temp is 64 and the air coming out of the register is 98 and that is on stage 1.  It will go to stage 2 in 15 minutes and the delta will increase.  Perfect I think.
So Many Toys...So Little Time  WM LT28 , 15 trailers, Case 450 Dozer, John Deere 110 TLB, Peterson WPF 10",  AIM Grapple, Kubota 2501 :D

York0044

Im located in southeastern indiana, about 45 minutes west of cincinnati so usually winters arent horrible, maybe 2-3 months of 0-30 degree weather. I am doing a 2000 square foot house and 40x60x12 barn/garage for vehicles and toys so it will only need heat when I am out there toying around. I guess right now I am leaning towards either a decent heat pump for cooling in the summers or maybe geothermal if i can justify the cost and for heat I was going to do a wood stove in the basement that I could connect my blower into the ductwork obviously with some sort of backup from the unit. I was going to put another wood stove in the barn and just get a fire going when I am out there. The other option I was thinking of the wood boiler outside to heat the house and barn because they seem more effiecent but I wasnt sure which was a better way to go or if anyone has any other options. I guess I am pretty much fine spending whatever, I am just looking for the payback and cheap bills to where its going to pay for itself. Currently I am on an electric heat pump and we have had $450 dollar bills in the winter so thats what I am trying to stay away from. Thanks for all the input!

John Mc

 Cold climate heat pump would be perfect for that house. 15 years ago I would not have made that recommendation, but the technology has come a long way. You could probably get 100% of your feet from a good quality cold climate heat you could probably get 100% of your feet from a good quality cold climate  heat pump -  though I would have some type of backup heat source.  I tends to like the Mitsubishi units, but there are other good quality manufacturers out there.  The  installed cost is  significantly less than a geothermal system.

A cold climate heat pump is probably not a good solution for your shop.  I've not found any of them that  allow a set point below 50 or 55° F.  They also can take a while to get a room up to temperature If the heat has been completely off ( I believe geothermal also shares this long recovery time problem )

If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

doctorb

As I said about forced hot air, it's just my opinion.  I have found, even with humidifiers attached to the system, that the air is extremely dry.  I realize heat pumps have advanced quite a bit, I would just prefer to have a different environment.

I am sure that geothermal CAN do radiant heat, as you need a temperature significantly lower (120 degrees) that in HWBB (180 degrees).  So if you have an existing house without radiant heat, geothermal is most commonly used in a Forced Hot Air situation.  The cost of converting an existing home to geothermal radiant floor heat is probably pretty high.  Building a house from scratch would save significant $ if you plan radiant heat.  Remember radiant heat does not convert to cooling, so you will still need air ducts etc for the warmer months.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

47sawdust

How often does the power go out where you live?Reason I ask is that you don't want a system that is too complex.We seem to be gizmo crazy,when what is needed is a simple,practical,and effective approach.
Minimum 8''walls dense packed with cellulose,good windows and an attic filled with loose cellulose, the deeper the better.Center chimney with a stove or furnace in the basement and you will be cozy.A smaller stove or cook stove on the main floor is also a comfort.Radiant heat is nice but you need a circulator,out door furnace is nice but some neighborhoods are cranky about them and you can't stand next to them first thing in the morning and enjoy your coffee before the day begins.
Close attention to detail and energy conservation will save you money in the long run and give you comfort and pleasure.
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

mapleveneer

It all comes down to deciding what you really want and what is important to you.  Let me just describe my experience/setup and you can consider whatever bits and pieces make sense for you.  My house was built by my father in 1940.  Very minimal insulation, i have added some.  I have 60 acres of woodlot (Massachusetts) so supply isn't an issue.  For 70 years the house was heated by a gravity hot air furnace (designed for coal but burned wood and made creosote).  In 2012 we renovated the basement, gutting it completely, installing radiant floor heat in a new basement slab and under the existing first floor (wood).  We are now in our fourth winter and have no regrets about the floor heat decision.  The wood fired boiler is in the detached garage/barn with attached woodshed and underground piping to the house.  No standing outside in the snow/rain/wind feeding a boiler.  No chipping ice off the woodpile.  It is a very compact indoor gasifying boiler and a 400 gallon storage tank.  As for backup heat, we didn't have it for seventy years, so i opted to continue with tradition.  If we go away in the winter, the neighbor takes care of my boiler.  If he goes away, i take care of his (as i am this week). With the old hot air furnace, never had to worry about power failure.  I now have a Miller welder that has a 5kw generator output for aux power.  It also works great for fixing things that break in the woods.

I enjoy working in the woods and now generate more firewood than i can possibly use when i am cutting my high-grade hardwood logs.  You can pretty easily figure on a continuous firewood yield of a cord per acre per year from your woodland.   If you are just starting, cut out all the low-grade junk you can for firewood and grow some nice timber that can be harvested 30-50 years down the road.  Little junk trees only grow up to be big junk trees.  If you don't enjoy the labor involved in working the woods, invest in one of the heat pumps, but still find someone who wants your junk trees to get them cut.  Even if you have to give him the firewood free.

Backwoods

First, use passive solar, with good insulation. Passive solar means you get the broadside of your house facing south, with lots of windows there, and the north side with very few windows, and ideally, built into the side of a hill or something.

This lets the sun do most of the work.

Go absolutely bonkers with insulation.

Then get a heating system that you like, can afford, and will not need maintenance every few years, or new parts. I have a big fat wood stove in the basement and ductwork all over my house. I have a big hood over the stove (Like you have above your oven) with a fan. The fan sucks heat off the stove and blows it all over the house.

My house is 2,900 sq ft, two stories (three if you count the basement). It heats us completely, never a problem, even in the zero degree nights. I am in a zone 6Hardiness zone (if you are a gardener/forester) Probably similar to you. I figure the only parts I will need to replace are the fan (eventually it will burn out) and the stove itself (eventually I guess they burn out). Other than that its just wood.

williaty

Our house has a "geothermal" heat pump furnace/AC in it. Geothermal is in quotes because what we do here in the USA is NOT geothermal, it's a ground sourced heat pump. The marketing people just threw a fancy word on it to make it sell better. Speaking as someone who lives with the system, don't do it. The cost increase over more traditional heating/cooling methods is huge, as is the increase in repair costs compared to traditional methods. It's VERY VERY unlikely you'll actually make your money back over the life of the house, let alone actually turn a profit.

Your best money will be spent on getting a very tight house (aim for an ACH50 of less than 1) with mechanical ventilation through a HRV/ERV coupled with fairly good insulation. If your architect actually runs the math properly, there's more energy to be saved by tightening the air sealing from 10 ACH50 down to 1-2 ACH50 than there is by moving the insulation from R25-R30 up to R50 (which some crazy people are doing). It doesn't matter how thermally insulation your roof and walls are if you're just letting air leak through the house constantly.

Once you get a tight envelope with average insulation, your total heating/cooling demand will be very small. This frees you up to do things like mini-split heatpumps which actually are tremendously efficient and don't really cost that much compared to a traditional forced air furnace/AC. If you couple that with an inside wood stove (modern, high-efficiency thing like a Woodstock Ideal Steel or similar), you can meet your winter heating loads without having to oversize the heat pump compared to your summer cooling loads.

By that point, you'll be using so little energy to heat/cool, you can probably offset all of it with PV if you want to really go hell bent for leather.

jdonovan

the most efficient way to heat it is to use as little heat as possible. That starts first with air sealing, second insulation.

If the heated/cooled air can't move easily out of the home, then you can put a lot less energy into keeping it the temp you want. Once you get a well sealed/insulated building shell, the idea of cheap/expensive heat sources change quite a bit.

The new home I'm building, we have estimates of 7500 BTU/H for a 20 degree delta T in summer, for a 6000 sq-ft home. About double that in the winter, on a 30 degree day, which is an average winter day in Virginia.

At 15,000 BTU/h there would have been no point to a wood boiler, and almost no ability to us a wood stove for any length of time. So the basic HVAC system that my municipality required me to have even if I had a wood heating source handles all my needs, and won't cost that much to run.

The ROI for a $10,000-$20,000 boiler install would have been 30+ years, so the choice was easy on that appliance.

Holmes

I agree with the suggestions about insulation. The best way to heat your house is to do the best insulation job that can be done. Minimal heat loss equals minimal heating expense. 2 pound density spray foam insulation, R6.9 per inch, will seal the house up and cut heating expenses. You will be better off putting $12,000 into spray insulation than into a wood boiler. The boiler will fail in 10 years . The spray foam insulation will give you payback every single day of the year except the days that are the perfect temperature for You. alb density does not degrade that I know of. Mine was installed in 2003 and shows no signs of degrading even on the old stone foundation walls.
Think like a farmer.

John Mc

While I am a big fan of sealing and insulation, the idea that you should do the most insulation you can is a bit flawed. If the house is sealed properly, there is a point of diminishing returns with insulation. I spray-foamed my shop. The guy do ing the spraying gave me the following stats:

Quotethe r-value per inch of spray foam is 6.5 per inch; fiberglass and cellulose is around 3.5 per inch. Foam is a complete air seal so its a lot easier to heat.  But it's more about heat loss than r-value with spray foam. 
4" of foam stops 96% of heat loss;
5" stops 98% of heat loss
6" stops 98.5% of heat loss. 

His feeling was that anything after 4 to 5" of foam you are kind of throwing your money away (we had to do more than that to meet code, but code does not really take into account the difference between foam and fiberglass bats as far as overall heat loss is concerned). You're better off putting your money into a better heating system, passive solar design, thermal mass considerations (so you can make the best use of your heating system), or possibly solar PV (around here, electric rates are high enough that it makes a lot of sense)
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Gary_C

Quote from: John Mc on November 01, 2016, 08:43:41 AM


Quotethe r-value per inch of spray foam is 6.5 per inch; fiberglass and cellulose is around 3.5 per inch. Foam is a complete air seal so its a lot easier to heat.  But it's more about heat loss than r-value with spray foam. 
4" of foam stops 96% of heat loss;
5" stops 98% of heat loss
6" stops 98.5% of heat loss. 

His feeling was that anything after 4 to 5" of foam you are kind of throwing your money away (we had to do more than that to meet code, but code does not really take into account the difference between foam and fiberglass bats as far as overall heat loss is concerned). You're better off putting your money into a better heating system, passive solar design, thermal mass considerations (so you can make the best use of your heating system), or possibly solar PV (around here, electric rates are high enough that it makes a lot of sense)

Sorry but that claim makes no sense. R-value is a measure of resistance to heat transfer and is linear, ie if you double the resistance you will halve the heat transferred. There is no law of diminishing returns from more resistance.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

thecfarm

I go along with turning your house to get the sun. My other house was like that. That sun coming into the house works. The house that I had built now,we wanted the view. It faces the wrong way. Makes a bit diffeant,but we wanted it that way.
But our house stays much cooler in the summer months. I use to fight the sun in my other house and keep the shades down. Don't have to do that now. But have to use more fuel to keep the house warm.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

jdonovan

QuoteThere is no law of diminishing returns from more resistance.

their may be when finance enters the equation, but from a thermal perspective... 100% spot on

williaty

Quote from: Gary_C on November 01, 2016, 09:29:18 AMSorry but that claim makes no sense. R-value is a measure of resistance to heat transfer and is linear, ie if you double the resistance you will halve the heat transferred. There is no law of diminishing returns from more resistance.
No, he's actually right because what you care about is the energy that makes it through your structure via conduction and that DOES decrease on an exponential curve. As you continue to add insulation, there's less and less heat being transferred through the existing insulation left for any additional insulation to block. Think of it this way:

At R1, you are already blocking 50% of the energy moving through your structure via conduction. No matter how much more insulation you add, you can never again make as big of an improvement as you did just from getting to R1.

At R10, you are already blocking 90% of the energy moving through your structure via conduction. No matter how much more insulation you add, you can't achieve even a 10% improvement on that.

The graph looks something like this:


You get big reductions in total heat flow at low R-values but, as you increase the insulation, you have to start adding more and more insulation to get smaller and smaller improvements in energy retention. That's the very definition of diminishing returns.


This is why air sealing is a bigger issue than insulation performance. Once you hit code minimums for insulation R-value, you're already up in the range where you're spending bad money after good. The only way to truly reduce the amount of energy you're losing is to start worrying about things like air sealing and reducing your glazing fraction.

Gary_C

Quote from: williaty on November 01, 2016, 11:21:42 AM
At R1, you are already blocking 50% of the energy moving through your structure via conduction. No matter how much more insulation you add, you can never again make as big of an improvement as you did just from getting to R1.

At R10, you are already blocking 90% of the energy moving through your structure via conduction. No matter how much more insulation you add, you can't achieve even a 10% improvement on that.

The graph looks something like this:


You get big reductions in total heat flow at low R-values but, as you increase the insulation, you have to start adding more and more insulation to get smaller and smaller improvements in energy retention. That's the very definition of diminishing returns.

That's faulty thinking and the data points on that graph are faulty. Show me how the values on that graph are determined.

An R value of 1 does not by definition decrease the heat flow by a percentage and especially not by a fixed 50 %. Every unit of resistance to heat flow acts the same in a given situation. It's the same as the flow of water in a pipe. Every unit of resistance contributes equally to the total resistance. It's a totally linear relationship and your chart is not linear.

Now as jdonovan properly pointed out, there is an economic point of diminishing returns for your bucks, but not diminishing R-values as you add units of insulation.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

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