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353Detroit slobering out exhast

Started by tantoy, October 22, 2016, 12:49:06 PM

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tantoy

This is a follow up on this post.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,87208.msg1336260.html#msg1336260
This is what it looks like, oil drooling out exhaust.  The little pipe coming off the block behind starter is open, engine warms up to 180 and maintains, new air filter. I have never tripped the air flapper since rebuilding engine.


 
I thought injectors but BUSHMACANIC suggested blower seal, he was right.


 


 
So blower is coming off to see how I messed up installing seals.
1968 Garrett 20 Skidder
1991 Ford 1920 Tractor/Loader
2000 Takeuchi tb135 Excavator
Stihl 020, 041 Super, 084
Husqvarna 61, 181SE, 357XP

bushmechanic

Well tantoy I'd say there are only two possibilities for that... seal busted during cover install or you pushed the wear sleeves down the shaft too far. Like I said I had to develop my own method of installing those little buggers. Anyway I'm glad you found the issue too bad you had to mess up that nice paint job!

swampbuggy

Be careful when you pull it apart. There are shims behind the bearings that determine the vane clearance. Also look and the spring packs for the drive shaft. Its a shock absorber and they do get weak and break. It is also timed. Have fun! Dan
If it was easy, everyone would be doing it!

tantoy

Quote from: swampbuggy on October 22, 2016, 08:55:22 PM
Be careful when you pull it apart. There are shims behind the bearings that determine the vane clearance. Also look and the spring packs for the drive shaft. Its a shock absorber and they do get weak and break. It is also timed. Have fun! Dan
Yep had the blower apart when i rebuilt engine so I know about the shims behind drive gears to adjust vane clearance. The spring drives only apply to 4-53 and up .
1968 Garrett 20 Skidder
1991 Ford 1920 Tractor/Loader
2000 Takeuchi tb135 Excavator
Stihl 020, 041 Super, 084
Husqvarna 61, 181SE, 357XP

tantoy

Carefully dissembled blower last night. I was hoping to see a problem but to me every thing looked fine other than all the oil.  I was thinking maybe the oil return port on the capped, non drive end of the blower was plugged and the oil did not have a way back to crankcase, but that was not the problem.
So looking for ideas :)


 


 
The blower seals are much stiffer than a standard seal, I saw no tears or deformation though.


 


 
All 4 seals were riding on the collars right in the middle.


 


 
Does anyone see any obvious problems?
1968 Garrett 20 Skidder
1991 Ford 1920 Tractor/Loader
2000 Takeuchi tb135 Excavator
Stihl 020, 041 Super, 084
Husqvarna 61, 181SE, 357XP

coxy

it may not be the seals  maybe a broke oil ring or2-3 if a skirt broke off the sleeve or piston wood that do it jus a thought  you will find out as soon as you put it back together

treeslayer2003

but, how would oil get in the blower then coxy?
is there a bushing or bearing in the housing the lobe shafts ride in? could be wore and allowing enough movement to wobble in the seal?
just a stab in the dark

bushmechanic

The wear sleeves are not the issue as they are installed perfectly. I have seen blowers where the collars are pushed right down to where they hit the white metal of the rotor lobe, then the seal only hits the edge of the wear sleeve. The seals look good but really inspect them for cracks. Look for a wear sleeve split also as I have saw those crack during installation. No drain issues you say with the block? That sure is a strange problem with that engine tantoy. So I assume the air box was completely full of oil also. If you don't have a severe air inlet restriction which would cause the oil to be sucked in through the blower seals then your problem just may be internal to the engine.

tantoy

Thanks guys for taking the time to reply!
I do have concerns that it may be oil going past the oil rings. In fact I think I will pull exhaust manifold and see if one hole has more oil than another.
Tree slayer; I agree , can oil from the block, around the cylinders make it back to the blower?? Good question.
The lobes in the blower do not have excess play in the blower housing.
Bush; there was not standing oil in the block around cylinders or in the air intake flapper housing.
Air intake and filter are all good as I hooked up the shop vac to make sure unrestricted flow.
I will pull exhaust manifold and report back.
1968 Garrett 20 Skidder
1991 Ford 1920 Tractor/Loader
2000 Takeuchi tb135 Excavator
Stihl 020, 041 Super, 084
Husqvarna 61, 181SE, 357XP

bushmechanic

Good idea on the manifold to locate the troublesome cylinder. If all are the same then it must be a problem in the air box. Was there oil dripping out of the air box drain? You say there was no oil in the air box or no amount of oil? How many hours have you got on that engine since the rebuild? When you installed the wristpin retainers did you check them after for leaks? Maybe if one of the retainers is leaking it could spray oil into the air box from the piston cooling nozzle. If you haven't guessed I love a strange problem! I wish I was there with you now at that engine.   

treeslayer2003

i still say the oil can't go upstream in the incoming air.

tantoy

Quote from: treeslayer2003 on October 26, 2016, 10:41:49 PM
i still say the oil can't go upstream in the incoming air.
Hoping your right as that would mean my rings and cylinders are not the culprit.
1968 Garrett 20 Skidder
1991 Ford 1920 Tractor/Loader
2000 Takeuchi tb135 Excavator
Stihl 020, 041 Super, 084
Husqvarna 61, 181SE, 357XP

tantoy

Exhaust manifold removed.


 
#1


 
#2


 
#3


 
Number 2 seems to be "wetter" than # one and three.
Bought new gaskets and seals for blower and going to resemble.
1968 Garrett 20 Skidder
1991 Ford 1920 Tractor/Loader
2000 Takeuchi tb135 Excavator
Stihl 020, 041 Super, 084
Husqvarna 61, 181SE, 357XP

coxy

I don't think its the blower  I still think its internal     jmop but if the blower was bad wouldn't it be wet in all  not 2 1/2

tantoy

Quote from: coxy on November 05, 2016, 02:09:19 PM
I don't think its the blower  I still think its internal     jmop but if the blower was bad wouldn't it be wet in all  not 2 1/2

I agree,
1968 Garrett 20 Skidder
1991 Ford 1920 Tractor/Loader
2000 Takeuchi tb135 Excavator
Stihl 020, 041 Super, 084
Husqvarna 61, 181SE, 357XP

coxy

did you do the rebuild or some one else

Neilo

There was so much oil in the exhaust that it could have wet what you see at least in #3, maybe #1 because they look dry inside the head.

bushmechanic

Well seems like a problem with number two cylinder. Looks like excessive oil in that one for sure. If the blower was all the problem you would figure that number three would be soaked with oil the worst as it is the closest to the blower in the block.

Puffergas

I'm sure this isn't the problem but if I remember correctly you don't load the piston from the top because the oil rings get chipped/cracked by running over the intake ports... or something like that. Just tossing that out there.
Jeff
Somewhere 20 miles south of Lake Erie.

GEHL 5624 skid steer, Trojan 114, Timberjack 225D, D&L SB1020 mill, Steiger Bearcat II

tantoy

I rebuilt the engine myself and it was my first diesel engine rebuild. I did not use brand new liners as they seemed ok so that could very well be my problem.
Bush, when you assemble a blower, do you use some kind of gasket maker on the blower housing to the blower end plates? No where I read say to use any type of gasket or gasket maker .


 
1968 Garrett 20 Skidder
1991 Ford 1920 Tractor/Loader
2000 Takeuchi tb135 Excavator
Stihl 020, 041 Super, 084
Husqvarna 61, 181SE, 357XP

bushmechanic

There's no need for sealant on the blower center section to the end plates. I only use permatex #3 aviation gasket sealer on all gaskets when I do a Detroit diesel. I install the seals in the end plates then immerse the plates in boiling hot water for about two minutes, then remove from the water and install a couple of old collars into the seals. When I'm ready to install the rotors then I remove the collars and immediately put the rotor in the end plate. Had some pics took of one I did Friday night past but can't get them from my phone to this post... Grrrr !


treeslayer2003

maybe bushmechanic can help me out here......seems like there used to be an oil ring that could be installed from top. i know the last couple i have done came with a ring that almost barbed, ie cannot be installed from top with out breaking it. but it seems to me the old kits years ago had a oil ring more like a gas engine, flat. i could be remembering wrong.
tantoy i can tell you if you had the late oil rings installed from top, they are certainly broken.

ehp

I always put the pistons in from the bottom of the sleeve , I'm not brave enough to try that from above the sleeve :o

bushmechanic

As ehp said always load the piston into the bottom of the sleeve. Far as I know that is the way Detroit always installed them. Now in saying that I have seen the oil control rings that treeslayer2003 is mentioning. There are many different applications for the series 53 engines from skidder's to genset's to busses to marine and the list goes on. When you order parts they usually ask what the engine is in it so they can get the right type of ring set for it, the oil control rings are color coded, skidder's are usually violet and I have seen white among other colors.

treeslayer2003

bush it could be i was doing an emergency repair and got that type ring on purpose that time.......i can't remember its been 20 years or so. but your right, they are different color, this last one was kinda purple or violet as you say. no way they could go from top, i broke a couple going in from bottom. some were broke from shipping, i had to reorder so i got a full set of iol control rings.

tantoy

 smiley_huh
Thanks guys, I am going to think on that. I do have the tapered sleeve ring compressor, and I loaded the pistons in the liners before installing the liners into the block ??? Let me think on which  end I installed pistons.
Where does the broken ring parts end up? Out the exhaust probably?
1968 Garrett 20 Skidder
1991 Ford 1920 Tractor/Loader
2000 Takeuchi tb135 Excavator
Stihl 020, 041 Super, 084
Husqvarna 61, 181SE, 357XP

tantoy

Quote from: bushmechanic on November 07, 2016, 04:14:14 PM
There's no need for sealant on the blower center section to the end plates. I only use permatex #3 aviation gasket sealer on all gaskets when I do a Detroit diesel. I install the seals in the end plates then immerse the plates in boiling hot water for about two minutes, then remove from the water and install a couple of old collars into the seals. When I'm ready to install the rotors then I remove the collars and immediately put the rotor in the end plate. Had some pics took of one I did Friday night past but can't get them from my phone to this post... Grrrr !
Thanks bush, I have both end plates dangling by the wood stove to warm up everything before putting together, You must really believe that warming things up makes a difference?
1968 Garrett 20 Skidder
1991 Ford 1920 Tractor/Loader
2000 Takeuchi tb135 Excavator
Stihl 020, 041 Super, 084
Husqvarna 61, 181SE, 357XP

treeslayer2003

if the ring pieces are not very small they will stay on the piston but not control oil.
heatin aluminum is magic. warm up aluminum housing, freeze bearing, they slip together.

bushmechanic

I have done a lot of hydraulic repairs on cylinders in the woods with limited tools and certain kits have materials that are difficult to install. We found that putting the seals in hot water softened them enough to install without breaking them. The first time I encountered those seals was in a silver 6v-92 Detroit diesel and I just smacked it all together and then I had to redo the job because it was worse than when I started, broke the seals during installation.

tantoy

Well its back together and running, but still just as bad spitting oil.
So I left the blower intake/shutdown flapper off so I could view the blower lobes and seals. When I had blower apart I cleaned all the oil off  everything so its shiny aluminum.
I started engine and with a flashlight shining in the blower I could see no oil coming from around the seals.
Within 5 minutes of running I could start to see the blower lobes turning black with oil mist.
Conclusion Must be broken oil ring?
1968 Garrett 20 Skidder
1991 Ford 1920 Tractor/Loader
2000 Takeuchi tb135 Excavator
Stihl 020, 041 Super, 084
Husqvarna 61, 181SE, 357XP

bushmechanic

When you took off the blower and it was soaked with oil was there a lot of oil in the air box? If it was caused by the rings then there would be oil dripping out of the cylinder liner holes. In order to get that much oil it would almost have to be spraying on the rotors inside.

coxy

tantoy what was reason for the rebuild    did you have the block checked    would it do this if a piston was put in backwards

treeslayer2003

Quote from: coxy on November 16, 2016, 07:58:26 PM
tantoy what was reason for the rebuild    did you have the block checked    would it do this if a piston was put in backwards
i may be wrong, but i don't think there is a back or front to those. i contemplated a wrist pin plug.....doubt it. i can't fathom how that much oil gets in the blower with out it being the blower. i really want to know whats up on this one.

coxy

easy way to tell put a different blower on it if it still does it then you know its internal

tantoy

Quote from: coxy on November 17, 2016, 06:03:59 AM
easy way to tell put a different blower on it if it still does it then you know its internal
When I had the blower off last week, I was looking at my aluminum Gama goat detroit setting in the shed. It is a great runner with almost 0 oil leaks. I really considered removing the blower off it and trying it.
1968 Garrett 20 Skidder
1991 Ford 1920 Tractor/Loader
2000 Takeuchi tb135 Excavator
Stihl 020, 041 Super, 084
Husqvarna 61, 181SE, 357XP

tantoy

Quote from: coxy on November 16, 2016, 07:58:26 PM
tantoy what was reason for the rebuild    did you have the block checked    would it do this if a piston was put in backwards
Engine was full of water and seized. No block checking. Back yard rebuild by myself. No one to blame but me for improper assembly.
1968 Garrett 20 Skidder
1991 Ford 1920 Tractor/Loader
2000 Takeuchi tb135 Excavator
Stihl 020, 041 Super, 084
Husqvarna 61, 181SE, 357XP

coxy

did you check the end plates on the blower real good for cracks  if it was mine I would change the blower if it doesn't help then you know it something else

Logger RK

Is that a 353 Deitriot from a gama goat? If so I put one in my Hahn years ago. Actually I'm on my 2nd one,and looking for a 3rd ::)

tantoy

Quote from: logger RK on November 17, 2016, 08:23:12 PM
Is that a 353 Deitriot from a gama goat? If so I put one in my Hahn years ago. Actually I'm on my 2nd one,and looking for a 3rd ::)
Yes,
How did it hold up? Heard the aluminum block was not so good for equipment use?


 
1968 Garrett 20 Skidder
1991 Ford 1920 Tractor/Loader
2000 Takeuchi tb135 Excavator
Stihl 020, 041 Super, 084
Husqvarna 61, 181SE, 357XP

Logger RK

Like them very much. They have a larger capacity oil pump then a normal one I was told. I believe dual suction pipes even.

Logger RK

But my Hahn is pretty much stationary on the landing. It delimb's and cuts to length. So I guess I'm not sure how they'd hold up in a machine going through the woods. The oil pan isn't very deep,so that might have to be changed? But with dual suction maybe not?

kiko

Tantoy,  I think your problem is in the two hole. I believe holes one and three are only wet with oil in the port and not so much on the valves,  seems in the pictures that oil is oil that has drained back from what two is blowing up the pipe. I would expect loose wrist pin cap or those two glass like oil rings on the bottom of piston.  I assume those are on a 53. I never had any luck with those piston loader ring squeezer thing, I loaded the rest of the few I did from the bottom and kinda popped them in, on old timer showed how to do it.  Then loaded the liner piston rod in block as a unit.

coxy


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