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A Formal Hello/Best Way to Proceed Down the Slope?

Started by Glenn Ohman, October 18, 2016, 01:49:49 PM

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Glenn Ohman

Hi Everyone,

My name is Glenn and currently I am a college student at a small school in NE Illinois. My woodworking interest started in high school wood shop, building bass guitars. In between high school and college I have worked in a few woodshops, which in turn, honed my skills as a woodworker. Now I primarily build acoustic guitars. If the price is right, I build furniture on occasion for customers.

The sawmilling bug bit me last summer when I helped out a local NGO convert 22 red oak logs into lumber within a course of a 12 hour day.  The logs were I bi-product of a restoration thinning in a ravine they recently became the stewards of.  Put simply, it was a blast.

Since then I have been absorbing information on sawmilling, including visiting an outfit I wrote about in a paper that practices nature-based forestry – what a learning experience!

For me, I really want to get into sawmilling to better utilize trees that would otherwise be chipped, turned into firewood or be dumped in the nearest vacant lot. I can't tell you how many logs I have had to pass on in the last 6 months because I did not have the equipment to convert them into lumber. Around here, nobody makes things, let alone mills lumber – free logs are real easy to come by.

In addition, I see sawmilling and other value adding process as a way to fund restoration work. I can't stand the sorry shape most of our postage stamp size forests are in. The time is now for me to be the change I want to see.

As a woodworker, it will open up the doors to using commercially unavailable species and cuts. Quarter-sawn sugar maple, in particular, is something I want to use for my acoustic guitars.

Ultimately, I want to delve into sawmilling as soon as possible because I love it. I see it as a perfect blend of my love for using tools and the outdoors.

Thus far, I have been able to convert some short section of common buckthorn (an invasive shrub/small tree) into lumber using my existing tools, but I see the handwriting on the wall. I really need to start investing in serious equipment if I want to advance this budding interest much farther. 

If I had enough cash I would invest in a thin-kerf bandmill, but I don't. I could swing a used hobbyist grade bandmill, but I do not want to upgrade in the future – I only want tools I will never outgrow. Therefore, chain saw milling seems like the perfect place to start. I'll always need a good chain saw; when I do invest in a serious thin-kerf band mill it will not become obsolete, unlike a cheap bandmill.

After watching craigslist for a few months and reading up as much as I can on chain saw milling, I think that buying a new chain saw might pencil out better than a used one. A used Stihl is not much less than a new one on the local craigslist. My rule of thumb for simple old woodworking machines (jointers, band saws ect.) is to figure dumping $200 on supplies to dial them in 100%. Applying this rule to the used Stihl's on craigslist yields figure that is real close to being the price tag of a new one. Is this thinking wise or fool hardy?

In terms of a particular model, I am thinking of purchasing as Stihl MS-362 C-M. It is a compromise between what I can afford and functionality. While underpowered for large (20"+) logs, around here many trees that large are hollow. Plus large logs are going to push the limits I have on transporting them. I doubt a lot of people around here will be willing to let me mill them on their property. Again, is this a wise plan or a fool hardy one for a person who has more time than cash?

I have really enjoyed being a member of "The Forestry Forum" thus far. A big thank you for everyone making this site a wealth of knowledge.

Glenn


millwright

Welcome aboard. a 362 will be a little on the light side but will certainly do the job.

ChugiakTinkerer

Welcome Glenn!  I'm a newbie myself, but were I looking at a new vs. used Stihl I would check in with the guys in the Chainsaws forum.  Newer saws have to comply with stringent emissions requirements, so there may be more value in an older saw than you might otherwise expect.
Woodland Mills HM130

OffGrid973

Hi Glenn,

Welcome aboard, this is a great place to get started on your journey. I was a woodworker that quickly realized sawing my own lumber was the best option. Bought a chainsaw, bought the attachment to manually mill. Dutch elm came down in my front yard and gave up 2 hrs in.  Next week bought the Woodmizer LT10 and greatest idea of my life.

Let us know what you are working with land wise and what the plan is.  Even basic furniture or even slabs you can pay off a sawmill if you have the space to store it. Good luck!

Your Fellow Woodworker,
- Off Grid

Glenn Ohman

Log wise around in IL it is whatever comes down due to storms, disease, or progress. To illustrate, this summer I had the chance to take 15 logs that were primarily hickory, bur oak, white oak, and red oak that my school cut down to make way for a new building.

Ash trees are all but dead and make up about 30% of the urban canopy around here. Most are free for the taking.

Out in the panhandle of WV I have about 550 acres that I can utilize. As far as I know those woods have not been logged in a century.

In IL I have plenty of land (two acres) to stack lumber.

My plan is to start with a chainsaw mill. Volume will dictate when I jump to a bandmill.

Eventually it would be great to run a small sawmill outfit complete with a planning mill, ie. an slr, facer, planer, big band saw, and a moulder or three.

Glenn

bkaimwood

Welcome, Glenn! Cwimer973 hit the nail in the head. If you buy a csm, especially for your application, you likely will regret it fast. For not much more, you can have that entry level hobbiest thin kerf bandmill. Yes, it's not what you want in the long run, but WAY closer than a csm. I have a 362, and can say it is, at the least, borderline. IMO, underpowered. I use an 880, only when I have to, and only when logs are over 3 feet in diameter. An still despise it. Maybe your a strong young lad. But a csm will make you an old beat up lad like me fast. Start slow, but with a bandsaw...JMO
bk

thecfarm

You know,at 22 I did not have much. Now at 55 I have the things I need. Now if you live home with your parents,you can get the biggest and be set for life.  ;D
No big deal to start small.
By the way,what's the plan for all of the lumber?
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Glenn Ohman

Quote from: bkaimwood on October 18, 2016, 07:28:55 PMIf you buy a csm, especially for your application, you likely will regret it fast. For not much more, you can have that entry level hobbiest thin kerf bandmill.

Perhaps, but a thin-kerf band mill does not mitigate the need for a good chainsaw. In my eyes, I see a csm as a stop-gap. When it pencils out I'll buy a bandmill .

Quote from: thecfarm on October 18, 2016, 08:01:56 PM
what's the plan for all of the lumber?

Well, I really need a good workbench and so does a friend a mine. That will be the first of many projects I'll use my sawmilling capabilities for.

Glenn 

Glenn Ohman


Sixacresand

"Sometimes you can make more hay with less equipment if you just use your head."  Tom, Forestry Forum.  Tenth year with a LT40 Woodmizer,

DannyLand

Ive had my band mill for two years now but spent a year looking around at all the options out there.   I was focusing on the chainsaw mills for a long time thinking it would be the best way to start into it, looking at alaskan mills or ones mounted on carts that would roll down an extension ladder track with a handcrank to feed it.  I would be only using the materials for woodworking projects and therefor couldnt justify the cost of a band mill. There were some nice options out there that are easy to set up, appear to make good quality cuts and are pretty economical, not including the saw itself.  And then I watched a bunch of videos online with people using CSM Vs Band mills and quickly realized a CSM is only worth it for someone that has a lot of free time and no neighbors. Go rent a chainsaw for half a day, (if you dont own a basic one already) and try to rip an ash log down the length.  Dont worry about the quality of the cut, just see how much effort it takes, how long it takes and how loud it is.  Its perfect if youre just looking to cut a few slabs for a fireplace mantle or the occasional table top, but if youre planning on milling more than three logs with it in a 10 hour day, I would invest in a bandmill. Biggest question is, how much is your time worth?  I havent seen a single youtube video of someone making a full cut in real time with a CSM, it just takes too long.   
      My woodland HM126 cost about $3200 delivered to my shop with a ten pack of blades, and I made that back on the first job I used the saw for cutting black locust.  Its well worth it and has paid for itself several times over.  It makes great quality cuts, very easy to use and is very economical for what it provides.  Im still amazed at how well it works and do not regret buying it at all.  Im only cutting materials for my carpentry/furniture jobs and personal use but it has opened so many more doors for new customers.  Im not looking to sell any lumber but when people hear you have a mill, they will find you and start paying you to cut for them.  Save your sanity and really look at what your goal is with acquiring a mill.   Just to screw around and make a few boards, or Set yourself up with a little business making the custom woodworking from urban timber and selling some cutting services.  1000 BdFt in a day with a band mill or 1/3 of that with a CSM and losing a lot of material due to a thicker kerf?  Theres a lot less setup with a band mill too.   Roll the log onto it, clamp it in place and start cutting. 
     You said you only want to buy a BSM if its going to be your forever mill, but that would be like saying youre going to drive the same car forever.   I would look at it as you may have your first car from high school and trying to start a moving company out of it.   A Ford Festiva for example can hold some boxes with a mattress strapped to the roof and you can slowly get an apartment emptied out.   A Ford Ranger can hold a little more, easier to load and unload and can get the job done faster with less trips.  You can work with that until you make enough money to eventually buy a 20' box truck.  Dont waste your money on a CSM, invest in a band mill you can afford and make some money with it.  I honestly think the term hobby mill shouldnt apply to any band mill, even the harbor freight ones. That term should be reserved for chain saws seeing there is no possible way to make a living with one.   ;)
   
Woodland Mills HM126, Hudson debarker, Jonsered 2171, New Holland skid steer, 1955 International Harvester Dump 132

Glenn Ohman

Great comments everyone, keep it up.

As a college student, my time is not worth much to employers. Less than two figures per hour for sure. Making $7 or $8 tops after taxes has been my typical experience. Interesting places of employment understandably avoid college students like the plauge.

As with anything else I get myself into, I know that csm will be a lot more difficult/more time consuming than I think it is. My general rule of thumb is to double the amount of time I think I'll need for a project right of the bat. 

Right now, I would be fine with just puttering around.

Glenn


5quarter

Welcome to the jungle Glenn. That is a great way to utilize trees that would either be chipped or burned. I do the same thing. But don't limit yourself. Trees are a renewable resource. Trees grow, trees get cut down, more trees take their place. Kind of like a garden, but with a longer season.  ;)

CSMs have their place. breaking down big logs, sawing wide slabs, making beams, sawing in the woods etc...but making lumber is not in their wheelhouse. First couple weeks you'll have a blast. After a month or so, it will be enjoyable. Much beyond that and it becomes WORK.  arg-smiley smiley_whip

What is this leisure time of which you speak?
Blue Harbor Refinishing

flyboy16101

Wood-mizer Lt35, International 504 w/ loader, Hough HA Payloader, Stihl Ms290, Ms660, LogRite Cant Hook

Bill Ragosta

I agree with DannyLand, don't rule out a small hobby bandmill.  I'm presently looking at new and used from several manufacturers (I've seen Woodmizer, Simplicity and Hud-son so far and have also considered EZ Boardwalk Jr. and Woodland Mills by checking out their websites and YouTube videos) and I've found that many/most of the used units are bringing very good prices if they're in proper working order.  In fact, I've seen more than a few used units whose owners were asking exactly what you could purchase a new one for (no idea if they've had any luck finding a sucker....I mean a buyer).  Anyway, the point is, if and when you can buy one, keep in mind that you'll likely be able to sell it after a few years for as much or nearly as much as you have in it.

Now, all of that said, I'd also remind you that you're still young and in college and that almost all of us on this board have found ourselves in the same place.  If it takes you a few years to reach your dreams, then so be it.  I'm more than twice your age, and while I enjoy my job very much, if I had to do it all over again, I very well might get into forestry, logging or even cabinet making/furniture building.  As it is, I'm just looking at my first bandsaw mill and considering trying to teach myself joinery and furniture building when I can retire (hopefully sooner rather than later).  Good luck and welcome to the board.

Engineer

Glenn, some good advice has already been offered here, so I'll add my two cents as well.  I agree with the other guys that say to skip the CSM and go to a hobby mill.  There are several manufacturers who make an excellent entry-level bandmill, and the ease of use and production rate will far outstrip anything you could hope for with a CSM.  As far as I am concerned, a CSM is great when you have [1] a BIG saw and bar, and big logs to use it on; [2] no other way to get to the log and you have to carry the mill in; [3] you absolutely have no budget for a bandmill and no foreseeable way to make small payments on a loan for a bigger mill; [4] you don't care about the kerf losses; [5] you don't mind the noise or effort required to mill with a CSM.  I think a CSM is great to have as an accessory to a bandmill or other type of production mill.

As a young guy, I would consider the hobby bandmill, as a first step toward a long-term goal.  Buy, use for a few years, sell and upgrade.

The other possibility is to get yourself into a large bandmill right away, and treat it as a business expense.  If you're not buried in student loans, it might be worth it to pay a few hundred bucks a month to get into a hydraulic mill.  It could be an investment that will pay for itself and then some, and it really doesn't cost any more than buying a new pickup truck or nice car.

Glenn Ohman

Thanks for the advice, everyone.

Thankfully school is penciling out quite well, I'll be debt free when I finish my undergrad in about two years.

I like your hydraulic mill idea, engineer. Even if I made .25 an hour it would beat working at -- insert boring service job here.

Tentative plan:

1. Pick up a better chainsaw than my dad's wimpy homelight, like the 362 I mentioned up thread. I need a good chainsaw regardless what kind of think-kerf band mill I'll end up with.

2. Pick up an Alaska mill to scratch the sawmilling itch, for now.

3. As soon as possible buy a bandmill/sell the Alaska mill.

I'm okay with losing a few pennies in terms of resale value for the Alaska mill. 

Glenn



DannyLand

Is there a particular Alaskan mill you have in mind?    When I was doing my research on them there were a few that I liked more than others for some reason.   Simplicity is often best and will work just as good as some of the fancy expensive ones.   I saw a few videos online where guys had just drilled two holes in their bars and mounted long threaded rods to them.   They had a handful of wooden blocks with the holes drilled in them that were cut to various desired slab thicknesses with a single wide board on top to guide it down the cut.  Super simple, hard to screw up and worked great for the price of a couple of threaded rods and nuts. 
Woodland Mills HM126, Hudson debarker, Jonsered 2171, New Holland skid steer, 1955 International Harvester Dump 132

OneWithWood

Hi, Glenn.
If you are dead set on going the CSM route spend a bit more and get at least a MS661.  From experience I can say the odds are you will burn up the 362.  It is a nice saw for occasional falling and firewood work but will be hard pressed to stand up to the rigors of CSM.
I have a CSM that I power with an MS660 and there are times when I wish I had an 880.  I use my CSM to knock large logs over 32" diameter down to fit on my band mill.  You won't get much yield out of logs smaller that 16" so the 362 will be pulling a bar larger than it was designed for.  I would not attempt to mill a 16" log with less than a 24" bar.
The advice to get a small band mill and supplement it with the 362 is spot on.
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

Glenn Ohman

I'm really glad I consulted you guys before throwing money at anything, thanks again for the advice everyone.

Small band mill it is. Any brands/models you guys are fond of?

Glenn


Czech_Made

Quote from: Glenn Ohman on October 21, 2016, 01:07:26 PM
I'm really glad I consulted you guys before throwing money at anything, thanks again for the advice everyone.

Small band mill it is. Any brands/models you guys are fond of?

Glenn

Shameless plug:   ;D ;D

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,90578.msg1394410.html#msg1394410

but I dont deal with ever breaking band saws, cutting chain is robust, cheap and easy to sharpen.  Kerf is bigger than the bandsaw, but the resulting board is absolutely flat - no need to add much for planing.

flyboy16101

While you wont go wrong with any of the sponsors on the left side for band mills I personally like Woodmizer. I have never gotten service and customer support like that from any other company. My uncle got me started with his Lt 15 and he has sawed a lot of wood with it for all the more he has invested. Not sure about the lt 10 as I have never run one. But from what you have said so far I don't think you would want to go smaller than a Lt 15. Check out "Wallies Milling Thread" on here he started out with a LT 15 and you can see what he got his to do for production.
Wood-mizer Lt35, International 504 w/ loader, Hough HA Payloader, Stihl Ms290, Ms660, LogRite Cant Hook

DannyLand

Depends on your budget.  The Harbor freight sawmill has a list price of $1,900, doesnt say how large of a log it can cut but is assumed to be 26",  but is said to need upgrades out of the box to work well and from what research I did, finding spare parts can be difficult. Woodland HM126 can cut a 26" diameter log, has a list price of $2,800 and gets the job done within a few hours of opening the box.   The LT-15 can cut a 28" diameter log, has a list price of $7,000 and has some great features that are a big improvement over the 126, Im sure youre getting what you pay for with it but its a big nut to swallow up front. 
Woodland Mills HM126, Hudson debarker, Jonsered 2171, New Holland skid steer, 1955 International Harvester Dump 132

justallan1

Glenn,
Don't be scared of used mills, they all seem to hold their value pretty well. To do again if I were just starting out and had limited funds, I'd put an add on CL and wait until the right deal came by. Spend the gas money now getting a good look at what is out there and don't be afraid to walk away, your mill will eventually show up.
My first mill was a Hudson HFE-21 that I bought from a factory rep and I had to drive 5 hours in a snowstorm just to go LOOK at it. He wanted more than I wanted to give, but he wanted a bigger, better mill more. I showed him a roll of bills and made an offer that he was willing to take. That little mill paid for itself a couple times in a short while and I actually made money when I sold it. There are great deals out there.
Always remember, people don't sell stuff because they like it, they sell because they either need money or want something bigger and better.
Good luck.

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