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What to pay an edger/loader man?

Started by 4x4American, October 17, 2016, 08:07:45 PM

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4x4American

I have a friend coming up to work with me through the fall/winter possibly.  He's a really hard worker, smart, and very mechanically inclined.  There is nothing he can't fix.  He helped me tune my oil furnace and clean it last year, did some electrical wiring in my garage, he can rebuild an engine out of anything (from a big truck to a chainsaw), he rebuilt a Mack injector pump in the middle of a field, he swaps engines in his trucks seemingly for fun the amount he does it, he's always fixing tractor, can mig/tig/stick weld, fabricate, run equipment, he's someone I really respect.  He's lived and worked on a dairy farm since he was born.  He is honest too.  He's definitely qualified and he is the only person I would trust to run all of my equipment.  I would even trust him to take my sawmill out on the road to do some portable jobs if it came down to it.  He's also coming up with his portable welder to help me do some welding projects at the sawmill.


What my plan is, I'm going to have him run the edger and the loader.  I will be sawing logs, I'll pass him the boards over the sawmilll from my table, and he'll edge the flitches, stack the boards, and keep the sawmill fed with logs.
I would love to be able to pay him $20/hr, as he's definitely worth that, but it's just not in the cards right now.  The guy I bought my edger from said that he paid his offbearer based on production (piece rate, somehow).  I think that would be the safest bet.  He's very easy about getting paid.  When I broke my collar bone, he came up for 2 weeks and fixed my truck, did some welding, helped me at the sawmill, etc. and I just had him give me a number at the end of the two weeks and that's what I paid him, and he charged me next to nothing and wouldn't take any more.  He's coming to work because he wants to get away from the farm because things aren't going so great there and he needs a break from it pretty much.  He's also going to be living with me, commuting with me, and I'm sure I'll be feeding him too.  So that factors in to it too. 


So anyways, I was trying to think of how I could fairly compensate him, without going too far over my head with all my payments.  I know that my production is going to significantly increase, but I don't know how much, and how to figure it all that.  One thought I had, was to maybe pay him 8% of whatever I make on an order/load of lumber.


For a rough example, if we saw 8 packs of lumber, say it scales 7mbf, and averages $.90/bf, I would pay him $560. 
And even on smaller orders, I think it would be decent pay.  But do I base his pay on the net or gross?


Also, there's gonna be maintenance days, and days where we are going to be building a shelter for my edger, setting up new workflow things and experimenting with that, so I would think on those days I would have to pay him hourly because we're not making lumber, and I'm not going to make him work for free, even though he would just to help me out and get me going.  Maybe I'd pay $8-10/hr or something.  I really want this to work, and I know we're going to be getting alot done.  But he's also a friend who wants to help me get my biz off the ground and is doing this for kind of a getaway. 


So what do you think, does this make sense and sound fair, any other ideas are welcomed and greatly appreciated!


Boy, back in my day..

47sawdust

You have the potential for a very sticky situation.I don't have a solution but if you value your friendship you have to be honest and upfront with each other about money and expectations.I don't know what labor rates are in your area but I would be hard pressed to find help for less than $15.00 an hour here in Vermont.
Mick
1997 WM Lt30 1999 WM twin blade edger Kubota L3750 Tajfun winchGood Health Work is my hobby.

4x4American

Yea but I'm also providing transportation, room and board so that factors in to it.  Plus he is the pickiest eater you've ever met :D so it ain't easy to feed that guy!
Boy, back in my day..

Kipper

Pay him as a partner in a sense. I have a very good friend who I do almost the same thing with. My motto is if "I am making money so are you". I would establish a percentage of the NET profit and pay him that. If you two work very efficiently together you will both make good money per hour. It can be a tough situation but it just takes communication.
LT40HD, Cat Diesel
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thecfarm

I'm not a picky eater,  ::)  bread,meat and cheese and I'm happy.  ;D
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

4x4American

Quote from: Kipper on October 17, 2016, 09:31:02 PM
Pay him as a partner in a sense. I have a very good friend who I do almost the same thing with. My motto is if "I am making money so are you". I would establish a percentage of the NET profit and pay him that. If you two work very efficiently together you will both make good money per hour. It can be a tough situation but it just takes communication.


Thanks, I think this can work out nicely.  I like that, If I am making money, so are you.  That is kind of how I was looking at it, as a partnership. 




Quote from: thecfarm on October 17, 2016, 09:32:24 PM
I'm not a picky eater,  ::)  bread,meat and cheese and I'm happy.  ;D


I am not at all a picky eater either, I'll eat just about anything.
Boy, back in my day..

Peter Drouin

Flat rate A hot a cot and $300.00 a week. Maybe just 2.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Peter Drouin

A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

MikeZ

I agree with Peter on #6. Was in a 4 way pship once and that really sucked. It is your equip and facilities. You stay the boss. Work out a base pay as equalling room and board, then maybe some production % for extra insentive. I would want to keep him happy because this kind is a one a million. Just my 2c worth.
MikeZ  Homemade  Mill

4x4American

Quote from: Peter Drouin on October 17, 2016, 09:48:23 PM
Flat rate A hot a cot and $300.00 a week. Maybe just 2.


And there's another thought.  So by a hot a cot you mean one hot meal, a place to crash and $300, or maybe $200?  not sure I read that right.  I like that flat rate idea too, then we both know what the bills gonna be and he knows what hes getting and I know what I'm owing.  I like.  When I worked cutting trees for a logger, he started me out flat rate too.  $100/day, whether I worked 6 or 10 hours.  Plus he bought us egg sandwiches, coffee, a hot sub for lunch and provided the tools. 



Boy, back in my day..

MikeZ

MikeZ  Homemade  Mill

sandsawmill14

Quote from: Peter Drouin on October 17, 2016, 09:50:10 PM
NO PARTNERSHIP. ::)

x2   dadgum you, Charlie!

if you were working on the shares the logger gets 1/3 the sawmill gets a 1/3 and the land owner gets a 1/3  if your buying the logs you could give him 1/3 of the actual profit and you keep 2/3 to cover you labor but this will only work if you figure ACTUAL profit after everything including mill payment  :)
by the hour would be best and around here that would be about $10 per hour or roughly 1/2 the sawyers pay when everyone is by the hour :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

4x4American

Quote from: MikeZ on October 17, 2016, 10:04:14 PM
I agree with Peter on #6. Was in a 4 way pship once and that really sucked. It is your equip and facilities. You stay the boss. Work out a base pay as equalling room and board, then maybe some production % for extra insentive. I would want to keep him happy because this kind is a one a million. Just my 2c worth.


Yes for sure, he's one that I want to keep around.  And it's not set in stone, I just want to figure out where I can start him at and then go from there.  As soon as I can afford to pay him better I will.  I'm trying to get it all to click. 





Boy, back in my day..

paul case

I had a couple guys hired to work at my mill once. They weren't kin to me but they were father and son. They worked real well together and were pretty productive. Plus they liked the work. I bought lunch on Friday and paid them between $8 and $10 and hour. I lost my buyer for lumber and kinda had a month dry spell. I kept them on for a couple weeks but had to let them go(They were tired of building fence anyway). 2 weeks after letting them go things picked up and I had orders again, and my oldest son wanted to work at the mill so I didnt call them back.

I think in your situation, as long as he is reasonable as it sounds like he has been, figure it out between the 2 of you and stick with the agreement as long as it works.

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

Percy

Im kind of a fan of the piece work scenario......I did it with my crew way back in 05-09. I was paying them by the hour prior to the "switch" and based their rate($ per bdft) against what I was paying them hourly. It took a few days but suddenly there was much more co-operation and a realtive increase in production. It got to the point that my earnings increased substantially. And I didnt have to keep track of hours anymore which was a pain. Net result was, as said earlier in this thread, we all made good money....
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

ozarkgem

Piece work. 8-10 an hr working at a sawmill would not be much. The only cost your out is extra food and small amount for utilities. Flat rate could make him resentful very fast it you were really kicking butt and  putting out the lumber. An hourly rate for repairs when you are not milling is an idea also. 15.00 an hr for someone that talented is a bargain. But I don't know him and  he may have some bad habits. The thing with piece work is your  bf cost are fixed. If you saw 500 1500 bf for the day you have the same cost per bf. that is my .04 cents  (inflation)

I will use my mill as an example. Working alone I can saw about 1000bf a day with a helper I can do about 2000 bf a day If I paid him .08 a BF for the day he will make 160.00. If my spread was .30 a bf I would make an extra 300.00 for  the day, pay him 160.00 leaves me an extra 140.00 x 5 = 700.00 more for the week. Adjust the numbers to fit your operation.
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.

ellmoe

   I have been involved in a situation where the net after consumable costs, fuel, etc. was allocated as 1/3 ea. to the equipment, working owner, and helper. Percentages can be adjusted, obviously. This is easy to understand and "everybody" shares the risks and rewards.
Thirty plus years in the sawmill/millwork business. A sore back and arthritic fingers to prove it!

red

Honor the Fallen Thank the Living

DannyLand

   I pay my helper $15/hour, which in our area is about typical for motivated laborers, anything less and youre getting the losers and junkies that wont show up half the time, and when they do, they spend more time watching what youre doing rather than thinking ahead to what they should be doing next.  My guy isnt the most skilled worker but hes honest with the hours he works, taking into account the hours he was actually working and not just hanging around.  I also dont have him everyday, and he has a morning job for a local garbage company so hes not relying on me to pay the bills, just his beer money. It works out nicely for me to only have him when I need him, not be looking around for things to keep him busy without wasting my money.  A guy like yours is super hard to find around me so I would be trying to pay him as much as possible without making yourself broke.
     I would never do a partnership, someone always feels cheated in the end, no matter how good the math should work out.  Id pay him a flat rate with bonuses when big lumber loads get out due to his hard work. Thats where the idea of "if Im making more money, then youre making more money" comes in.  He'll need some incentive to keep at it and help build your business to run as efficiently as possible. He can also pick up on some of the smaller thinking that has to happen around the mill to give you more time to focus on the money making part of the business.  Ive learned its not how much money your worker can make you, its how much work they save you from doing yourself. If youre working a typical 40 hour week, he needs to be getting at least $10/hour otherwise it just doesnt make sense for him to keep working for you, especially a guy with his talents and abilities.  He has his own welder, great mechanical abilities, can fix all your equipment for you, fabricate, operate machines and does it with a smile?    :)  Does he have a brother looking for work?   ???
Woodland Mills HM126, Hudson debarker, Jonsered 2171, New Holland skid steer, 1955 International Harvester Dump 132

Sixacresand

4 by 4.  Looks like you got a good man.  Hope you and him can work something out.
"Sometimes you can make more hay with less equipment if you just use your head."  Tom, Forestry Forum.  Tenth year with a LT40 Woodmizer,

Engineer

Having been in a partnership that went sour, I'd only wish that on my worst enemy.   You say you're going to provide transportation, room and board?  That's worth a lot, so anything he makes will be money in the bank.  I'd say keep it just above minimum wage, maybe $10 an hour, and then give him bonuses if you guys can really crank out some big production.  Maybe set a goal for the week and give him an extra $50 or $75 for every 1000 bf you manage to exceed your goal.  If he's doing specialized work, such as welding or engine repairs, or something other than just grunt labor, maybe a higher rate is in order.  Just something you guys need to agree on.

JRWoodchuck

I wouldn't say it needs to be a partnership. If he isn't monetarily invested then it shouldn't be a partnership. But a percentage or by the piece so to speak. That way if you have a productive day he benefits but if you don't then your not going backwards. Sounds like he is valuable to you though. Iam sure you two can figure out what works for both of you.
Home built bandsaw mill still trying find the owners manual!

Bruno of NH

I pay $15.00 an hour to a good helper one that can work well and not wine about what I tell them to do.
Bruno
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

5quarter

If he's as good as you say, you can't afford him.  ;) :D

   Seriously, make it simple. Pay him a flat daily or weekly rate. It won't matter what you have him doing, just as long as you get an honest days work from him.

Lucky you, btw.  8)
What is this leisure time of which you speak?
Blue Harbor Refinishing

brianJ

A lot of good ideas here.   If you like him enough to have him live with you I doubt you need to have him on incentive pay.    You also know him well enough which pay scheme he would be most comfortable with.     Seeing how this is just to be temporary perhaps he just wants something simple like a set amount each week.    Since he is living with you he will have no bills to speak of....  no rent, no utilities, no insurance, no gas for commuting heck not even a food bill.    Personally Id pay him three or four hundred a week, work him hard but keep the hours down between 40 and 50 each week.

Sounds like he is trying to sort out some life decisions with this "Break" he is getting from the dairy farm and that more valuable than money to most people.  As for money with no bills he ought to accumulate several thousand dollars come spring which is a nice position for him to be in.     

This is going to be a big increase in expense for you not just his wage at say 300 a week but also workers comp and your share of payroll tax.   I'll leave that to you that you have big enough markets and big enough source of logs to afford this.

Rather I want to address an internal conundrum I think I see you struggling with.
This is a really great guy and you like him and want to help him and be fair and honorable to his talents and work ethic without putting yourself in a hole.    Thats why I pointed out there are several things he is getting rather than just the money.   So dont feel conflicted about not paying this guy what he is worth. 

Now come spring if he has worked out for you well or very well then do all you can to pay him more than he gets elsewhere.  You will have a few months to know if your business can handle a market wage and come out ahead.   

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