50/50 milling for lumber

[Crossroads]

I just got a call from a guy who has 34 acres with quite a bit of Doug for and maple. He wants to have some of it milled and wants to trade lumber for my service. So, do any of you do share milling? I've not priced fir recently, but would guess it's more than the $300/1000 I charge. What are your thoughts?

[caveman]

If you have a need for wood or you can sell it for enough to justify storing, advertising it, and spending time with folks shopping then it may be a good deal to saw on shares.  I have not sawn on shares previously but I did offer to saw some wood on shares today.

[Ianab]

Would you want to simply buy some of his logs if he offered to sell them?  If yes, then you can do a deal. He gives you $300 of logs, and you do $300 of sawing for him. Adjust the amount as needed.

No money need change hands, he gets some of his logs sawn, and you have a separate stack that are yours to do as you please.

It may be a 50/50 split, or not. That depends on the value of the logs. 

[carykong]

You would require some high production and eager buyers to make any money on a 50/50 split with fir.  If it was walnut or cherry,it becomes interesting.

[longtime lurker]

I'm with Ian. I'll contract saw. I'll buy logs. I'm happy to do a cash adjustment either way if necessary to get a zero balance.

What I wont do is saw a pile of logs and split the timber. Even if it is something valuable.

Every time I've ever done a split deal, and it doesnt matter what the split was - I always came away thinking I got the worst end of it. Saw a whack of logs, get a pile of boards and somehow or other I always got the worst of them in my pile... or I was sawing sizes I didnt want to suit the other guys pile and getting some of them anyway, or it was good log for him and bad log for me. Nope - never again.

There is nothing fairer then charging market rate to provide a service and paying market rate for a raw material. And the beauty of that is it mostly weighted so the sawmiller makes money either way, but they dont have to know that. If its a friend adjust the market rate on your sawing down, but never pay more for a log then you could buy it for up the road.

[ozarkgem]

If you need lumber then do it. If your production rate allows you to make money at 50/50 split then OK. If you are sawing for cash then find a buy that will pay you for your half at the end of the day and that is what you allow the log owner in trade. If you can only get 350m at the end of the day then that is what you allow him. You would get paid cash at the end of the job normally so that is how I would figure.

[Magicman]

Not for me since I am not in the lumber market.  I do not buy, sell, or saw on shares.

[WV Sawmiller]

X-roads,

   If you want and can use the logs/lumber tell the client to equally divide the pile of logs then you two will flip a coin to determine who will get which pile. You can be assured he will do his dead level best to equally divide the logs under these conditions since either one could be his.

[YellowHammer]

I would either buy the logs, or maybe trade my sawing cost for the logs, but I don't trade lumber on shares.  This gives me the option of sawing the logs the way I want, on my schedule, not using the customer's pattern, and also allows me to saw all the customer's logs and get it over with.  However, I only do it very rarely, and only for high value species, because it can very quickly end up being a pain.
 
I also usually saw on thirds for most species, because doing a cost analysis, most logs are not high grade and don't deserve high grade prices, and sawing on third value more closely matches the market price of the logs, so it is fair to both of us.   

[Florida boy]

The best way to me to  divide something 50/50 is to let him divide the logs. Then you pick which pile one you want or vise versa. If one pile is way better than the other the picker is coming out ahead. Keeps both party's pretty honest in my experience.

[Ox]

I think lanab hit it square on the head.  It is the most fair way to do this sort of thing.  One absolute service or product for another absolute service or product.  Not splitting a product after your service - this way is not fair to you.

[Crossroads]

Thank you for the ideas, I do need some lumber for a project,  it not the dimensions the guy is talking about.

[Chop Shop]

If you can use the fir, trade him. But trade LOGS, not lumber.

Saw him 1000bf of lumber for 1000bf of logs.    You should be able to saw over scale so you should end up with 10-30 percent more lumber than you traded for.  Then you can saw whatever the dimensions you need.


Like you said, you saw for 300/1000.  300/1000 is pretty reasonable for fir logs of decent size and quality if you were buying them.

Also are you too busy to trade? or got some extra winter time you could fill in with the trade?

Ask anyone here what kinda logs they can buy for 30 cent a bf??

[sawmilljoe]

I myself do a lot of 50/50 sawing. I have always come away happy . What I do is just total up the board foot and split with it I make sure that I cut what I want as I go this way you make sure you split the good and bad and everyone is a winner. I have a manual mill so this way I get the help for sawing my logs from the pile too.

[tnaz]

The best way to me to  divide something 50/50 is to let him divide the logs. Then you pick which pile one you want or vise versa. If one pile is way better than the other the picker is coming out ahead. Keeps both party's pretty honest in my experience.

X2

[Brad_bb]

Committing to a percentage up front can be a mistake.  50/50 on fir could be far too generous on your part.  If you haven't already agreed to a deal, a better way to structure it may be to separate out the logs you both agree you would get.  Then agree to a value of those logs by scaling them and determining a price.  Then he will get the equivalent hours of sawing from you.  If he wants more sawing, he's either got to put up more logs you agree to, or pay the difference.  With that kind of structure you will not get hurt, provided your hourly rate is one that works for you.

This assumes, the logs area already on the ground bucked and limbed and ready to mill. 
You must also consider, as you would in any milling job, if your hourly rate includes you having equipment to move logs and lumber or if you must provide an off bearer, or if your rate requires that the customer provide loading equipment or off bearer labor.  You must adjust your rate accordingly.

[Percy]

I've done lots of shares cutting for 50-50, but only after I've seen the logs and they pretty much have to be a valuable species. For me up here, it's usually WRC. A guy can try to get you to cut a pile of crappy logs and it's no skin off his teeth if the recovery is poor. I had one guy who couldn't decide which pile to take, he was so worried he wouldn't get the best one, eventually he paid me and kept the whole shebang. On one job years ago, I cut 26,000 bdft of WRC   on shares. Took me two weeks. I sold my 13000 for a buck a foot. That's 6500 a week before expenses. It can be great or it can suck.  Some folks are cool and others are so scared that you might make a buck cutting their logs that they end up shooting them selves in the foot. Being able to read people helps on jobs like this.

[swampbuggy]

 Here's the way I look at 50/50. I spend the money to get my mill to the guys property. I spend the money on fuel,blades,lube,upkeep,...ect. I get 50% of the boards? No way, I already have 25% more than the guy does into the boards. Its a NO brainer to me.

[hopm]

Here's the way I look at 50/50. I spend the money to get my mill to the guys property. I spend the money on fuel,blades,lube,upkeep,...ect. I get 50% of the boards? No way, I already have 25% more than the guy does into the boards. Its a NO brainer to me.

Certainly puts it in perspective....wellllllll said!!!

[Crossroads]

The different perspectives are interesting. I've not committed to anything at this point except to stop by next time I'm in the area to see what he has. At this point everything is still standing. I did tell him he needed to provide something to load the logs. We didn't talk about an off bearer, but he would definitely need to provide that labor as well. Sounds like he's also got some red cedar too, but they didn't sound very big.

[Brucer]

I personally don't saw on shares. Ever.

For one thing, I don't need the wood; I would never know what dimensions to saw unless I had a specific order lined up.

A second issue is the quality of the logs. Douglas-Fir is a valuable species, provided it's got no shake. If it has shake, then it's self-splitting firewood :D. The only way to tell for sure is to have the logs on the ground where you can inspect the ends.

Having said that, I can (a did) sell Douglas-Fir 1x for $0.90 per board foot, rough sawn, 7/8" thick. 1x6 and 1x8 were especially popular. Lumber yards were selling dressed SPF 1x for $1.05 per BF, so I had a price advantage, a quality advantage, and a "species advantage". All my side lumber got turned into 1x and I'd just stack, sticker, and air dry it.

Douglas-Fir timbers went for $1.68 per BF for 6x6, 8x8, and 8x10. Larger sizes were more. But I would only saw those to order because there was no way to predict what sizes people would want.

Under the right circumstances, there'd be a chance of making decent coin sawing high quality Douglas-Fir on shares.

[YellowHammer]

I once asked the owner of a big commercial mill down the road if they would saw on shares or barter and they looked at me like I was crazy.  The owner told me they only saw for money, as that's what pays the bills and employees' families, and the only money that was made of wood was a nickel and that wasn't worth a dime. :D :D  Anyway, I've never forgotten that, and tell the story to anyone who asks me to saw on shares. 

[Peter Drouin]

If a guy had 10 logs and wanted me to cut them on shares, that would be 8 logs for me and 2 for him.  ;D

[Seaman]

I too would only consider a two thirds share, and that in logs !

[dgdrls]

I'm with the others who have indicated they saw/work for $$, not tree's or lumber. 
I have looked at two of these situations locally, neither worked to where I was compensated enough to even be a wash.
One project I looked at has been pending so long the bugs are tearing up the wood.

Unless its a real winner like @Percey indicated
and you know it for sure, I wouldn't touch it

D