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The sawmiller's juggling act

Started by paul case, October 09, 2016, 09:02:13 AM

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Kbeitz

I don't seem to have a shortage of logs in my area. But this is all new to me
and I really have no idea on the value of buying logs. So a new guy is asking.
Is this load of 6 logs ( largest is 15") worth $70.00 ? All 10 ft. long.



 

Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

4x4American

Kbeitz how many bdft there?  Looks like all pine to me, with you picking it up I'd say they're prolly worth around $200/mbf or $0.20/bdft.  Are they marketable logs?  Meaning cut to the right length, over 10" diameter small end, properly trimmed, fresh cut, no rot/shake/holes, no hardware, etc.  Are they woods grown or yard trees, the list goes on.
Boy, back in my day..

paul case

If they were hardwood logs like I buy and they averaged 12'' sed then the load would be 240 bdft and I pay $.35 for that size so they would be worth $84 to me at my mill.  Pine ? I dunno.

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

Kbeitz

Quote from: 4x4American on November 18, 2016, 06:23:43 PM
Kbeitz how many bdft there?  Looks like all pine to me, with you picking it up I'd say they're prolly worth around $200/mbf or $0.20/bdft.  Are they marketable logs?  Meaning cut to the right length, over 10" diameter small end, properly trimmed, fresh cut, no rot/shake/holes, no hardware, etc.  Are they woods grown or yard trees, the list goes on.

This is the first load logs that I ever bought. I have been getting so many free logs.
I had no idea what to offer for the load. The seller said he would like $70.00 and
I wanted to be sure that he would keep me in mind when he got more for sell.
So I gave him what he was asking. All log is 10 feet long. I don't have a market
for them. All are white pine woods grown trees. Just getting my feet wet.
Gotta start somewhere. I think I got enough logs to keep me busy next summer.
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

Magicman

I was offered a sixteen foot 33" butt SYP log today for free.   Woods grown, just too large for the commercial sawmill so the logger left it.  I hesitated and still do not know if I will go and saw it because I do not have a need for the lumber.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

paul case

Quote from: Kbeitz on November 18, 2016, 06:35:45 PM
Quote from: 4x4American on November 18, 2016, 06:23:43 PM
Kbeitz how many bdft there?  Looks like all pine to me, with you picking it up I'd say they're prolly worth around $200/mbf or $0.20/bdft.  Are they marketable logs?  Meaning cut to the right length, over 10" diameter small end, properly trimmed, fresh cut, no rot/shake/holes, no hardware, etc.  Are they woods grown or yard trees, the list goes on.

This is the first load logs that I ever bought. I have been getting so many free logs.
I had no idea what to offer for the load. The seller said he would like $70.00 and
I wanted to be sure that he would keep me in mind when he got more for sell.
So I gave him what he was asking. All log is 10 feet long. I don't have a market
for them. All are white pine woods grown trees. Just getting my feet wet.
Gotta start somewhere. I think I got enough logs to keep me busy next summer.

I dont know If it is worth it unless you can saw and sell about 2x what you give for the logs.

We all have to start somewhere. Find out what scale local people to you use, buy one and play with it till you figure it out. In my case it is doyle. I had to find out that almost no one near me uses the scale stick by its instructions( from inside bark to inside bark), but rather they measure more than that on good logs and on crooked rough logs they go less.

It makes a big difference what you can saw out of them how valuable they may be to you. We have sawn a lot of less than an inch barn siding and sold it by the sqft and done real well. 4/4 grade lumber is a little bit tough to get as much overrun on the scale. It is all in what you can make of it. I think if you could make a 6x6 out of each of them and sell them for $30 each then your $70 is making you money? Good enough for me anyway.

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

paul case

A little update here.

Since 10-9 when I started this thread(when I was out of logs), I have bought about 62000 feet of logs at my mill. I cant quite figure I would be able to saw all that before it gets to turning bad, I had to get a game plan. After weighing the options and figuring how to make the most money with them, here is what I have been doing.

I decided that I can saw out the ties and grade lumber or pallet stringers and make the most consistent money. The ties get picked up so that is a plus and the stringers we make are the same thickness as 4/4 lumber so we will pull the fas and 1 com to sell for grade and make stringers out of the lower grades.

The ''grade'' logs out of the stuff coming in costs the most money and it pays the most money to sell. I pay $.50 for grade logs 16'' and up. I have a friend in the business that pays a little more and he will pay grade on smaller than 16'' butt logs. So I have been sending him all my larger, grade and some smaller butt logs. This way we are not pushed to cut those grade logs before they start to stain or degrade.  I have sent my friend about 34,000 ft of grade logs. Oh and he sends a picker truck to get them. A big +.

We may have more on hand than I think, but I have been sorting off the tie logs and there are about 250 tie logs on the lot and that will keep us busy for a while.

I am working on a better way to cut off pallet stringers that ill be way faster and not cost much. Also I have been looking at a portable circle saw. I think I may be able to buy it and use it some and sell it. I like doing that kind of stuff.

I certainly dont have to worry about having logs to saw til next year anyway!

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

Darrel

I've sawed about 10,000 bf of lumber, all of it custom sawing.  I've never bought a log, but have cut a few of my own for my own use. So as you can see, I'm just getting started. There's a lot of good info on this thread. Reading this has me doubting that I want to join the juggling circus.
1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

Peter Drouin

Paul Case, Do you make up a price sheet with the size and kind of logs your looking for.

Like Oak 8'6" with a 16" top 2 clear faces, .50 a BF, one CF .30 a BF
I'm looking into this to send out to some loggers I know , and concentration yards
set a price on what I want and what I will pay.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

4x4American

Peter,


I did that and handed them out to local loggers and concentration yards.  I have different grades of sawlogs and specs for each grades.  Most want me to match the local big sawmills prices to get their logs, so I have my price sheet similar to theirs so the loggers can compare.


For an example, a prime log is 16" 1 sm. defect 10' + or 15" 4cf 10'+
The other grades without spelling them out are:
Select
#1
#2
#3
Tie
Pallet
Cull


I have on it the min/max diameters I take, what lengths to cut, what scale I use, cull logs removed immediately or will be disposed of without recourse, hardware logs culled, straight through pricing available on certain species, spider heart, bark seam reduces grade, etc etc. 


So the grades are written out and explained on one side, and then there is a chart and it has the grades on one axis, species on the other and prices where they meet.  Then there's my address, phone number, hours, etc. 

Boy, back in my day..

paul case

I refuse to make a price sheet.

Well I have one but it is so small it is more of a price note.

All hardwood logs cut 8'8'' or 10'6'' hard core no shake or rot or other defect 12'' and up $.35 bdft
RO and WO 16''+ 3 or more clear sides and no other defect $.50bdft.

I dont want to get trapped with a whole bunch of stuff I cant use so I dont buy logs under 10'' and under 8'8''. Crooked and other defects get scaled back a couple notches each.

KISS method.
PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

Peter Drouin

A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

paul case

Well I am back at it.

Juggling like a clown.

We were a few gn loads of logs from sawing out with no orders and resawing some cants into stringers Wednesday when I got this tx....
It is happening again. We need to make 100 pallets for next week! I need 360 more cants from you by Monday.

That is a little unusual to hear but not out of the question, so we got started sawing and by the end of the day Thursday we had 180 (3x4-10') cants ready to go. Today we got started and made 110 before lunch then I had to go deliver the first load right after lunch. When I got back Scott lacks 27 cants to be finished and had 7 smallish logs to go. I said if you get them cut before quitting time, pack it up and go home. I think he will have a couple logs left.

We only have 5 other logs on the yard at all. However I got to cruise some timber yesterday and have a man to start logging it for me on Monday and I am supposed to have a gn load of logs coming Monday that I wasn't expecting.

I wish I could tell you all how to work this out, and I would , if I only knew.

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

red

Robbing Peter to pay Paul , just like everyone.
Honor the Fallen Thank the Living

Peter Drouin

I try to help all my customers where I can. For me when I get a call and they tell me when to have some lumber cut and ready to go. I tell them your emergency is not mine. And I tell them when I can have the lumber ready for them. If [My] time frame works, then good, if not, well then good luck and have a nice day.

Why doesn't the pallet guy get ahead on cants?
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

4x4American

Quote from: Peter Drouin on September 23, 2017, 06:04:38 AM


Why doesn't the pallet guy get ahead on cants?


Possibly because of stain/mold.  If they sit around dead stacked too long they glue themselves together and then when you finally get them broke apart theyre slippery lol.  Or it could be like my pallet guy where he takes in 1-2 TT loads of cants per week and just blows through them. 


Paul how come he don't want cutstock?
Boy, back in my day..

longtime lurker

We've been pedal to the metal for close on 5 months and just scraping by for logs. Which is to say I got plenty of trees in the bush but I need more staff to be able to run at this speed and log simultaneously.

Been plenty of days where I'd leave at 3am, get a load of logs in the yard by lunch... and be leaving again at 3am next morning with the yard pretty empty behind me. Just scraping by for months - and then the skidder broke down and... for the first time since we started I had a totally bare yard right down to the bed logs I stack other logs on being sawn. Lets call that little blown seal on a skidder a 15k repair job - $2100 for parts and labour and about 13k in lost work. Up and running again now and I got a couple loads in last week but by Tuesday I'll be chasing wood again.

And the wet season looms and my gut tells me we're due a big one. So in addition to what we need to feed the beast I need to be starting to stockpile. Figure I need 300 ton of hardwood into the yard between now and Christmas at a bare minimum, and I'm supposed to be running a rainforest hardwood harvest in there as well for another 100 ton of specialty logs and... time. I feel the clock ticking all day, so much to do.

Juggling, we're all good at it but I dunnno how I'm quite going to manage this unless someone skilled pops out of the woodwork to run a harvest for me.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Peter Drouin

4x4 there must be a way to get ahead on pallet stock, And on logs?
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

paul case

There is a way to do that, but the capital to do it is the hold up for us anyway. He and the pallet buyer wants them fresh, but I could stock up on logs but quickly run out of log buying money. I wouldnt want to have more than 6 or 8 truckloads of logs here. Last December through February we didnt get very many logs in and had sawn through all we had before the first of March.

Just today I got a call from the landowner next door that we logged out of last fall and through the winter. She let me cut 80 acres of her 240 and is willing to let me log another 40 acres of it. I went and drove over it with the 4 wheeler and there are some trees in there that will make logs I can use but nothing like what we logged for her before.

The other logger with a gn and skid steer has a 160 acre tract that I am supposed to start getting some logs from.

At least we have few logs starting to come our way.

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

4x4American

LL:  Is there any way you can hire the logging out?  I know that a bunch of loggers around here pretty much only custom cut for bigger outfits.  I was talking with one of my friends who does it but I can't remember off the top of my head what the going rate is. 


Peter:  For the pallet stock, I pretty much load it on the truck as fast as I can make it, usually.  The longest I've had cutstock in my yard waiting for a truck has been maybe a week and a half.  They store it inside but usually it don't sit very long in their shed before they use it and they can really knock out some pallets.  They sell my cutstock to another company they do business with and from what the drivers tell me, that place only buys in cutstock they don't even have a resaw and they have a humongous parking lot just filled up to the brim with cutstock and finished pallets.  Ask Youngstump, in one of his videos of him sawing ash on youtube when they had just got their 70, you can see the camera guy pan out and they had what looked like a shipload of pallet cants in their yard in addition to logs up the wazoo.  Pallet logs can store for quite awhile the biggest downside is when they get dried out its slower cutting, but it don't really hurt the lumber none.   My main buyer there they have a scragg mill too but their parcel is very small so they're about filled up with 9-10 truck/pup loads and that's when they start sending the trucks to my yard.  They also sell KD bagged firewood so they have another little spot where they keep firewood logs.  I was talking to the guy that runs the firewood part of their operation and he said they have been shipping out 2 TT loads of palletized bagged firewood/week, and also trucking it out to the local gas stations in their contract and RV parks and stuff.  Their little Multitek processor sure gets a workout.  The guy running it wants to upgrade it but he knows that if they convince the bossman to upgrade he's gonna want 10 TT loads/week which they could do if they added two more kilns he thinks :D but they ain't got no room they're in the middle of town.


Boy, back in my day..

Peter Drouin

Paul, Don't logging take away from sawing?  Over here loggers and trucker do their thing and I saw. True, money can be tight when the yard is full of logs. What I find is when I can get good logs I jump on it. Just find the $$$ somewhere like selling more lumber. Do you have a buyer for all you can cut like 4x4?
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

paul case

I can sell all the ties and grade oak that I can saw. The stringers would take more than I make sometimes, but are a little picky about end of the month stuff as they have to inventory every first of the month. So they may buy 2 loads a week for the first 2 weeks of the month and 1 load the third week and hardly ever do they buy any the last week. The 3x4 cants are a demand thing. I just try to have logs so I can cut them out when they need them.

The trick for me is that you almost always get 3x as many logs that wont grade. some of those will tie. The cant deal dont have to be perfect so I can use logs that wont tie to make them.

Ties 3x4 cants and stringers all pay about the same as 1com lumber, so if we are sawing for grade it has to be 1 com or better or it is getting made into stringers.

I buy every log that comes in. I just have to go hunting sometimes as we want to be sawing year around and some want to log in the fall winter and spring.

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

moodnacreek

60 miles north of  new York city, I have to hide from logs. Being such a small operator I can't saw and stack fast enough. You can get all the open grown tree service junk and bury yourself.  We also have nice hard wood around, especially red oak. In spite of this I have trouble  keeping  white oak and locust logs on the ground. Also to get pine in the fall for winter sawing is almost impossible. My kingdom for a log pond!

Peter Drouin

There's a lot I don't know about the tie and pallet market Paul.
:P
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

longtime lurker

Quote from: 4x4American on September 23, 2017, 08:43:54 PM
LL:  Is there any way you can hire the logging out?  I know that a bunch of loggers around here pretty much only custom cut for bigger outfits.  I was talking with one of my friends who does it but I can't remember off the top of my head what the going rate is. 

30 years ago this was one of Australias major timber production areas but the feds locked up most of the rainforest resource under a world heritage listing in '88. The big mills progressively closed down over the next ten years and the contractors went with them. Still a few operating but most of my timber comes from an area about 5 hours south of them and they dont want to work that hard anyway. Also got to factor in that my euc hardwood (as opposed to rainforest hardwood) resource is a crown (state) allocation. None of the contractors have the 500 bits of paper required to operate in there - operators tickets/ insurance/ qualified to measure logs to the crown schedules/ equipment that meets the inspection criteria and on and on and on because they's the governmint and they can drown you in paper. (Makes it kinda hard to be a little guy but thats partly the point!!)

Every mill thats depended solely on logging contractors for supply in this region for the last 20 years has gone under, what can I say. Can't rely on them even cutting off private lots. I tried to get a few of them to load but the sticking point wasnt the money it was that none of them wanted to be serious enough to jump through the hoops. In a state where 85% of the timber land is state controlled that tells ya how serious they want to be. If they dont want to be that serious about their business I got no time for them in mine. We buy the odd load of logs in of a few of them but for guaranteed supply I depend on me. PITA but having skidders, dozers, log loaders, and trucks is par for the course for any serious sawmill hereabouts. Not that theres many of us left.


And... just because I didnt have enough headaches we quoted three big jobs last week and got all three. So we now need ballpark 180 ton of sawlog through the mill before the end of October plus the 300 ton I thought I needed a week ago. All profits to pay off the now urgently required bigger truck. Sawmilling is a disease I tell ya...
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

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