Does anyone else have trouble working with family?

[Shamus Mcquail]

     So my dad bought a locally built manual band saw mill so we could cut lumber together.  Nice thought, I know.  The problem is, it's so hard to work with the man.  At the time, neither one of us were sawyers so neither one of us knew what we were doing.  It's hard to work with him because he won't make things easy on ourselves.  He has a tractor, so we should not be lifting on much.  The slabs would be carried by hand 30 ft from the mill and thrown into a pile.  The flitches were carried by hand 10 ft from the mill in a different direction and piled up to be cut later.  The trailer was backed up to within 20 ft of the mill and parked.  If I make a suggestion, I get the obligatory i'm older than you therefore I know more than you speech.  It is so painful to watch him work.  He will use the blade and mark the end of the log, go measure how thick the cut will be, adjust from there and repeat until the thickness is where he wants it.  There's a ruler on the mill head!  He doesn't think in 1/8" intervals, he can't remember the last cut height.  I've gotten to the point where I don't even want to work with him because he is to slow.  Working alone, I can get twice as much done.  I did 3 24" logs in a morning all by myself. 
     I have a pretty good system, without having to walk all over the yard.  First I park the trailer at the end of the mill maybe 5 ft away.  I can drag the end of the board onto the end of the trailer, then push it the rest of the way up without even having to get on the trailer, or carry the whole weight of the board.  I load the log with the tractor and only back the tractor up enough to get by as I walk the mill head down the log.  I leave the forks of the tractor up about knee high so I can load the slabs all the way to the back of the forks and the flitches on the end of the forks to be sawn later.  After the whole log is completely sawn, I take the slabs to a pile away from the mill.  There is no excess lifting, no extra steps.  It is quick and easy.  We had quite a surplus of logs to be cut and he was bragging that he had sawed everything up.  I went over, and instead of a pile of logs, there was a pile of cants.  He didn't really clean anything up.  He just took what was round and made it square.  There was nothing sawn to any dimension. 
     I was there today after a long hiatus, and the mill was not looking very efficient.  He has the end of the mill blocked with slabs so you can't really get the tractor close enough with out jigging a couple times.  His grading skills aren't the best.  Some of the stuff he has sawed out I can take fist fulls of rot off them.  Some of the stuff he has earmarked for structural lumber is full of worm and ant holes.  Which he thinks is all fine.  I wouldn't trust it to build a house.  It's a mess.  I guess my question here is, what do I do?  I do want to work with him, but he makes it very difficult.  Thanks for lending me an ear and letting me vent a little bit.

[Texas Ranger]

Is age a factor?  Dad's can be problematic, wish mine was still here to argue with.   

Fill in your personal information so we know where ya are, who ya are, and we can get comfortable.

Oh, and welcome to the forum.

[uler3161]

It sounds like you have a good grasp on how to run things. It's unfortunate your dad didn't have a background in sawing or he might understand better. My dad came from that background and while we do argue sometimes, we're pretty much always on the same page with how to get our sawing done.

Maybe it would help for you to go watch a couple other small sawmills with your dad and see how they do it? Maybe he'll see the light.

[Shamus Mcquail]

Is age a factor?

Oh, and welcome to the forum.

Age shouldn't be a factor, I'm 36 and he is 65.  I personally think your done retaining knowledge when your 60 and you start losing it.  But apparently when your 65, you know more than anyone else.  ;D
Thanks for the warm welcome.

[Shamus Mcquail]

It sounds like you have a good grasp on how to run things. It's unfortunate your dad didn't have a background in sawing or he might understand better. My dad came from that background and while we do argue sometimes, we're pretty much always on the same page with how to get our sawing done.

Maybe it would help for you to go watch a couple other small sawmills with your dad and see how they do it? Maybe he'll see the light.

Thanks, there is always a new trick to learn out there.  I have learned most of what I know by watching you tube videos.  Speaking of that, dad has started watching videos too.  He has found people that sharpen there band saw blades with angle grinders.  I asked him how he is going to set the blade and he grumbled and said don't worry about it.  He was impressed that the blade sawed for a few hours before it was dull.  This endeavor will be fun.

[uler3161]

Thanks, there is always a new trick to learn out there.  I have learned most of what I know by watching you tube videos.  Speaking of that, dad has started watching videos too.  He has found people that sharpen there band saw blades with angle grinders.  I asked him how he is going to set the blade and he grumbled and said don't worry about it.  He was impressed that the blade sawed for a few hours before it was dull.  This endeavor will be fun.

Hmm. Yeah, I think we probably take blade maintenance a bit more seriously :D I know right away when I have a blade with bad set and it gets taken off and replaced. And we set every time we sharpen. If the budget allows, you should be looking at a dedicated sharpener and setter if you (or your dad) want to do it yourself.

[Ox]

Yes.  Is the answer to your main question.  If I got started on the trouble I have with my father's attitude and Napoleon complexes I'd never finish typing.  I simply can't work with the man and I've stopped altogether helping him with anything ever again.  This is all free, what I've tried to do for him.  Free milling, free mechanic work, free mowing, etc.  Never good enough.  He's always "complaining" about everything and I can't stand to be around him anymore.  I wish I had some good news or suggestions for you but I don't.  Some of these guys simply can't be helped.  They won't allow it.  So let them suffer in their own misery, move on with your own life but don't let it run you down by trying to help a hopeless cause.

[Percy]

Looking st this from the other side as in my situation.  I'm the dad working with my son. We been at it for many years together. When we were learning, he was just a teen and didn't have any skills concerning milling. When he bought his own mill in 08, I was proud but I did have these feelings similar to what the dad's are guilty of. It's hard to let go of being the "guy". But I learned quick that them young guys while inexperienced, have more energy than they should which makes my life easier. Also l as a dad, had to learn how to think practically as opposed to emotionally. I know some dad's are just plain EDITED but others behaving this way are actually kind of scared of becoming useless. If the relationship is worth saving, take it upon yourself to figure a way to make him feel like he is the "guy" and change things to a more harmonious relationship in your mill. A good thing to remember in situations like this is the chip don't fall too far from the axe. In other words, don't behave like him when his is being ornery. And remember, the difference between a good day and a bad day is your attitude

[Magicman]

It sounds to me like you and your Dad need to park the sawmill and go fishing.   ;D

[Hilltop366]

I guess you could video tape yourself and put it on youtube for your Dad to watch? ;D

[Bruno of NH]

Worked for and with family a lot over the years can be tough.
What I would give to argue with my Dad while working together again

[Delawhere Jack]

Trouble working with family? I could write a book..... several books in fact, a trilogy at minimum.

When I left the family business at 22 and went to work for a competitor, my relationship with my father improved tremendously. It's sad in some ways, but it taught me a lot. I think "The Old Man" knew there was no good future for me there. In hindsight, I'm glad he pushed me out of the nest.

[DannyLand]

I feel your pain but have outgrown my fathers ability to give the , "I know more than you do" speech.  I love the guy but there was a lot of tough days working together on our houses growing up.   (he was a carpenter in his youth prior to becoming a police officer but didnt seem to learn anything new since age 25 about carpentry or woodworking)   I have threatened bodily harm if he ever uses gorilla glue or gloss polyurethane on a piece of antique furniture again.  My dad is 69 this year so maybe its a baby boomer issue.  By now my father sees the stuff I do and realizes I know more about woodworking and mechanical things than he does, but he refuses to ask my opinion on anything or take my advice, hed rather do things the hard way.  Like you said, its painful to watch him work. Theres no way to explain to him that there is a better way to do something, even if he sees what Im doing works better.  We dont work together and we are both happier for it.

How long have you guys been milling together?   When I first got milling, I wouldnt think about how many times I was moving things or how far, or the quality of what I was cutting.  The first cherry log I sliced up only had a 6 foot section of quality wood on the log, but I sliced up the whole 10 foot length just because I thought there might be something worth saving in the bad section. The fresh cut boards would be piled up, moved to my drying pile and then stacked and stickered.   Now I have a big pile of stickers next to cribbing 8 feet away from the mill so each slice worth keeping goes straight onto the pile, stickers placed on top before making the next cut so I only handle each board once.  The stickered and stacked pile gets picked up with the skid steer and placed on fresh cribbing. The next time I touch it is after its dry and ready to work with.  Slabs get tossed onto a pile at the end of the mill, all set to go through the cross cut saw and into the firewood box at the end of the day.  So much better than tripping over things, moving things three times, walking 30 feet to pile the slabs further away to process when the pile got really big and in a terrible mess.   
     It might be best to just slowly work things into your way of doing them with him.  If you have any control of things, park the trailer a little closer each day until its backed up to the mill where you want it.  Park the tractor closer and drag the slabs right onto it, making it closer and closer each day.    One thing that works for me is a distraction technique.  Give him something else for him to focus on and he wont see the other things your doing.  Its certainly a learning curve, a lot of stuff you can learn from the internet but until youre doing it yourself, it doesnt sink in.   Maybe leave him to do some milling on his own for a while and perhaps he will start doing things your way in your absence.   Or you can just be blunt and call him a stubborn fool and not a team player.   Does he have a reason for making you work harder or is he getting some kind of revenge on you for some difficult teenage years? 
    Maybe make yourself a marking guage for cutting material rather than him relying on kissing with the blade and then adjusting accordingly. A combination square and a sharpie might be the easiest way.   Set the square to what thickness you want and lower the blade to the mark.    Not sure how your saw works but mine has a hand-crank on the side, each revolution of the handle is 1/4".  There is a guage on the mill head but it doesnt seem to be as accurate as just counting turns and locking in at the bottom of every 5th turn.   
    Good luck, fee free to vent or rant any time, Im sure many of us here can share your frustration.    Put up a photo of your setup when you can.   

[esteadle]

So first, I'm glad you have a Dad to work with. Mine, he quit being a Dad not long after he became one.

Now, the real question is why you want to work with your Dad, despite your misgivings. You said quite clearly you do. But, if he wasn't your Dad, would you still want to? If you hired an old sawyer to run your mill with you, gave him the controls, and he had you carrying slabs 30 feet and flitches 20 feet, and wouldn't let you park the trailer in the best place to make stacking the boards less work... well, you would have fired him by now, I'm sure.

So the question is really what's keeping you from walking away? It's got to be something that's important to you, I would think.

Maybe it's a sense of obligation to him? All those years of raising you... that counts for something.

Maybe its that you don't consider yourself an equal partner? He is the elder, and maybe it was his idea to buy it?

Or is it money? Did you share the cost of the mill? Could you buy him out?

Perhaps it's just that it's not as much fun without someone else there to share the experience? I know when I saw by myself, I do get lonely out there without someone to talk to.

Figure out your reasons you want to keep working with him, and I suspect you'll have your answer... and then you can make a decision about what's important to you.

Best of luck, and good sawing...

[Shamus Mcquail]

It's hard to let go of being the "guy".  I know some dad's are just plain EDITED but others behaving this way are actually kind of scared of becoming useless.

That's what i'm looking for, that explains what I am seeing.

In other words, don't behave like him when his is being ornery. And remember, the difference between a good day and a bad day is your attitude

That's what I did today.  I was just the laborer.  I didn't offer my input on anything.  I just took the finished boards and walked them 20 ft to the trailer.

[Shamus Mcquail]

Worked for and with family a lot over the years can be tough.
What I would give to argue with my Dad while working together again

The problem is i'm to submissive and just let him win.  Then I let it eat me up inside.

[Shamus Mcquail]

How long have you guys been milling together?

Only a couple years.  I stopped working with him just for these reasons.

I drew the line when we were working on his house replace the floor where a sliding glass door was.  We were replacing the space with a wide window.  The floor was rotten and so were the floor stringers.  They were pretty punky but he didn't want to replace it.  I told him we should replace the stringers.  We didn't.  He made a reference after that like "I don't cut corners and am not going to start now."  I stopped helping him after that.

[bandmiller2]

Shamus, talk with the old man and tell him one day a week you want to run the mill and call the shots. If that comes to pass he will see how much easier things are but of course he will never admit it. Hopefully eventually he will modify and see that your way works pretty good. Frank C.

[Shamus Mcquail]

So first, I'm glad you have a Dad to work with. Mine, he quit being a Dad not long after he became one.

Sorry to hear that.

If you hired an old sawyer to run your mill with you, gave him the controls, and he had you carrying slabs 30 feet and flitches 20 feet, and wouldn't let you park the trailer in the best place to make stacking the boards less work... well, you would have fired him by now, I'm sure.

That's a totally different story.  I would be the boss and if I am handling the labor, it would be my way.

So the question is really what's keeping you from walking away? It's got to be something that's important to you, I would think.

If we could work in harmony, everything would be ok.  But the world isn't perfect.

Or is it money? Did you share the cost of the mill? Could you buy him out?

It's his money in all of it, mill and tractor.

[ozarkgem]

Left home at 17, Never looked back. My dad was hard to get along with. One thing I did learn was how to work. It that realm he was successful, and for that I am thankful.

[Percy]

So first, I'm glad you have a Dad to work with. Mine, he quit being a Dad not long after he became one.

Sorry to hear that.

If you hired an old sawyer to run your mill with you, gave him the controls, and he had you carrying slabs 30 feet and flitches 20 feet, and wouldn't let you park the trailer in the best place to make stacking the boards less work... well, you would have fired him by now, I'm sure.

That's a totally different story.  I would be the boss and if I am handling the labor, it would be my way.

So the question is really what's keeping you from walking away? It's got to be something that's important to you, I would think.

If we could work in harmony, everything would be ok.  But the world isn't perfect.

Or is it money? Did you share the cost of the mill? Could you buy him out?

It's his money in all of it, mill and tractor.

Not to make light of this topic, but Shamus, you have this "quote" thing down pat :D :D

[thecfarm]

Shamus Mcquail,welcome to the forum.
I will try not to write a book.It's hard to work with a Father like that. Mine was born in 1923. We started to cut wood on this land. That was a struggle. I did learn alot.BUT. He was set in the old ways. 4 foot pulp had to be marked and stacked. It had to be exactly 48 inches.I finally convinced him to just push it up into a pile and cut it that way. That was a battle. We had a tractor and he could not do it,He tried and did not work and he said,can't do it.  : He drove the tractor,he was 72,at the time,so I did the groundwork of hooking and unhooking. I told him to get off and I pushed the pulp up into a pile. Every time we brought pulp out,he would get off the tractor and I would push it up into a pile.Than he would get back on.
Than we had a bunch of ugly white pine and I do mean UGLY. Knots a foot through and even had a crotch in it. The guy doing the hauling saw one pushed off to the side asked my Father about. It's no DanG good was his reply. The driver said the mill would take. That got my Father going. As he was saying how the sawmill would not take it the driver was telling me to go get it. So I did and onto the load it went while my Father was still saying they won't take that. It was the only 8 foot log on the load,thank God. Well we got the scale slip and there was that 8 foot log and they paid us for it. That was his words too.They took it,and they paid us for it. So we chased down every ugly looking pine we could find and sent them to the sawmill.
He was set in his ways. I can see him doing that with a sawmill. Seem like he grew up working hard and there was no other way to do it.
I am not one that wants to do something quicker,but easier I am all for it.
We cut up 2-3 load of fur and spruce for pulp because my Father said it was not good enough for logs. The driver tried to tell him diffeant,but no way,it was not good enough for logs. Lost some money on them loads.

[plowboyswr]

Your Dad sounds a lot like my Granddad. If the barn lot needed cleaned he want us to grab a shovel and start in, even though we had several skidsteers sitting around. My Dad and he would go round and round on how to do something, while my Brother and I would just go out and get it done the way that Dad wanted to do it. It usually took a few times before Gramps caught on to how we were doing things so quick but once he saw it and how it can improve how quickly something can be done he was all for it. After Gramps passed Dad started showing the signs of the stubbornness. But if I would pose ideas in the form of a question he was more open to trying them. Not saying that it would work every time but at least he wasn't defencive about the topic if it was a different way of doing something. By the time Dad passed we had come to terms on our working relationship. There are quite a few topics on here about improving efficiencies why not print some of them out and leave them for Dad to find. Sometimes seeing things in black and  white can help.

[sawguy21]

I worked with and learned a lot from my father, he was a wood worker and a real craftsman. I now wish I had paid more attention, he forgot more than I will ever know. Having said that, he could be difficult to work with. He naturally expected me to be available when he needed me, no wasn't an option while I was living under his roof. Once I had obligations like car payments, insurance  and upkeep regular pay became an issue. He had a little trouble understanding I couldn't afford to work for the occasional hand out just because I was his kid. We did with mom's help come to an understanding which smoothed things considerably.
The biggest problem I had was working for family run businesses where spoiled kids were given management roles. There was family then there were us minions that took the heat for poor planning not to mention the squabbles. One group even fought over which fast food joint was supplying their lunch and they were being groomed to take over, I didn't stay long :. The parents finally wised up and sold out.

[longtime lurker]

Guess I'm lucky: theres no-one I'd rather work with then my dad. His knees are going and its painful to watch him move around at times, and I try and keep him away from the worst of the manual stuff... but he's still got a head on his shoulders and aint afraid of breaking a sweat. And I just plain like the guy - if he wasnt my father I'd want him for one.

The family that I cant work with is my kids: good kids but they have no interest in the business and I never could stand having people around who put more effort into avoiding a job then the job would take to do. Just not their thing is all - I dont know if I should be relieved that they're not interested in the industry or sad that I'm beating myself to death to build something that I wont be able to pass on to one of them.