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Sawing Too Thin

Started by WDH, September 26, 2016, 09:58:03 PM

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Waterford Woodworks

Well... I can see the advantage of sawing a little thicker. 1 and 1/8 will become my new standard. Now I know everyone is different but what would be the allowance for say stress relief. + or - 1/16?  Thanks for the input everyone.
2006 Lt40 Super Cat 51, Allis Chalmers 185
"Keep doing what your doing and you'll keep getting what your getting, life is what you make of it."

Magicman

Stress has to be relieved as you are sawing, and it would not be a predictably measurable amount.  I have seen a cant raise ¼" or more during one pass.   :o
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

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4x4American

Quote from: Magicman on October 03, 2016, 02:50:51 PM
Stress has to be relieved as you are sawing, and it would not be a predictably measurable amount.  I have seen a cant raise ¼" or more during one pass.   :o


1/4" is nothing, one time I had a hickory cant reach out and swat me and then it reached my key and shut the mill off.  No kidding, eh?
Boy, back in my day..

WDH

Had a customer come looking for some wood.  She said that she went to buy some cedar from another sawyer, but it was sawn at 3/4" thick  :-\.  Maybe suitable for lining a closet, but how good is the cedar closet lining market?
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

sawwood


I picked up a cherry log over the week end and the customer had a small cherry log and a ash log he wanted cut.
He said he wanted it cut to 1" and i asked what size he wanted after dry and planed. He said 3/4" and i said we
needed to cut to 1 1/8" so he would have enough to make 3/4 lumber. After i deliver his lumber he said is that
why i could not git 3/4 with what other sawyer cut my logs. I said did you asked for 1" and he said yes, didn't
the sawyer tell you about cutting thicker, he said no. We all ways cut to 1 1/8" or more if asked to.

Sawwood.
Norwood M4 manual mill, Solar Kiln, Woodmaster
18" planer/molder

sandsawmill14

Quote from: WDH on April 20, 2017, 08:05:04 AM
Had a customer come looking for some wood.  She said that she went to buy some cedar from another sawyer, but it was sawn at 3/4" thick  :-\.  Maybe suitable for lining a closet, but how good is the cedar closet lining market?
i dont understand peoples thinking about cedar  ::) i have been told to saw it on 1" or even 3/4" several times by guys who have a pile of cedar post ( not saw logs ) and these guys are wanting to sell the lumber  :o the guys who are wanting the lumber to use themselves know how they want it cut and why so i cut how they want it  :) but those other guys think they have a gold mine and try to cheat the guy they are wanting to sell to by cutting it to thin  smiley_dizzy think_not dadgum you, Charlie! no_no now i just tell them im not interested and go fishing ;)  by the way we caught 38 keepers tuesday night 8)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

longtime lurker

I think...

As a general rule here I work on finished thickness + ¼" with a variation for shrinkage. So if we're cutting flooring material I sit on 1", material for cabinet/joinery application which is normally 7/8"finished here I sit on 1 1/8. If I'm factoring in shrinkage in excess of 5% I'll add 1 mm to it.

Sawing fatter then that is insurance. There's a cost to doing so and its not just scavenging an extra board here and there its also the cost of drying extra thickness and then removing it in the drymill. Against which the penalty for thin is stiff.... if I saw an inch board and it doesnt make a ¾ finished floorboard the next size down for me is panelling at ½... and thats a lot of wasted meat: Wasted wood, wasted kiln time, and increased wear on the moulders.
Same with cabinet and joinery timbers that dont make 7/8... the price drop to ¾ is significant.

So the real question is "how much insurance do you need?" And the answer to that will vary depending on the equipment choices you make because some equipment saws more accurately then others. Some operators can drive a saw better then others. And it will vary depending on the attention to detail a sawyer has behind the saw with regard stacking and stickering and storage.

One thing I will say is that I have been able to do it differently then most. I've built a customer base for our value added stuff thats mostly direct ex mill without an agent/buyer in the middle. And because I dont have to hit the middle mans spec for thickness which is based around the lowest common denominator it has pushed me to look at all this. If I had an agent between me and customer then I would just sit on 1¼ or whatever number he wanted too. I don't have that agent, my spec is customer derived, and if I think I can saw thinner and get a bad result then the only one who loses out is me because I got to cut another lot to fill the same order.

Jake pinned it at the start: if you want to know how good you saw, kiln it and dress it after. And if you saw and store good and you find that you're dressing off excess all the time then why not reduce the insurance?

The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

WDH

Sometimes it is necessary to get a finished board that is thicker than 3/4", like 7/8" for face frames or for tops of chests and such.  Sawing at 1" rough gives you little flexibility beyond 3/4".  It also sets me apart from the Big Box Stores as their lumber is all at 3/4" thick or a bit thinner. 

Also, good quality furniture requires boards that are dead FLAT.  Sometimes you have to joint some bow out then plane and that is where the 1 1/8" board really gives you the flexibility that you need. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

sandsawmill14

^^^^ what he said ;D  lurkers wood could dry different from ours  ???   but getting the cup out of a board that is sawn at 1 1/8 is cutting it close if its over 8" wide to finish at 3/4 and no way to get 7/8  :( and the wider the board the worse it gets ::)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

longtime lurker

Cup will change the numbers for sure if you allow it to happen.

So don't let it cup. Problem solved.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

YellowHammer

Quote from: longtime lurker on April 21, 2017, 06:53:55 AM
Cup will change the numbers for sure if you allow it to happen.

So don't let it cup. Problem solved.
Also, cup can be controlled, to some extent, by the sawing pattern.  Or conversely, it can be made much more likely, and much worse, with incorrect sawing patterns.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

D6c

Interesting thread, especially since there isn't much of an established furniture lumber market here (that I know of).
I've got about 60 walnut logs (small to med.) right now that I'm unsure how I want to saw them.

The original scale on my LT40 only allowed 1/6" inch for blade kerf and 4/4 was under 1" so I made another scale allowing 0.1" so 4/4 measures a full 1" 
From reading this thread it sounds like need to make up another scale that will make 4/4 lumber at 1 1/8".

....A setworks would make things a lot easier.

Darrel

I have found from personal experience that there is nothing worse than not having the wood I needed to complete the project I had in mind.

I WILL NEVER SKIMP AGAIN!!!
1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

WDH

Quote from: D6c on April 21, 2017, 09:47:49 AM
From reading this thread it sounds like need to make up another scale that will make 4/4 lumber at 1 1/8".

Yes, especially for walnut. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

barbender

The scale on my WM has a regular quarter scale on one side, and a hardwood scale on the other where the 4/4 is 1 1/8" if I remember right (97 model).
Too many irons in the fire

Larry

Quote from: WDH on April 20, 2017, 08:05:04 AM
Had a customer come looking for some wood.  She said that she went to buy some cedar from another sawyer, but it was sawn at 3/4" thick  :-\.  Maybe suitable for lining a closet, but how good is the cedar closet lining market?

I've sold quite a bit of 3/4" cedar.  Yes, closet lining, paneling, siding, and craft items.  Next best seller is 10/4 for outside stuff.

I'm sometimes amazed at what sells. :D
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

YellowHammer

I'm trying another experiment.  A local mill had a whole stack of miscut thin cedar boards.  Waste of lumber for them, opportunity for me.  I bought about 800 bdft for almost nothing, dried and planed it to 1/2" on one side.  Rough sawn one side, planed the other.  We seem to have at least one customer a week ask for this, so now we can point them to the stack and hope they bite.  This is why the topic is so relevant as "sawing too thin" affects the big mills as well as us little guys. 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

sandsawmill14

to thin is a major problem for commercial lumber i had a tt load of poplar ( 12 mbdft ) because it was a 1 5/8 instead of 1 11/16 :o >:( ::) but they told me the spec beforehand so... smiley_dunce it was on me not them ::) when they give you a min spec its the min :( :D :D :D
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

plowboyswr

Got caught by a buddy's daughter at church a few weeks ago. She says Uncle Steve we are replacing the floor in our house can you bring your truck over so we can load up the debris to haul off. She bats them puppy dog eyes at me gives me a hug the best she can with her pregnant belly in the way so what was I to say.  Yeah, I go, we load up their old carpet and some other junk. Then she says can you help carry in the new flooring. Oh all right. We step into the garage and there sits a bundle of Cedar. That they are going to use for flooring. The "lumber" measures out at a whopping 3/8" thick with tongue and groove that are about 3/16" thick surface planed and sanded. 2 and 1/2" wide random length with nothing over 2' long. My jaw was scraping the ground. You're not seriously using this for flooring I remember saying. Yep we are her husband replies. He has put it down and it looks good but we shall see how it holds up. It takes all kinds!  ::)
Just an ole farm boy takin one day at a time.
Steve

thecfarm

The cedar here would not last long.
I can see 1/2 inch cedar for a liner for a closet. Would want something behind it too.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

kelLOGg

I planed hickory to 3/4" and planned to have it T&Ged for flooring in our house. I took it to a local woodwork shop that said their process required planning and T&Ging in one step. GLUP! I didn't know this. I accepted it at 9/16" and installed it with backer board under it to match the level of existing flooring. It looks great after 10 years. For subsequent flooring I saved a step and omitted the planing.
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