The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:




TimberKing Sawmills




Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Forest Products Industry Insurance


Norwood Industries Inc.


Sawmill & Woodlot Magazine



Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades


Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

Woodshax Outdoor Vending Solutions

FARMA

Forestry Forum Tool Box

Author Topic: Sawing Too Thin  (Read 5426 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ozarkgem

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1478
  • Location: SW Mo
  • Gender: Male
  • age 65 yrs old
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2016, 06:55:31 pm »

Hit and miss caused by blade wander is far less with a well tuned circle saw. Seems to me that any kerf saving you thin band guys get you give away to cutting thicker to allow for wavy cuts, and that at the end of the day in the " real world" of sawing there isn't that much yield difference either way: thin band kerf + oversaw = circle kerf.

I think this depends on how concerned with quality that the sawyer is. Either circle or band. I see the culls from the flooring plant that I sell to and there are far more miss cuts with a circle saw than with band sawn lumber in there. Most of them are too thin and never should have been sent. Blame it on the help.

However,   If a bandmiller doesnt keep the band sharp and not push it too hard they can cut very accurate. I still think that if you put my bandmill up against a circle mill mine will make an extra 4/4 board every 5 cuts of the circle saw. some circle saws can cut more in 25 minutes that my mill can in a day!

For finished, allowing for 8% shrinkage or less, we saw at 1".
Shrinkage out to 12% we saw at 1 3/64's ( metric guage is 26.5).

Hit and miss caused by blade wander is far less with a well tuned circle saw. Seems to me that any kerf saving you thin band guys get you give away to cutting thicker to allow for wavy cuts, and that at the end of the day in the " real world" of sawing there isn't that much yield difference either way: thin band kerf + oversaw = circle kerf.
No wavy cuts here...if a sawyer running a band mill has wavy cuts, he should stop and find out why, not keep sawing. I have a local furniture guy here who is extraordinary particular, and has been in business for 40 years. He religiously has used circle mills for years as his supplier, and to saw his logs....because of the same mind set, that band mills make wavy lumber. I told him I don't saw wavy lumber. I had the honor of sawing for him almost 2 years ago. I am now his sawyer, also gaining referrals from him. Bandmill kerf savings is significant. The fact remains that most circle mills will out produce most band mills.


I typed all that out and should have waited and just wrote SAME.

PC
Very few wavy cuts here unless dull and pushing. Certainly not enough to worry about. I set the saw on 1" and it cuts the board 15/16. No trouble cleaning up to 3/4. Pretty accurate. BTW I love circle saws.
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.

Offline ladylake

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4556
  • Age: 65
  • Location: grey eagle mn
  • Gender: Male
  • I need to edit my profile!
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2016, 08:19:09 pm »
 
 If I make 1 wavy cut I put on a sharp blade or find out why.  Steve
Timberking B20 12000 hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Dino setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Offline pineywoods

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4827
  • Age: 81
  • Location: Marion, Louisiana
  • Gender: Male
  • Engineering analysis-just sittin thinkin about it
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2016, 08:37:50 pm »

 If I make 1 wavy cut I put on a sharp blade or find out why.  Steve
Same here, I allow myself no more than 1 wavy cut...99.9% it's the blade...
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club

Offline ozarkgem

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1478
  • Location: SW Mo
  • Gender: Male
  • age 65 yrs old
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2016, 09:07:03 pm »

 If I make 1 wavy cut I put on a sharp blade or find out why.  Steve
Same here, I allow myself no more than 1 wavy cut...99.9% it's the blade...
X3
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.

Offline Larry

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5611
  • Age: 69
  • Location: NW Arkansas
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2016, 09:39:57 pm »
The online Shrinkulator calculator is a good tool for figuring shrinkage.  I input an initial MC of 40% and final moisture content of 8% for quarter sawing white oak.  Initial thickness of 1.  Final quarter sawn thickness after drying of .89" which is close to 7/8.  No meat left to do any planing for cleanup and have a board that meets standard thickness requirements.

When I first started sawing, I cut at 1-1/6 thick when plain sawing and was proud that my lumber would clean up most of the time at 13/16 thick.  But than I started to notice on my perfect, not a pimple 12 and wider boards a few were not cleaning up at 13/16 thick.  Only seemed to happen on those perfect boards that would bring a premium because they were wider than 12.  The cause could be traced to cupping during drying. 

After putting pencil to paper the economics said saw 1-1/8 thick and I would be happy and no longer loose a FAS wide board.  And to those who think they can get an extra board by sawing thin....that extra board comes out of the heart in most logs and is probably 3c.

These days I don't sell much lumber so I normally saw 4/4 at 1-3/16" or even 1-1/4" as I've found I like using thicker material when building my projects. 
Larry

Nine out of ten trees recommend wood for your building project.

Offline flatrock58

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Carrollton Ga
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2016, 09:49:24 pm »
My last batch of QS red oak was cut at 1 1/8".  I have built a couple of project that I really wanted to use 1" boards, but most of the boards cleaned up at 7/8".  I will be cutting 1 1/4" for QS from now on.
2001 LT40 Super Kubota 42
6' extension
resaw attachment
CBN Sharpener
Piney Woods modified Dual tooth setter.

Offline hopm

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 100
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2016, 10:29:37 pm »
i use to saw at 4/4......had too many that planed too thin.....I started sawing everthing at 5/4...I'm willing to sacrifice the extra usable cut to not lose the whole board

Offline customsawyer

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4601
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Rentz, Ga.
  • Gender: Male
    • The Custom Sawyer
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2016, 03:39:24 am »
Anytime you want to see how well you're sawing first dry your lumber in a kiln and then run it through a planer. These next two steps don't let you get away with much.
Two LT70s and to much other support equipment to mention.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

Offline WDH

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 25917
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Perry, GA
  • Gender: Male
  • April 1998 - August 2008
    • hamsleyhardwood.com
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2016, 08:01:31 am »
OK.  I am thinking about this issue from a furniture maker's perspective.  Sure, you can saw at 1" and clean up to 3/4", get that extra board, etc.  However, out of all the boards in a kiln load that are being planed and offered for sale, how many of the boards are gun barrel straight so that they merely have to be planed to final thickness and be used to make a table top, or chest of drawer top, or for any other piece of furniture that requires a flat, wider panel?  Just because a board is 3/4" thick and cleaned up on both sides does not make it suitable for use in making furniture or many other wood working projects.  Who wants a bow in their table?

The key word here is FLAT.  To build furniture you need flat components.  Most of the time, you need a jointer to flatten every board perfectly FLAT, then finish plane it.  I am not talking barn siding or paneling or flooring here. Those are different animals. 

My initial comments in this thread were aimed at furniture grade hardwood lumber.  They were also aimed at walnut and other high quality, furniture grade hardwoods which will be used to make furniture.  You can saw at 1", kiln dry to 8%, and get furniture grade results for full length boards for maybe half the boards in a pack.  With the rest, you can get some short pieces that will clean up and be straight enough, but there will be a significant amount where there is not enough meat on the bones to take out any imperfections like bow, twist, or warp.  And, I mean the slightest bow or twist. Flat has to be FLAT.

I shoot for 15/16" thick, fully planed boards that the woodworking customer can take and use a jointer to flatten the boards perfectly flat and then have enough to finish plane the board to 13/16" with 3/4" being the minimum.

Even though I was not clear in the title to this thread that it related to the highest end uses of hardwood lumber, this has been an informative discussion. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5640SU, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Offline scsmith42

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4353
  • Age: 57
  • Location: New Hill, NC
  • Gender: Male
  • He who dies with the most toys... WINS!!!
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2016, 11:25:12 am »
Danny, you and I think alike and serve similar customer needs. 

When milling, unless we know that it's for "barn wood" we are milling all furniture grade boards wider than 6" as 5/4 dry stock.  That way if they don't fully S2S at 1" we know that they will clean up at 3/4 or 7/8.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Offline Ron Wenrich

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13262
  • Age: 69
  • Location: Jonestown, PA
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2016, 12:02:08 pm »
I've sawn millions of bf for the commercial grade market.  Most buyers have a spec for the thickness, and it's sawn plump.  That means they won't take anything under 1/8" overage, and a bit thicker on the heavier markets like 8/4 and up.  It was always disheartening to see lumber go from FAS or Common to pallet due to thickness.  You can loose major dollars real quick in a load.  If the lumber continues to be too thin, you'll lose the customer.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline longtime lurker

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 871
  • Location: QLD, Australia
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2016, 05:57:35 pm »

I set out several years ago to be the best in the business. Not saying I'm there yet but I'm getting therein terms of quality of output. My goal is to send to market the best board I can make out of a given log: a board thats straight, flat, and dimensionally accurate. Colour and grain is Gods business, but in terms of what I can control I do everything in my power to make it as good as I can. I think its working - in the last 12 months we've supplied timber direct ex mill or had product with timber ex this mill go into every mainland Australian state, the USA, Germany, UK, Japan, Israel and who knows where else. I dont want to be a big sawmiller with 50 guys running around, but I do need to keep a roof over the heads of wife and kids and if I cant do that with volume then I have to do it with quality.

As part of that I had to look real hard at just what it takes to cut a good board and keep it that way. It's a whole of greenmill process. The boards coming off the mill have to be flat with no thick and thin. Theres always a bit - but my tolerance for thick and thin before I start looking for a problem is +/- 1mm, or 3/64"s for you imperial types. I dont worry about 3/64's in one board, but if I see it in three in a row i start looking for why. If there is excessive thickness the board goes sideways and gets put through the thicknesser to remove the thick at least prior to going in the pack, if its scant it gets put in the middle of the pack rather then the edges so the stickers lay flat and it doesnt distort the row of boards above it. I keep my saws sharp and tuned - if I'm seeing "circle saw"marks then its an issue. The marks are there obviously, but those big gouges that an out of whack circle gives are meat wasted when its time to dress a board clean.

Then its about how lumber is stripped out for drying. Thicknessed stickers, even packs, pack weights. I havent seen a board cupped that badly that it wouldnt make finished (and finished means flat) outside the top four rows of a top of the heap pack for a couple of years. I'm not saying that theres no cup... but if the boards themselves are even thickness in the pack, and the stickers are even thickness, and the stickers are vertically aligned through the packs and close enough together - well theres a lot of pressure on the boards in there from above and if they want to cup they got to work for it. As of last year we never put boards wider then 6"in the top rows either. Because when I could see cupped wider boards in the top of the pack and flat wider ones 5 rows down... it wasnt rocket science.

Then its about the initial air drying. I dont have much of the stain or fungal issues you guys do so I can bring them down nice and steady. Rapid early drying might be great for getting white lumber to market white but its also great for making it pull into circles. If we're doing species where stain is an issue now all boards get a swim in anti fungal treatment so I can still dry slow initially. Its a cost, and its a pain... but worthwhile.

But above all the driver of this has been sawing tolerances, because you can do everything else right but if the lumber isnt even going into a pack then it aint going to somehow get remarkably better coming out. Repeatable accuracy has become my most important consideration in equipment for that reason.  We run " TCT or stellite teeth on the circle resaws. I'd like to go to a band for the kerf saving but to get that kerf saving with my accuracy goal would require a band of minimum 6" width and more better if it was 8". Wide bands cut straighter, its a fact.

Wide bands also tend to have things like hob feeds, hydraulic sizing, and linebar positioning systems as well, and thats the important stuff. When you size by dropping an inch off the last cut its kind of empirical because the issue is did the log/flitch/cant stay flat after the last cut? It can be hard to tell when we're talking about 1/8" lift from tension over 16' in the log with sawdust spread everywhere and a sawmill running. I far prefer positive sizing where the thickness sawn is the distance between the saw and a fence and the cant/flitch passes through it. I can saw a bend in for sure - I've seen it before where the boards are bowed from end to end but perfect for thickness because the operator didnt bother to run a shim or face cut as required. But my experience also tells me that even then I have more hope of pressing that bowed board back to flat in a stack then I do of getting thick and thin lumber to dry flat in the same stack.

Thick and thin lumber is the absolute worst thing in a drying stack because not only is that board not good, but its making every board above in the stack distort to its shape as well. You can dry a bend in just as easy as you can dry one out.

The other thing of course is the recovery increase. I run circle resaws with " kerf, which to my mind is the same as a band with a 1/8" kerf that requires 1/8" of oversaw to get the same flat board to market. I just make my sawdust in the greenmill not the drymill. Now if I could get that 1/8" kerf without the need for oversaw then that IS a real kerf saving. I really dont want the headaches of a big band filing room though... of late this combination of factors is whats pushing me to really look at sash gang resaws as an option to replace the circle resaw.

Great topic Danny - and one I,m rather passionate about as you can see.

 


The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Offline ozarkgem

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1478
  • Location: SW Mo
  • Gender: Male
  • age 65 yrs old
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2016, 06:36:21 pm »
1" works fine on my Cedar. The only time they don't clean up is blade dip.
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.

Offline thecfarm

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 25005
  • Age: 56
  • Location: Chesterville,Maine
  • Gender: Male
  • If I don't do it,it don't get done
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2016, 06:55:23 pm »
I do not saw for furniture makers. Just for me. BUT if I was sawing for furniture makers.I would be listening to WDH. And If I ever do saw for furniture makers I will remember what WDH posted.  ;)
The proof is in some of his past posts.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Offline Peter Drouin

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 7474
  • Location: New Hampshire
  • Gender: Male
    • Sanbornton Construction L.L.C.
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2016, 07:51:31 pm »
I'm With WDH, Cut fat.  ;D
2008 LT40 super, And can cut up to 45' long
http://www.forestryforum.com/sanbornton     NH Timberland Owners Association supporter.
And a license NH soft wood grader.
Sawing since 1987

Offline Waterford Woodworks

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 46
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Indiana
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2016, 09:50:03 pm »
Out of curiosity, when you sell, say a board that is 12 inches wide 8 feet long and 1 1/8" thick, are you selling that as 8 board feet or 9 board feet? If I have a log that has 200 board feet in it and I saw it at 1 1/8", then i am only able to sell 177 board feet. I'm not against the idea but may have to reconsider my selling price or what i might pay for logs. There are so many years of experience on this forum and i appreciate it being handed down like grandma's secret recipe.
2006 Lt40 Super Cat 51, Allis Chalmers 185
"Keep doing what your doing and you'll keep getting what your getting, life is what you make of it."

Offline paul case

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4502
  • Age: 43
  • Location: extreeme northeast Oklahoma
  • Gender: Male
  • Original wearer of the PCM.
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2016, 10:31:19 pm »
The way it works where I sell at is 1 1/8''+ is 4/4. =1''.

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

Offline YellowHammer

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2333
  • Age: 52
  • Location: New Market, Alabama
  • Gender: Male
  • There's a lot more to it.
    • Hobby Hardwood Alabama
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2016, 11:31:25 pm »
Out of curiosity, when you sell, say a board that is 12 inches wide 8 feet long and 1 1/8" thick, are you selling that as 8 board feet or 9 board feet? If I have a log that has 200 board feet in it and I saw it at 1 1/8", then i am only able to sell 177 board feet. I'm not against the idea but may have to reconsider my selling price or what i might pay for logs. There are so many years of experience on this forum and i appreciate it being handed down like grandma's secret recipe.
The significant increased value (selling price) of the the thicker board will more that cover the increase in wood used. 
For example, I flat saw white oak to standard hardwood 4/4 of 1 1/8", dry it to 1 1/16" and plane it to 15/16".  Things have to be pretty tight and right on the mill to saw flat enough where I only have to take a 1/16" off each side of a board to get it planed.  This nominal 1 inch thick board is a lot more desireble to a customer than a 3/4" inch board so sells for a higher price.  So, by having the mill dialed in and cutting precisely flat, I gain the extra up-charge in price with no increase in wood sawn.  So flat sawing = profit increase.  By the same token, we have guys around here who also saw to 1 1/8" and struggle to get a fully planed board at 3/4".

In the case of quarter sawn white oak, I get almost a 40% increase in sales price, and also sell it at the thicker, planed 15/16".  I only need to increase my cutting depth 1/16" to get a nicely planed 15/16" board.  When considering the added collateral waste of quarter sawn wood anyway, adding that 1/16" drop is a minimal consideration.   
Hobby Hardwood Alabama.com
LT40 Diesel Hydraulic, Stihl 028, MS440, MS660, 2 Kilns

Offline Ron Wenrich

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13262
  • Age: 69
  • Location: Jonestown, PA
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2016, 05:40:46 am »
Commercial sales is by the nominal foot.  That's pretty much the industry standard.  For grading purposes, they use a grade stick that has the surface measure marked on it.  At the half foot mark is where they change the amount of footage in the board.  Some of the boards go up a bit in volume, and some may go down.  That number is also used in figuring out grade.  Volume is then figured by the surface measure x nominal thickness.

If you're trying to squeeze footage by charging for that additional overage, you may be higher priced than your competition.  Do you charge less for a 2x4 that is cut scant?
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline 4x4American

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5229
  • Age: 125
  • Location: SE Adirondacks USA
  • Gender: Male
  • Team red, white, blue and orange
    • Website Link
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2016, 05:50:33 am »
Yes this is a good thread,  I got my lesson on this awhile back when I sold some walnut to a local hardwood place.  I cut it 2" thick, didnt think to add 1/4".  He told me about it lol 
Boy, back in my day..