The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:




TimberKing Sawmills



The Largest Inventory of Used Chainsaw Parts in the World

Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools


Forest Products Industry Insurance

Norwood Industries Inc.

Sawmill & Woodlot Magazine



Wood Processing equpment. Splitters, Processors, Conveyors

Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL

Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades

Comstock Logging

Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

Woodshax Outdoor Vending Solutions



Forestry Forum Tool Box

Author Topic: Sawing Too Thin  (Read 4657 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline WDH

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 25212
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Perry, GA
  • Gender: Male
  • April 1998 - August 2008
    • hamsleyhardwood.com
Sawing Too Thin
« on: September 26, 2016, 09:58:03 pm »
Had a guy that wanted to sell me 1500 BF of walnut that had been sawn a couple of years ago and air dried.  The problem was that the sawyer sawed the boards 1" thick.  To add to that, it was sawn poorly, with a lot of the boards too thick on the ends and not thick enough in the middle.  It was clear that the sawyer did not pay much attention to quality and consistency, did not manage stress in the cant well, and was probably in Slam Bam, Cut-em Quick, and Clear Out mode.  Just Saws Em Fast and Leaves Em Fast.

Many of the boards were only about 3/4" to 7/8" thick in the middle, rough sawn.  None of these boards will clean up to 3/4" thick.  Hardwood is usually sawn at 1 1/8" thick, 1/8" over.  That 1/8" makes a huge difference once you begin to actually USE the lumber.

So, today, I visited another operation that had a huge stash of walnut lumber.  I could see right away that some of the boards that had been planed did not clean up all the way.  Then I noticed that it was sawn at 1" thick.  For furniture grade hardwood, 1" is not thick enough, especially for high quality hardwood lumber.  When quartersawing, you might need to add another 1/16" to the thickness since quartersawn lumber shrinks about twice as much in thickness as flatsawn lumber. 

I have planed tens of thousands of BF of furniture grade hardwood lumber.  1" thick rough is too thin.  By the time you plane the board and flatten it out on the jointer to get a perfectly flat board, like one you would use in a table top, there is not enough meat on the bone.

Don't Saw Too Thin when sawing furniture grade hardwood lumber unless you are a Saws Em Fast, Leaves Em Fast, Never to Return type of Sawyer. 

Sorry for the Rant  :)
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5640SU, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Offline red

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1631
  • Location: ne PA
  • Gender: Male
  • we will never forget
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2016, 10:22:36 pm »
I  can SEE what you are sayin .
We have a lot of good boys and girls in harms way
lets all support them and their familys.

Offline Glenn1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 433
  • Age: 61
  • Location: Winston Salem, NC
  • Gender: Male
  • Drying lumber one board at a time
    • GPS Hardwoods
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2016, 10:35:47 pm »
"When quartersawing, you might need to add another 1/16" to the thickness since quartersawn lumber shrinks about twice as much in thickness as flatsawn lumber."

Hi Danny,
Since quartersawing will not cup, are you saying that you would add 1/16" to the 1 1/8" or to 1". 
Nyle 53 Kiln, New Holland Skid Steer, Kaufman Gooseneck Trailer, Whitney 32A Planer

Offline Magicman

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 32192
  • Age: 73
  • Location: Brookhaven, MS
  • Gender: Male
  • A "Traveling Man"
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2016, 10:50:56 pm »
It is not unusual for Woodworkers that I saw for to specify 1 3/16" or 1".  The beauty of having some kind of Setworks is to be able to easily meet customer's dimension requests.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Offline YellowHammer

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2040
  • Age: 52
  • Location: New Market, Alabama
  • Gender: Male
    • Hobby Hardwood Alabama
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2016, 11:49:48 pm »
"When quartersawing, you might need to add another 1/16" to the thickness since quartersawn lumber shrinks about twice as much in thickness as flatsawn lumber."

Hi Danny,
Since quartersawing will not cup, are you saying that you would add 1/16" to the 1 1/8" or to 1".
I mill hardwood to 1 1/8" flat sawn and 1 3/16 QSawn.
Both will then easily skip plane to 15/16" cleaning up 100 percent of one side, better than 90% of the other. 


Hobby Hardwood Alabama.com
LT40 Diesel Hydraulic, Stihl 028, MS440, MS660, 2 Kilns

Offline Jemclimber

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 560
  • Location: wny
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2016, 07:05:25 am »
Ok, I'm happy to listen to your rant. I hope you got it off your chest and you feel better. :'( Now the question, did you buy it?  ;D
lt15

Offline DMcCoy

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 510
  • Location: NW OR
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2016, 07:29:59 am »
Listening to the rant of someone who knows what they are talking about and has the right goal is better than listening to the rant of someone trying to justify shoddy workmanship.

Offline WDH

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 25212
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Perry, GA
  • Gender: Male
  • April 1998 - August 2008
    • hamsleyhardwood.com
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2016, 07:43:54 am »
Glenn,

I meant adding the 1/16' to the 1 1/8" to get to 1 3/16" like YellowHammer said. 

Flatsawn lumber will shrink from 8 to 12%.  Quartersawn lumber about 1/2 that .  So when you quartersaw, the thickness portion of the board is the flatsawn part, and the board will shrink 8 - 12% in thickness.  For flatsawn lumber, the thickness portion of the board has the quartersawn grain orientation, and it shrinks only 4 - 6% in thickness.  That is why there is a need to quartersaw lumber a little thicker than flatsawn lumber.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5640SU, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Offline drobertson

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Age: 55
  • Location: Missouri
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2016, 07:48:01 am »
I like to hear a good rant every now and again, and its funny how different folks work. I have sawn for a few cabinet, furniture builders, and for the 1" stock, they all wanted it 1"
I will add this, they all mentioned it was only because of the flat consistency coming off the mill.
Lt-40 super Cat 51hp, smith single head resaw, 362,310 stihl, and a nice real, nice small poulan!  585D Case loader, only one dog, some kind of a mess right now, but learning.

Offline sawwood

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 753
  • Age: 71
  • Location: Independence Mo
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2016, 08:41:36 am »

 I am doing a flooring job for a customer and his lumber was milled at 1" thick. He had sticker
 it only in 3 places on a 8' length. So there was a lot of waste and did not make much flooring.
 I all ways mill to 1 1/8 or 1 1/4" to have some room to skip plane to 15/16 for the customer.

 He said he bought some Walnut and i hope he looked at it as i showed him what he needs to
 make his flooring and not have to much waste. Will see when he brings it to me this week end.

 Sawwood
Norwood M4 manual mill, Solar Kiln, Woodmaster
18" planer/molder

Offline simonlow

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 17
  • Age: 43
  • Location: pyrenees, France
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2016, 12:38:27 pm »
I never complain if asked to cut thicker, means fewer cuts for a given volume after all   :laugh:

Offline Glenn1

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 433
  • Age: 61
  • Location: Winston Salem, NC
  • Gender: Male
  • Drying lumber one board at a time
    • GPS Hardwoods
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2016, 03:57:47 pm »
Glenn,

I meant adding the 1/16' to the 1 1/8" to get to 1 3/16" like YellowHammer said. 

Flatsawn lumber will shrink from 8 to 12%.  Quartersawn lumber about 1/2 that .  So when you quartersaw, the thickness portion of the board is the flatsawn part, and the board will shrink 8 - 12% in thickness.  For flatsawn lumber, the thickness portion of the board has the quartersawn grain orientation, and it shrinks only 4 - 6% in thickness.  That is why there is a need to quartersaw lumber a little thicker than flatsawn lumber.


Thanks for the explanation.  I have been lucky.  We QS white oak to an inch and planed 1/16 off each side.  They are nice and clean at 7/8".  Next time, I will go a little thicker.
Sure glad that QS does not cup!
Nyle 53 Kiln, New Holland Skid Steer, Kaufman Gooseneck Trailer, Whitney 32A Planer

Offline longtime lurker

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 769
  • Location: QLD, Australia
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2016, 04:22:56 pm »
For finished, allowing for 8% shrinkage or less, we saw at 1".
Shrinkage out to 12% we saw at 1 3/64's ( metric guage is 26.5).

Hit and miss caused by blade wander is far less with a well tuned circle saw. Seems to me that any kerf saving you thin band guys get you give away to cutting thicker to allow for wavy cuts, and that at the end of the day in the " real world" of sawing there isn't that much yield difference either way: thin band kerf + oversaw = circle kerf.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Offline ladylake

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4394
  • Age: 64
  • Location: grey eagle mn
  • Gender: Male
  • I need to edit my profile!
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2016, 04:34:37 pm »
 
 I saw just over 1", about 1  1/32 and maybe 3 board out of a 100 won't clean up at 13/16.  At 1 - 1/8 I'd be wasting 1 in 10 boards plus way more planeing to get to 13/16.  Steve
Timberking B20 12000 hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Dino setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Offline drobertson

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Age: 55
  • Location: Missouri
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2016, 04:34:46 pm »
The whole deal on this end, even from what I've heard from the flooring folks, most cases a lighter cut is better, but not always, but for sure for the small scale builder, if the lumber is flat, and consistent, it makes for fewer passes through the planer. Time is the factor.
Lt-40 super Cat 51hp, smith single head resaw, 362,310 stihl, and a nice real, nice small poulan!  585D Case loader, only one dog, some kind of a mess right now, but learning.

Offline POSTONLT40HD

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 14067
  • Age: 60
  • Location: Rock Hill, S.C
  • Gender: Male
  • G29
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2016, 05:58:42 pm »
............. and was probably in Slam Bam, Cut-em Quick, and Clear Out mode.  Just Saws Em Fast and Leaves Em Fast.


I know somebody like this.  :D :D :D
I'm thinking......

Offline bkaimwood

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 893
  • Location: Lower Northeastern PA
  • Gender: Male
  • Life's too short to sweat the small stuff
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2016, 06:46:04 pm »
For finished, allowing for 8% shrinkage or less, we saw at 1".
Shrinkage out to 12% we saw at 1 3/64's ( metric guage is 26.5).

Hit and miss caused by blade wander is far less with a well tuned circle saw. Seems to me that any kerf saving you thin band guys get you give away to cutting thicker to allow for wavy cuts, and that at the end of the day in the " real world" of sawing there isn't that much yield difference either way: thin band kerf + oversaw = circle kerf.
No wavy cuts here...if a sawyer running a band mill has wavy cuts, he should stop and find out why, not keep sawing. I have a local furniture guy here who is extraordinary particular, and has been in business for 40 years. He religiously has used circle mills for years as his supplier, and to saw his logs....because of the same mind set, that band mills make wavy lumber. I told him I don't saw wavy lumber. I had the honor of sawing for him almost 2 years ago. I am now his sawyer, also gaining referrals from him. Bandmill kerf savings is significant. The fact remains that most circle mills will out produce most band mills.
bk

Offline ozarkgem

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1463
  • Location: SW Mo
  • Gender: Male
  • age 65 yrs old
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2016, 06:47:54 pm »
I never complain if asked to cut thicker, means fewer cuts for a given volume after all   :laugh:
Are you close to Satamax?
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.

Online paul case

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4040
  • Age: 42
  • Location: extreeme northeast Oklahoma
  • Gender: Male
  • Original wearer of the PCM.
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2016, 06:50:07 pm »

Hit and miss caused by blade wander is far less with a well tuned circle saw. Seems to me that any kerf saving you thin band guys get you give away to cutting thicker to allow for wavy cuts, and that at the end of the day in the " real world" of sawing there isn't that much yield difference either way: thin band kerf + oversaw = circle kerf.

I think this depends on how concerned with quality that the sawyer is. Either circle or band. I see the culls from the flooring plant that I sell to and there are far more miss cuts with a circle saw than with band sawn lumber in there. Most of them are too thin and never should have been sent. Blame it on the help.

However,   If a bandmiller doesnt keep the band sharp and not push it too hard they can cut very accurate. I still think that if you put my bandmill up against a circle mill mine will make an extra 4/4 board every 5 cuts of the circle saw. some circle saws can cut more in 25 minutes that my mill can in a day!

For finished, allowing for 8% shrinkage or less, we saw at 1".
Shrinkage out to 12% we saw at 1 3/64's ( metric guage is 26.5).

Hit and miss caused by blade wander is far less with a well tuned circle saw. Seems to me that any kerf saving you thin band guys get you give away to cutting thicker to allow for wavy cuts, and that at the end of the day in the " real world" of sawing there isn't that much yield difference either way: thin band kerf + oversaw = circle kerf.
No wavy cuts here...if a sawyer running a band mill has wavy cuts, he should stop and find out why, not keep sawing. I have a local furniture guy here who is extraordinary particular, and has been in business for 40 years. He religiously has used circle mills for years as his supplier, and to saw his logs....because of the same mind set, that band mills make wavy lumber. I told him I don't saw wavy lumber. I had the honor of sawing for him almost 2 years ago. I am now his sawyer, also gaining referrals from him. Bandmill kerf savings is significant. The fact remains that most circle mills will out produce most band mills.


I typed all that out and should have waited and just wrote SAME.

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and 3 blade Baker edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

Offline ozarkgem

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1463
  • Location: SW Mo
  • Gender: Male
  • age 65 yrs old
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2016, 06:51:11 pm »
I bought about 3000 bf of Walnut and Oak last spring that had been circle sawed. Lots of it was 3/4. Even the 1" was pretty rough. Paid 600 for it and sold it the next day for 1500. The guy made pic frames so thickness was not a issue. Not all of it was bad. It was misrepresented to me so I lowballed. It was 5 mile from also.
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.

Offline ozarkgem

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1463
  • Location: SW Mo
  • Gender: Male
  • age 65 yrs old
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2016, 06:55:31 pm »

Hit and miss caused by blade wander is far less with a well tuned circle saw. Seems to me that any kerf saving you thin band guys get you give away to cutting thicker to allow for wavy cuts, and that at the end of the day in the " real world" of sawing there isn't that much yield difference either way: thin band kerf + oversaw = circle kerf.

I think this depends on how concerned with quality that the sawyer is. Either circle or band. I see the culls from the flooring plant that I sell to and there are far more miss cuts with a circle saw than with band sawn lumber in there. Most of them are too thin and never should have been sent. Blame it on the help.

However,   If a bandmiller doesnt keep the band sharp and not push it too hard they can cut very accurate. I still think that if you put my bandmill up against a circle mill mine will make an extra 4/4 board every 5 cuts of the circle saw. some circle saws can cut more in 25 minutes that my mill can in a day!

For finished, allowing for 8% shrinkage or less, we saw at 1".
Shrinkage out to 12% we saw at 1 3/64's ( metric guage is 26.5).

Hit and miss caused by blade wander is far less with a well tuned circle saw. Seems to me that any kerf saving you thin band guys get you give away to cutting thicker to allow for wavy cuts, and that at the end of the day in the " real world" of sawing there isn't that much yield difference either way: thin band kerf + oversaw = circle kerf.
No wavy cuts here...if a sawyer running a band mill has wavy cuts, he should stop and find out why, not keep sawing. I have a local furniture guy here who is extraordinary particular, and has been in business for 40 years. He religiously has used circle mills for years as his supplier, and to saw his logs....because of the same mind set, that band mills make wavy lumber. I told him I don't saw wavy lumber. I had the honor of sawing for him almost 2 years ago. I am now his sawyer, also gaining referrals from him. Bandmill kerf savings is significant. The fact remains that most circle mills will out produce most band mills.


I typed all that out and should have waited and just wrote SAME.

PC
Very few wavy cuts here unless dull and pushing. Certainly not enough to worry about. I set the saw on 1" and it cuts the board 15/16. No trouble cleaning up to 3/4. Pretty accurate. BTW I love circle saws.
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.

Offline ladylake

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4394
  • Age: 64
  • Location: grey eagle mn
  • Gender: Male
  • I need to edit my profile!
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2016, 08:19:09 pm »
 
 If I make 1 wavy cut I put on a sharp blade or find out why.  Steve
Timberking B20 12000 hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Dino setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Offline pineywoods

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4712
  • Age: 80
  • Location: Marion, Louisiana
  • Gender: Male
  • Engineering analysis-just sittin thinkin about it
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2016, 08:37:50 pm »

 If I make 1 wavy cut I put on a sharp blade or find out why.  Steve
Same here, I allow myself no more than 1 wavy cut...99.9% it's the blade...
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club

Offline ozarkgem

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1463
  • Location: SW Mo
  • Gender: Male
  • age 65 yrs old
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2016, 09:07:03 pm »

 If I make 1 wavy cut I put on a sharp blade or find out why.  Steve
Same here, I allow myself no more than 1 wavy cut...99.9% it's the blade...
X3
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.

Offline Larry

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5499
  • Age: 68
  • Location: NW Arkansas
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2016, 09:39:57 pm »
The online Shrinkulator calculator is a good tool for figuring shrinkage.  I input an initial MC of 40% and final moisture content of 8% for quarter sawing white oak.  Initial thickness of 1.  Final quarter sawn thickness after drying of .89" which is close to 7/8.  No meat left to do any planing for cleanup and have a board that meets standard thickness requirements.

When I first started sawing, I cut at 1-1/6 thick when plain sawing and was proud that my lumber would clean up most of the time at 13/16 thick.  But than I started to notice on my perfect, not a pimple 12 and wider boards a few were not cleaning up at 13/16 thick.  Only seemed to happen on those perfect boards that would bring a premium because they were wider than 12.  The cause could be traced to cupping during drying. 

After putting pencil to paper the economics said saw 1-1/8 thick and I would be happy and no longer loose a FAS wide board.  And to those who think they can get an extra board by sawing thin....that extra board comes out of the heart in most logs and is probably 3c.

These days I don't sell much lumber so I normally saw 4/4 at 1-3/16" or even 1-1/4" as I've found I like using thicker material when building my projects. 
Larry

Nine out of ten trees recommend wood for your building project.

Offline flatrock58

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 265
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Carrollton Ga
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2016, 09:49:24 pm »
My last batch of QS red oak was cut at 1 1/8".  I have built a couple of project that I really wanted to use 1" boards, but most of the boards cleaned up at 7/8".  I will be cutting 1 1/4" for QS from now on.
2001 LT40 Super Kubota 42
6' extension
resaw attachment
CBN Sharpener
Piney Woods modified Dual tooth setter.

Offline hopm

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 89
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2016, 10:29:37 pm »
i use to saw at 4/4......had too many that planed too thin.....I started sawing everthing at 5/4...I'm willing to sacrifice the extra usable cut to not lose the whole board

Offline customsawyer

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4548
  • Age: 48
  • Location: Rentz, Ga.
  • Gender: Male
    • The Custom Sawyer
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2016, 03:39:24 am »
Anytime you want to see how well you're sawing first dry your lumber in a kiln and then run it through a planer. These next two steps don't let you get away with much.
Two LT70s and to much other support equipment to mention.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

Offline WDH

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 25212
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Perry, GA
  • Gender: Male
  • April 1998 - August 2008
    • hamsleyhardwood.com
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2016, 08:01:31 am »
OK.  I am thinking about this issue from a furniture maker's perspective.  Sure, you can saw at 1" and clean up to 3/4", get that extra board, etc.  However, out of all the boards in a kiln load that are being planed and offered for sale, how many of the boards are gun barrel straight so that they merely have to be planed to final thickness and be used to make a table top, or chest of drawer top, or for any other piece of furniture that requires a flat, wider panel?  Just because a board is 3/4" thick and cleaned up on both sides does not make it suitable for use in making furniture or many other wood working projects.  Who wants a bow in their table?

The key word here is FLAT.  To build furniture you need flat components.  Most of the time, you need a jointer to flatten every board perfectly FLAT, then finish plane it.  I am not talking barn siding or paneling or flooring here. Those are different animals. 

My initial comments in this thread were aimed at furniture grade hardwood lumber.  They were also aimed at walnut and other high quality, furniture grade hardwoods which will be used to make furniture.  You can saw at 1", kiln dry to 8%, and get furniture grade results for full length boards for maybe half the boards in a pack.  With the rest, you can get some short pieces that will clean up and be straight enough, but there will be a significant amount where there is not enough meat on the bones to take out any imperfections like bow, twist, or warp.  And, I mean the slightest bow or twist. Flat has to be FLAT.

I shoot for 15/16" thick, fully planed boards that the woodworking customer can take and use a jointer to flatten the boards perfectly flat and then have enough to finish plane the board to 13/16" with 3/4" being the minimum.

Even though I was not clear in the title to this thread that it related to the highest end uses of hardwood lumber, this has been an informative discussion. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5640SU, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Offline scsmith42

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4255
  • Age: 57
  • Location: New Hill, NC
  • Gender: Male
  • He who dies with the most toys... WINS!!!
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2016, 11:25:12 am »
Danny, you and I think alike and serve similar customer needs. 

When milling, unless we know that it's for "barn wood" we are milling all furniture grade boards wider than 6" as 5/4 dry stock.  That way if they don't fully S2S at 1" we know that they will clean up at 3/4 or 7/8.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Offline Ron Wenrich

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13059
  • Age: 68
  • Location: Jonestown, PA
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2016, 12:02:08 pm »
I've sawn millions of bf for the commercial grade market.  Most buyers have a spec for the thickness, and it's sawn plump.  That means they won't take anything under 1/8" overage, and a bit thicker on the heavier markets like 8/4 and up.  It was always disheartening to see lumber go from FAS or Common to pallet due to thickness.  You can loose major dollars real quick in a load.  If the lumber continues to be too thin, you'll lose the customer.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline longtime lurker

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 769
  • Location: QLD, Australia
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2016, 05:57:35 pm »

I set out several years ago to be the best in the business. Not saying I'm there yet but I'm getting therein terms of quality of output. My goal is to send to market the best board I can make out of a given log: a board thats straight, flat, and dimensionally accurate. Colour and grain is Gods business, but in terms of what I can control I do everything in my power to make it as good as I can. I think its working - in the last 12 months we've supplied timber direct ex mill or had product with timber ex this mill go into every mainland Australian state, the USA, Germany, UK, Japan, Israel and who knows where else. I dont want to be a big sawmiller with 50 guys running around, but I do need to keep a roof over the heads of wife and kids and if I cant do that with volume then I have to do it with quality.

As part of that I had to look real hard at just what it takes to cut a good board and keep it that way. It's a whole of greenmill process. The boards coming off the mill have to be flat with no thick and thin. Theres always a bit - but my tolerance for thick and thin before I start looking for a problem is +/- 1mm, or 3/64"s for you imperial types. I dont worry about 3/64's in one board, but if I see it in three in a row i start looking for why. If there is excessive thickness the board goes sideways and gets put through the thicknesser to remove the thick at least prior to going in the pack, if its scant it gets put in the middle of the pack rather then the edges so the stickers lay flat and it doesnt distort the row of boards above it. I keep my saws sharp and tuned - if I'm seeing "circle saw"marks then its an issue. The marks are there obviously, but those big gouges that an out of whack circle gives are meat wasted when its time to dress a board clean.

Then its about how lumber is stripped out for drying. Thicknessed stickers, even packs, pack weights. I havent seen a board cupped that badly that it wouldnt make finished (and finished means flat) outside the top four rows of a top of the heap pack for a couple of years. I'm not saying that theres no cup... but if the boards themselves are even thickness in the pack, and the stickers are even thickness, and the stickers are vertically aligned through the packs and close enough together - well theres a lot of pressure on the boards in there from above and if they want to cup they got to work for it. As of last year we never put boards wider then 6"in the top rows either. Because when I could see cupped wider boards in the top of the pack and flat wider ones 5 rows down... it wasnt rocket science.

Then its about the initial air drying. I dont have much of the stain or fungal issues you guys do so I can bring them down nice and steady. Rapid early drying might be great for getting white lumber to market white but its also great for making it pull into circles. If we're doing species where stain is an issue now all boards get a swim in anti fungal treatment so I can still dry slow initially. Its a cost, and its a pain... but worthwhile.

But above all the driver of this has been sawing tolerances, because you can do everything else right but if the lumber isnt even going into a pack then it aint going to somehow get remarkably better coming out. Repeatable accuracy has become my most important consideration in equipment for that reason.  We run " TCT or stellite teeth on the circle resaws. I'd like to go to a band for the kerf saving but to get that kerf saving with my accuracy goal would require a band of minimum 6" width and more better if it was 8". Wide bands cut straighter, its a fact.

Wide bands also tend to have things like hob feeds, hydraulic sizing, and linebar positioning systems as well, and thats the important stuff. When you size by dropping an inch off the last cut its kind of empirical because the issue is did the log/flitch/cant stay flat after the last cut? It can be hard to tell when we're talking about 1/8" lift from tension over 16' in the log with sawdust spread everywhere and a sawmill running. I far prefer positive sizing where the thickness sawn is the distance between the saw and a fence and the cant/flitch passes through it. I can saw a bend in for sure - I've seen it before where the boards are bowed from end to end but perfect for thickness because the operator didnt bother to run a shim or face cut as required. But my experience also tells me that even then I have more hope of pressing that bowed board back to flat in a stack then I do of getting thick and thin lumber to dry flat in the same stack.

Thick and thin lumber is the absolute worst thing in a drying stack because not only is that board not good, but its making every board above in the stack distort to its shape as well. You can dry a bend in just as easy as you can dry one out.

The other thing of course is the recovery increase. I run circle resaws with " kerf, which to my mind is the same as a band with a 1/8" kerf that requires 1/8" of oversaw to get the same flat board to market. I just make my sawdust in the greenmill not the drymill. Now if I could get that 1/8" kerf without the need for oversaw then that IS a real kerf saving. I really dont want the headaches of a big band filing room though... of late this combination of factors is whats pushing me to really look at sash gang resaws as an option to replace the circle resaw.

Great topic Danny - and one I,m rather passionate about as you can see.

 


The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Offline ozarkgem

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1463
  • Location: SW Mo
  • Gender: Male
  • age 65 yrs old
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2016, 06:36:21 pm »
1" works fine on my Cedar. The only time they don't clean up is blade dip.
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.

Offline thecfarm

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 24337
  • Age: 55
  • Location: Chesterville,Maine
  • Gender: Male
  • If I don't do it,it don't get done
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2016, 06:55:23 pm »
I do not saw for furniture makers. Just for me. BUT if I was sawing for furniture makers.I would be listening to WDH. And If I ever do saw for furniture makers I will remember what WDH posted.  ;)
The proof is in some of his past posts.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Offline Peter Drouin

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 6939
  • Location: New Hampshire
  • Gender: Male
    • Sanbornton Construction L.L.C.
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2016, 07:51:31 pm »
I'm With WDH, Cut fat.  ;D
2008 LT40 super, And can cut up to 45' long
http://www.forestryforum.com/sanbornton     NH Timberland Owners Association supporter.
And a license NH soft wood grader.
Sawing since 1987

Offline Waterford Woodworks

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 46
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Indiana
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2016, 09:50:03 pm »
Out of curiosity, when you sell, say a board that is 12 inches wide 8 feet long and 1 1/8" thick, are you selling that as 8 board feet or 9 board feet? If I have a log that has 200 board feet in it and I saw it at 1 1/8", then i am only able to sell 177 board feet. I'm not against the idea but may have to reconsider my selling price or what i might pay for logs. There are so many years of experience on this forum and i appreciate it being handed down like grandma's secret recipe.
2006 Lt40 Super Cat 51, Allis Chalmers 185
"Keep doing what your doing and you'll keep getting what your getting, life is what you make of it."

Online paul case

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4040
  • Age: 42
  • Location: extreeme northeast Oklahoma
  • Gender: Male
  • Original wearer of the PCM.
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2016, 10:31:19 pm »
The way it works where I sell at is 1 1/8''+ is 4/4. =1''.

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and 3 blade Baker edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

Offline YellowHammer

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2040
  • Age: 52
  • Location: New Market, Alabama
  • Gender: Male
    • Hobby Hardwood Alabama
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2016, 11:31:25 pm »
Out of curiosity, when you sell, say a board that is 12 inches wide 8 feet long and 1 1/8" thick, are you selling that as 8 board feet or 9 board feet? If I have a log that has 200 board feet in it and I saw it at 1 1/8", then i am only able to sell 177 board feet. I'm not against the idea but may have to reconsider my selling price or what i might pay for logs. There are so many years of experience on this forum and i appreciate it being handed down like grandma's secret recipe.
The significant increased value (selling price) of the the thicker board will more that cover the increase in wood used. 
For example, I flat saw white oak to standard hardwood 4/4 of 1 1/8", dry it to 1 1/16" and plane it to 15/16".  Things have to be pretty tight and right on the mill to saw flat enough where I only have to take a 1/16" off each side of a board to get it planed.  This nominal 1 inch thick board is a lot more desireble to a customer than a 3/4" inch board so sells for a higher price.  So, by having the mill dialed in and cutting precisely flat, I gain the extra up-charge in price with no increase in wood sawn.  So flat sawing = profit increase.  By the same token, we have guys around here who also saw to 1 1/8" and struggle to get a fully planed board at 3/4".

In the case of quarter sawn white oak, I get almost a 40% increase in sales price, and also sell it at the thicker, planed 15/16".  I only need to increase my cutting depth 1/16" to get a nicely planed 15/16" board.  When considering the added collateral waste of quarter sawn wood anyway, adding that 1/16" drop is a minimal consideration.   
Hobby Hardwood Alabama.com
LT40 Diesel Hydraulic, Stihl 028, MS440, MS660, 2 Kilns

Offline Ron Wenrich

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13059
  • Age: 68
  • Location: Jonestown, PA
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2016, 05:40:46 am »
Commercial sales is by the nominal foot.  That's pretty much the industry standard.  For grading purposes, they use a grade stick that has the surface measure marked on it.  At the half foot mark is where they change the amount of footage in the board.  Some of the boards go up a bit in volume, and some may go down.  That number is also used in figuring out grade.  Volume is then figured by the surface measure x nominal thickness.

If you're trying to squeeze footage by charging for that additional overage, you may be higher priced than your competition.  Do you charge less for a 2x4 that is cut scant?
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline 4x4American

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4689
  • Age: 25
  • Location: SE Adirondacks USA
  • Gender: Male
  • Go saw it
    • Website Link
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2016, 05:50:33 am »
Yes this is a good thread,  I got my lesson on this awhile back when I sold some walnut to a local hardwood place.  I cut it 2" thick, didnt think to add 1/4".  He told me about it lol 
LT40HDSD35-RA
Cooks AE344P
Clark CFY-70
Caterpillar 420E IT

Offline WDH

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 25212
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Perry, GA
  • Gender: Male
  • April 1998 - August 2008
    • hamsleyhardwood.com
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2016, 07:39:07 am »
Out of curiosity, when you sell, say a board that is 12 inches wide 8 feet long and 1 1/8" thick, are you selling that as 8 board feet or 9 board feet?

8 board feet.  The Industry standard board foot for rough sawn hardwood lumber being sold into the hardwood market is 12" long  x 12" wide x 1 1/8" thick.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5640SU, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Offline jmouton

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 514
  • Age: 48
  • Location: new boston, michigan
  • Gender: Male
  • never enough time
    • Log-Gistics
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2016, 09:16:20 pm »
danny ,    i will try to retain all this info,    i make no guarantee  that ill remember this next time we talk ;D




                                                                                                  jim
lt-25 woodmizer,24 honda,hyd loading,fiat tractor,bobcat,international flatbed,10 ton trailer, stihl 075,041,029,and a couple 3 f-250 pick-up trucks 99,00,09 grapple system coming soon!!

Online sandsawmill14

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2615
  • Age: 44
  • Location: tn
  • Gender: Male
  • love my job (most days)
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2016, 10:54:12 pm »
got my new price list today and it plainly states prices are 4/4 sawn 1 1/8 thick :)
hudson 228, timberking b20, s&w 125 ,lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Offline hopm

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 89
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2016, 11:28:30 pm »
I cut 5/4 as 1"
I want to be sure the man who takes it home gets more and better than he expected

Offline drobertson

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 7574
  • Age: 55
  • Location: Missouri
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2016, 10:58:53 am »
When I first mentioned sawing 1" flat and consistent, it needs to be mentioned this was custom sawing customers logs.  They had their reasons, I just met their requirements
When dealing with whole sale buyers, rest assured they have
Requirements, and hold to them, for flooring around here, 1-1/8" is the norm. 
Lt-40 super Cat 51hp, smith single head resaw, 362,310 stihl, and a nice real, nice small poulan!  585D Case loader, only one dog, some kind of a mess right now, but learning.

Offline scsmith42

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4255
  • Age: 57
  • Location: New Hill, NC
  • Gender: Male
  • He who dies with the most toys... WINS!!!
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #45 on: September 30, 2016, 11:15:00 pm »
It really comes down to if you sell on "green measure" or "dry measure".  Personally I use dry measure, which means that a 1-7/16" green quartersawn oak board is measured as a 5/4 board.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Offline Bruno of NH

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1251
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Springfield NH
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #46 on: October 01, 2016, 07:19:58 pm »
I have some birds eye and curly maple I bought before I had my mill it was sawn poorly and most under an inch .
I use it but for select things because of the thickness
thomas 8013 mill ,Massey 1560 cab tractor loader backhoe Dump trailer and equipment trailer and lot of contracting tools

Offline Cazzhrdwd

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 246
  • Location: Maryland
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #47 on: October 01, 2016, 08:30:12 pm »
I mostly cut long lumber and after 20 years of sawing I rarely get thick and thin boards. And the industry around here has always been at 1 1/8 for 4/4. A finely tuned band mill will cut perfectly flat and straight boards. Sawing pallet wood with a circle mill is one thing, but I can't imagine cutting Walnut, Cherry or even Oak with one. All I would see is dollar signs looking at the sawdust pile.

96 Woodmizer LT40Super  Woodmizer 5 head moulder

Offline 4x4American

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4689
  • Age: 25
  • Location: SE Adirondacks USA
  • Gender: Male
  • Go saw it
    • Website Link
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2016, 10:44:13 pm »
Thick and thin is from stress; a finely tuned bandmill goes a long way, but if you aren't watching for movement and trim cutting + stress relieving on the correct face you'll have thick and thin lumber.
LT40HDSD35-RA
Cooks AE344P
Clark CFY-70
Caterpillar 420E IT

Offline 5quarter

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1672
  • Location: Springfield NE
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2016, 11:20:30 pm »
Roger that... ;)

Stress is the enemy of a flat board. and often with crappy logs, I have to take several skim cuts from one log to get good lumber. I saw most everything on the 5/4 scale for a finished, nominal size of 7/8" to 1", as many of my logs are junk compared to the beauties some of you guys get. I saw 95% for furniture grade and like WDH, I go for as few culls as possible. Although if I do have lumber that won't make 3/4" I simply take it down to 5/8", as I use a lot of that thickness as well.
What is this leisure time of which you speak?

Offline Waterford Woodworks

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 46
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Indiana
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #50 on: October 03, 2016, 01:51:25 pm »
Well... I can see the advantage of sawing a little thicker. 1 and 1/8 will become my new standard. Now I know everyone is different but what would be the allowance for say stress relief. + or - 1/16?  Thanks for the input everyone.
2006 Lt40 Super Cat 51, Allis Chalmers 185
"Keep doing what your doing and you'll keep getting what your getting, life is what you make of it."

Offline Magicman

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 32192
  • Age: 73
  • Location: Brookhaven, MS
  • Gender: Male
  • A "Traveling Man"
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #51 on: October 03, 2016, 02:50:51 pm »
Stress has to be relieved as you are sawing, and it would not be a predictably measurable amount.  I have seen a cant raise " or more during one pass.   :o
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Offline 4x4American

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4689
  • Age: 25
  • Location: SE Adirondacks USA
  • Gender: Male
  • Go saw it
    • Website Link
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #52 on: October 03, 2016, 05:12:00 pm »
Stress has to be relieved as you are sawing, and it would not be a predictably measurable amount.  I have seen a cant raise " or more during one pass.   :o


1/4" is nothing, one time I had a hickory cant reach out and swat me and then it reached my key and shut the mill off.  No kidding, eh?
LT40HDSD35-RA
Cooks AE344P
Clark CFY-70
Caterpillar 420E IT

Offline WDH

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 25212
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Perry, GA
  • Gender: Male
  • April 1998 - August 2008
    • hamsleyhardwood.com
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #53 on: April 20, 2017, 08:05:04 am »
Had a customer come looking for some wood.  She said that she went to buy some cedar from another sawyer, but it was sawn at 3/4" thick  :-\.  Maybe suitable for lining a closet, but how good is the cedar closet lining market?
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5640SU, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Offline sawwood

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 753
  • Age: 71
  • Location: Independence Mo
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #54 on: April 20, 2017, 04:32:42 pm »

 I picked up a cherry log over the week end and the customer had a small cherry log and a ash log he wanted cut.
 He said he wanted it cut to 1" and i asked what size he wanted after dry and planed. He said 3/4" and i said we
 needed to cut to 1 1/8" so he would have enough to make 3/4 lumber. After i deliver his lumber he said is that
 why i could not git 3/4 with what other sawyer cut my logs. I said did you asked for 1" and he said yes, didn't
 the sawyer tell you about cutting thicker, he said no. We all ways cut to 1 1/8" or more if asked to.

 Sawwood.
Norwood M4 manual mill, Solar Kiln, Woodmaster
18" planer/molder

Online sandsawmill14

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2615
  • Age: 44
  • Location: tn
  • Gender: Male
  • love my job (most days)
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #55 on: April 20, 2017, 06:45:56 pm »
Had a customer come looking for some wood.  She said that she went to buy some cedar from another sawyer, but it was sawn at 3/4" thick  :-\.  Maybe suitable for lining a closet, but how good is the cedar closet lining market?
i dont understand peoples thinking about cedar  ::) i have been told to saw it on 1" or even 3/4" several times by guys who have a pile of cedar post ( not saw logs ) and these guys are wanting to sell the lumber  :o the guys who are wanting the lumber to use themselves know how they want it cut and why so i cut how they want it  :) but those other guys think they have a gold mine and try to cheat the guy they are wanting to sell to by cutting it to thin  smiley_dizzy think_not dadgum you, Charlie! no_no now i just tell them im not interested and go fishing ;)  by the way we caught 38 keepers tuesday night 8)
hudson 228, timberking b20, s&w 125 ,lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Offline longtime lurker

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 769
  • Location: QLD, Australia
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #56 on: April 20, 2017, 07:49:35 pm »
I think...

As a general rule here I work on finished thickness + " with a variation for shrinkage. So if we're cutting flooring material I sit on 1", material for cabinet/joinery application which is normally 7/8"finished here I sit on 1 1/8. If I'm factoring in shrinkage in excess of 5% I'll add 1 mm to it.

Sawing fatter then that is insurance. There's a cost to doing so and its not just scavenging an extra board here and there its also the cost of drying extra thickness and then removing it in the drymill. Against which the penalty for thin is stiff.... if I saw an inch board and it doesnt make a finished floorboard the next size down for me is panelling at ... and thats a lot of wasted meat: Wasted wood, wasted kiln time, and increased wear on the moulders.
Same with cabinet and joinery timbers that dont make 7/8... the price drop to is significant.

So the real question is "how much insurance do you need?" And the answer to that will vary depending on the equipment choices you make because some equipment saws more accurately then others. Some operators can drive a saw better then others. And it will vary depending on the attention to detail a sawyer has behind the saw with regard stacking and stickering and storage.

One thing I will say is that I have been able to do it differently then most. I've built a customer base for our value added stuff thats mostly direct ex mill without an agent/buyer in the middle. And because I dont have to hit the middle mans spec for thickness which is based around the lowest common denominator it has pushed me to look at all this. If I had an agent between me and customer then I would just sit on 1 or whatever number he wanted too. I don't have that agent, my spec is customer derived, and if I think I can saw thinner and get a bad result then the only one who loses out is me because I got to cut another lot to fill the same order.

Jake pinned it at the start: if you want to know how good you saw, kiln it and dress it after. And if you saw and store good and you find that you're dressing off excess all the time then why not reduce the insurance?

The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Offline WDH

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 25212
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Perry, GA
  • Gender: Male
  • April 1998 - August 2008
    • hamsleyhardwood.com
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #57 on: April 20, 2017, 08:46:06 pm »
Sometimes it is necessary to get a finished board that is thicker than 3/4", like 7/8" for face frames or for tops of chests and such.  Sawing at 1" rough gives you little flexibility beyond 3/4".  It also sets me apart from the Big Box Stores as their lumber is all at 3/4" thick or a bit thinner. 

Also, good quality furniture requires boards that are dead FLAT.  Sometimes you have to joint some bow out then plane and that is where the 1 1/8" board really gives you the flexibility that you need. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5640SU, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Online sandsawmill14

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2615
  • Age: 44
  • Location: tn
  • Gender: Male
  • love my job (most days)
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #58 on: April 20, 2017, 10:44:26 pm »
^^^^ what he said ;D  lurkers wood could dry different from ours  ???   but getting the cup out of a board that is sawn at 1 1/8 is cutting it close if its over 8" wide to finish at 3/4 and no way to get 7/8  :( and the wider the board the worse it gets ::)
hudson 228, timberking b20, s&w 125 ,lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Offline longtime lurker

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 769
  • Location: QLD, Australia
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #59 on: April 21, 2017, 06:53:55 am »
Cup will change the numbers for sure if you allow it to happen.

So don't let it cup. Problem solved.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Offline YellowHammer

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2040
  • Age: 52
  • Location: New Market, Alabama
  • Gender: Male
    • Hobby Hardwood Alabama
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #60 on: April 21, 2017, 07:02:22 am »
Cup will change the numbers for sure if you allow it to happen.

So don't let it cup. Problem solved.
Also, cup can be controlled, to some extent, by the sawing pattern.  Or conversely, it can be made much more likely, and much worse, with incorrect sawing patterns.
Hobby Hardwood Alabama.com
LT40 Diesel Hydraulic, Stihl 028, MS440, MS660, 2 Kilns

Offline D6c

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 62
  • Location: Southern IA
  • I'm new!
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #61 on: April 21, 2017, 09:47:49 am »
Interesting thread, especially since there isn't much of an established furniture lumber market here (that I know of).
I've got about 60 walnut logs (small to med.) right now that I'm unsure how I want to saw them.

The original scale on my LT40 only allowed 1/6" inch for blade kerf and 4/4 was under 1" so I made another scale allowing 0.1" so 4/4 measures a full 1" 
From reading this thread it sounds like need to make up another scale that will make 4/4 lumber at 1 1/8".

....A setworks would make things a lot easier.

Offline Darrel

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1035
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Sprague River, Oregon
  • Gender: Male
  • Gettin' it done!
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #62 on: April 21, 2017, 12:29:42 pm »
I have found from personal experience that there is nothing worse than not having the wood I needed to complete the project I had in mind.

I WILL NEVER SKIMP AGAIN!!!
1992 LT40HD

The winds of change are blowing at hurricane force and I don't like it but good shall come even though I see not how.

Offline WDH

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 25212
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Perry, GA
  • Gender: Male
  • April 1998 - August 2008
    • hamsleyhardwood.com
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #63 on: April 21, 2017, 03:52:45 pm »
From reading this thread it sounds like need to make up another scale that will make 4/4 lumber at 1 1/8".

Yes, especially for walnut. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5640SU, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Offline barbender

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4778
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Deer River MN
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #64 on: April 21, 2017, 09:55:27 pm »
The scale on my WM has a regular quarter scale on one side, and a hardwood scale on the other where the 4/4 is 1 1/8" if I remember right (97 model).
Too many irons in the fire

Offline Larry

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5499
  • Age: 68
  • Location: NW Arkansas
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #65 on: April 21, 2017, 10:13:23 pm »
Had a customer come looking for some wood.  She said that she went to buy some cedar from another sawyer, but it was sawn at 3/4" thick  :-\.  Maybe suitable for lining a closet, but how good is the cedar closet lining market?

I've sold quite a bit of 3/4" cedar.  Yes, closet lining, paneling, siding, and craft items.  Next best seller is 10/4 for outside stuff.

I'm sometimes amazed at what sells. :D
Larry

Nine out of ten trees recommend wood for your building project.

Offline YellowHammer

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2040
  • Age: 52
  • Location: New Market, Alabama
  • Gender: Male
    • Hobby Hardwood Alabama
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #66 on: April 21, 2017, 11:04:32 pm »
I'm trying another experiment.  A local mill had a whole stack of miscut thin cedar boards.  Waste of lumber for them, opportunity for me.  I bought about 800 bdft for almost nothing, dried and planed it to 1/2" on one side.  Rough sawn one side, planed the other.  We seem to have at least one customer a week ask for this, so now we can point them to the stack and hope they bite.  This is why the topic is so relevant as "sawing too thin" affects the big mills as well as us little guys. 
Hobby Hardwood Alabama.com
LT40 Diesel Hydraulic, Stihl 028, MS440, MS660, 2 Kilns

Online sandsawmill14

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2615
  • Age: 44
  • Location: tn
  • Gender: Male
  • love my job (most days)
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #67 on: April 22, 2017, 12:17:10 am »
to thin is a major problem for commercial lumber i had a tt load of poplar ( 12 mbdft ) because it was a 1 5/8 instead of 1 11/16 :o >:( ::) but they told me the spec beforehand so... smiley_dunce it was on me not them ::) when they give you a min spec its the min :( :D :D :D
hudson 228, timberking b20, s&w 125 ,lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Offline plowboyswr

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 396
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Carthage, Missouri
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #68 on: April 22, 2017, 01:36:56 am »
Got caught by a buddy's daughter at church a few weeks ago. She says Uncle Steve we are replacing the floor in our house can you bring your truck over so we can load up the debris to haul off. She bats them puppy dog eyes at me gives me a hug the best she can with her pregnant belly in the way so what was I to say.  Yeah, I go, we load up their old carpet and some other junk. Then she says can you help carry in the new flooring. Oh all right. We step into the garage and there sits a bundle of Cedar. That they are going to use for flooring. The "lumber" measures out at a whopping 3/8" thick with tongue and groove that are about 3/16" thick surface planed and sanded. 2 and 1/2" wide random length with nothing over 2' long. My jaw was scraping the ground. You're not seriously using this for flooring I remember saying. Yep we are her husband replies. He has put it down and it looks good but we shall see how it holds up. It takes all kinds!  ::)
Just an ole farm boy takin one day at a time.
Steve

Offline thecfarm

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 24337
  • Age: 55
  • Location: Chesterville,Maine
  • Gender: Male
  • If I don't do it,it don't get done
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #69 on: April 22, 2017, 06:16:47 am »
The cedar here would not last long.
I can see 1/2 inch cedar for a liner for a closet. Would want something behind it too.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Offline kelLOGg

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1671
  • Age: 72
  • Location: Durham, NC
  • Gender: Male
  • Still learning more than I'm teaching
Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #70 on: April 22, 2017, 08:07:11 am »
I planed hickory to 3/4" and planned to have it T&Ged for flooring in our house. I took it to a local woodwork shop that said their process required planning and T&Ging in one step. GLUP! I didn't know this. I accepted it at 9/16" and installed it with backer board under it to match the level of existing flooring. It looks great after 10 years. For subsequent flooring I saved a step and omitted the planing.
Cook's MP-32, 16HP, 20' (modified w/ power feed, up/down, loader/turner)
DH kiln, CatClaw, tandem trailer, log arches, trailer, hammer