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Author Topic: Sawing Too Thin  (Read 4998 times)

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Offline WDH

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Sawing Too Thin
« on: September 26, 2016, 09:58:03 pm »
Had a guy that wanted to sell me 1500 BF of walnut that had been sawn a couple of years ago and air dried.  The problem was that the sawyer sawed the boards 1" thick.  To add to that, it was sawn poorly, with a lot of the boards too thick on the ends and not thick enough in the middle.  It was clear that the sawyer did not pay much attention to quality and consistency, did not manage stress in the cant well, and was probably in Slam Bam, Cut-em Quick, and Clear Out mode.  Just Saws Em Fast and Leaves Em Fast.

Many of the boards were only about 3/4" to 7/8" thick in the middle, rough sawn.  None of these boards will clean up to 3/4" thick.  Hardwood is usually sawn at 1 1/8" thick, 1/8" over.  That 1/8" makes a huge difference once you begin to actually USE the lumber.

So, today, I visited another operation that had a huge stash of walnut lumber.  I could see right away that some of the boards that had been planed did not clean up all the way.  Then I noticed that it was sawn at 1" thick.  For furniture grade hardwood, 1" is not thick enough, especially for high quality hardwood lumber.  When quartersawing, you might need to add another 1/16" to the thickness since quartersawn lumber shrinks about twice as much in thickness as flatsawn lumber. 

I have planed tens of thousands of BF of furniture grade hardwood lumber.  1" thick rough is too thin.  By the time you plane the board and flatten it out on the jointer to get a perfectly flat board, like one you would use in a table top, there is not enough meat on the bone.

Don't Saw Too Thin when sawing furniture grade hardwood lumber unless you are a Saws Em Fast, Leaves Em Fast, Never to Return type of Sawyer. 

Sorry for the Rant  :)
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Offline red

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Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2016, 10:22:36 pm »
I  can SEE what you are sayin .
We have a lot of good boys and girls in harms way
lets all support them and their familys.

Offline Glenn1

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Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2016, 10:35:47 pm »
"When quartersawing, you might need to add another 1/16" to the thickness since quartersawn lumber shrinks about twice as much in thickness as flatsawn lumber."

Hi Danny,
Since quartersawing will not cup, are you saying that you would add 1/16" to the 1 1/8" or to 1". 
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Offline Magicman

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Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2016, 10:50:56 pm »
It is not unusual for Woodworkers that I saw for to specify 1 3/16" or 1".  The beauty of having some kind of Setworks is to be able to easily meet customer's dimension requests.
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Offline YellowHammer

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Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2016, 11:49:48 pm »
"When quartersawing, you might need to add another 1/16" to the thickness since quartersawn lumber shrinks about twice as much in thickness as flatsawn lumber."

Hi Danny,
Since quartersawing will not cup, are you saying that you would add 1/16" to the 1 1/8" or to 1".
I mill hardwood to 1 1/8" flat sawn and 1 3/16 QSawn.
Both will then easily skip plane to 15/16" cleaning up 100 percent of one side, better than 90% of the other. 


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Offline Jemclimber

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Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2016, 07:05:25 am »
Ok, I'm happy to listen to your rant. I hope you got it off your chest and you feel better. :'( Now the question, did you buy it?  ;D
lt15

Offline DMcCoy

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Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2016, 07:29:59 am »
Listening to the rant of someone who knows what they are talking about and has the right goal is better than listening to the rant of someone trying to justify shoddy workmanship.

Offline WDH

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Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2016, 07:43:54 am »
Glenn,

I meant adding the 1/16' to the 1 1/8" to get to 1 3/16" like YellowHammer said. 

Flatsawn lumber will shrink from 8 to 12%.  Quartersawn lumber about 1/2 that .  So when you quartersaw, the thickness portion of the board is the flatsawn part, and the board will shrink 8 - 12% in thickness.  For flatsawn lumber, the thickness portion of the board has the quartersawn grain orientation, and it shrinks only 4 - 6% in thickness.  That is why there is a need to quartersaw lumber a little thicker than flatsawn lumber.
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Offline drobertson

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Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2016, 07:48:01 am »
I like to hear a good rant every now and again, and its funny how different folks work. I have sawn for a few cabinet, furniture builders, and for the 1" stock, they all wanted it 1"
I will add this, they all mentioned it was only because of the flat consistency coming off the mill.
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Offline sawwood

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Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2016, 08:41:36 am »

 I am doing a flooring job for a customer and his lumber was milled at 1" thick. He had sticker
 it only in 3 places on a 8' length. So there was a lot of waste and did not make much flooring.
 I all ways mill to 1 1/8 or 1 1/4" to have some room to skip plane to 15/16 for the customer.

 He said he bought some Walnut and i hope he looked at it as i showed him what he needs to
 make his flooring and not have to much waste. Will see when he brings it to me this week end.

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Offline simonlow

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Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2016, 12:38:27 pm »
I never complain if asked to cut thicker, means fewer cuts for a given volume after all   :laugh:

Offline Glenn1

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Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2016, 03:57:47 pm »
Glenn,

I meant adding the 1/16' to the 1 1/8" to get to 1 3/16" like YellowHammer said. 

Flatsawn lumber will shrink from 8 to 12%.  Quartersawn lumber about 1/2 that .  So when you quartersaw, the thickness portion of the board is the flatsawn part, and the board will shrink 8 - 12% in thickness.  For flatsawn lumber, the thickness portion of the board has the quartersawn grain orientation, and it shrinks only 4 - 6% in thickness.  That is why there is a need to quartersaw lumber a little thicker than flatsawn lumber.


Thanks for the explanation.  I have been lucky.  We QS white oak to an inch and planed 1/16 off each side.  They are nice and clean at 7/8".  Next time, I will go a little thicker.
Sure glad that QS does not cup!
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Offline longtime lurker

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Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2016, 04:22:56 pm »
For finished, allowing for 8% shrinkage or less, we saw at 1".
Shrinkage out to 12% we saw at 1 3/64's ( metric guage is 26.5).

Hit and miss caused by blade wander is far less with a well tuned circle saw. Seems to me that any kerf saving you thin band guys get you give away to cutting thicker to allow for wavy cuts, and that at the end of the day in the " real world" of sawing there isn't that much yield difference either way: thin band kerf + oversaw = circle kerf.
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Offline ladylake

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Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2016, 04:34:37 pm »
 
 I saw just over 1", about 1  1/32 and maybe 3 board out of a 100 won't clean up at 13/16.  At 1 - 1/8 I'd be wasting 1 in 10 boards plus way more planeing to get to 13/16.  Steve
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Offline drobertson

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Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2016, 04:34:46 pm »
The whole deal on this end, even from what I've heard from the flooring folks, most cases a lighter cut is better, but not always, but for sure for the small scale builder, if the lumber is flat, and consistent, it makes for fewer passes through the planer. Time is the factor.
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Offline POSTONLT40HD

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Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2016, 05:58:42 pm »
............. and was probably in Slam Bam, Cut-em Quick, and Clear Out mode.  Just Saws Em Fast and Leaves Em Fast.


I know somebody like this.  :D :D :D
I'm thinking......

Offline bkaimwood

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Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2016, 06:46:04 pm »
For finished, allowing for 8% shrinkage or less, we saw at 1".
Shrinkage out to 12% we saw at 1 3/64's ( metric guage is 26.5).

Hit and miss caused by blade wander is far less with a well tuned circle saw. Seems to me that any kerf saving you thin band guys get you give away to cutting thicker to allow for wavy cuts, and that at the end of the day in the " real world" of sawing there isn't that much yield difference either way: thin band kerf + oversaw = circle kerf.
No wavy cuts here...if a sawyer running a band mill has wavy cuts, he should stop and find out why, not keep sawing. I have a local furniture guy here who is extraordinary particular, and has been in business for 40 years. He religiously has used circle mills for years as his supplier, and to saw his logs....because of the same mind set, that band mills make wavy lumber. I told him I don't saw wavy lumber. I had the honor of sawing for him almost 2 years ago. I am now his sawyer, also gaining referrals from him. Bandmill kerf savings is significant. The fact remains that most circle mills will out produce most band mills.
bk

Offline ozarkgem

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Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2016, 06:47:54 pm »
I never complain if asked to cut thicker, means fewer cuts for a given volume after all   :laugh:
Are you close to Satamax?
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Offline paul case

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Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2016, 06:50:07 pm »

Hit and miss caused by blade wander is far less with a well tuned circle saw. Seems to me that any kerf saving you thin band guys get you give away to cutting thicker to allow for wavy cuts, and that at the end of the day in the " real world" of sawing there isn't that much yield difference either way: thin band kerf + oversaw = circle kerf.

I think this depends on how concerned with quality that the sawyer is. Either circle or band. I see the culls from the flooring plant that I sell to and there are far more miss cuts with a circle saw than with band sawn lumber in there. Most of them are too thin and never should have been sent. Blame it on the help.

However,   If a bandmiller doesnt keep the band sharp and not push it too hard they can cut very accurate. I still think that if you put my bandmill up against a circle mill mine will make an extra 4/4 board every 5 cuts of the circle saw. some circle saws can cut more in 25 minutes that my mill can in a day!

For finished, allowing for 8% shrinkage or less, we saw at 1".
Shrinkage out to 12% we saw at 1 3/64's ( metric guage is 26.5).

Hit and miss caused by blade wander is far less with a well tuned circle saw. Seems to me that any kerf saving you thin band guys get you give away to cutting thicker to allow for wavy cuts, and that at the end of the day in the " real world" of sawing there isn't that much yield difference either way: thin band kerf + oversaw = circle kerf.
No wavy cuts here...if a sawyer running a band mill has wavy cuts, he should stop and find out why, not keep sawing. I have a local furniture guy here who is extraordinary particular, and has been in business for 40 years. He religiously has used circle mills for years as his supplier, and to saw his logs....because of the same mind set, that band mills make wavy lumber. I told him I don't saw wavy lumber. I had the honor of sawing for him almost 2 years ago. I am now his sawyer, also gaining referrals from him. Bandmill kerf savings is significant. The fact remains that most circle mills will out produce most band mills.


I typed all that out and should have waited and just wrote SAME.

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Offline ozarkgem

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Re: Sawing Too Thin
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2016, 06:51:11 pm »
I bought about 3000 bf of Walnut and Oak last spring that had been circle sawed. Lots of it was 3/4. Even the 1" was pretty rough. Paid 600 for it and sold it the next day for 1500. The guy made pic frames so thickness was not a issue. Not all of it was bad. It was misrepresented to me so I lowballed. It was 5 mile from also.
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.