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Brought home some American iron

Started by ozarkgem, September 14, 2016, 06:37:15 PM

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ozarkgem

I got this Crescent 12" jointer and the Wilson 16" radial arm saw today. The jointer runs smooth as can be. I really needed a good jointer. I am not sure why the beds on each side can be slid in and out. Maybe some one can enlighten me on that. Any tips on big jointers would be welcome. Both were only 6 miles from my house. They were a bargain. 8)

 
can't get the pics of the saw to upload
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.

thecfarm

Sometimes I have trouble. I try the modify and the other one. None work. I just hit reply and add it to that.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Bark Beetle

Is it possible the head is reversible so that you could run it from the opposite direction if it didn't work right for your shop?
You don't work wood, you work with wood.

muggs

Isn't that a wedge bed jointer, where sliding the tables back and forth changes the depth of cut ?    Muggs


Kcwoodbutcher

I have an old 12" Berlin (later named Yates American ) jointer. The beds also slide in and out. It has nothing to do with depth of cut adjustment. Once you start some maintenance on the machine you will be thankful they do. Sliding them out exposes all sorts of things that will require some type of lubrication. It's also a means to adjust the gap between the knives and the bed.
My job is to do everything nobody else felt like doing today

ozarkgem

Quote from: Kcwoodbutcher on September 16, 2016, 07:17:39 PM
I have an old 12" Berlin (later named Yates American ) jointer. The beds also slide in and out. It has nothing to do with depth of cut adjustment. Once you start some maintenance on the machine you will be thankful they do. Sliding them out exposes all sorts of things that will require some type of lubrication. It's also a means to adjust the gap between the knives and the bed.
OK I was wondering about that. I am very pleased with the job it does.
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.

Peter Drouin

It's that way so you can move the thing down and make a rabbit on the board.
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

Just Me

 I had a Porter 16" that the beds slid in and out and did some research on that. what I was able to find out was that it was so you could put profile knives in the machine and use it as a molder. Never did use it that way so can not say how it worked.

Larry

hackberry jake

Sweet finds! The tables sliding is a pretty common design for old iron jointers. Like the other fellas said.
Easily slip out of the way for knife changes
Tables can be removed and makes the jointer three lighter weight pieces.

Once you go old iron... Everything else just seems like a vibrating piece of Taiwanese pot metal.
https://www.facebook.com/TripleTreeWoodworks

EZ Boardwalk Jr. With 20hp Honda, 25' of track, and homemade setworks. 32x18 sawshed. 24x40 insulated shop. 30hp kubota with fel. 1978 Massey ferguson 230.

Savannahdan

The vintage machinery site has documents (brochures, owners manual, etc.) for some machinery.  You may want to try it if you don't have an owners manual.  http://www.vintagemachinery.org/
Husqvarna 3120XP, Makita DCS7901 Chainsaw, 30" & 56" Granberg Chain Saw Mill, Logosol M8 Farmers Mill

ozarkgem

Quote from: Savannahdan on September 28, 2016, 06:00:41 PM
The vintage machinery site has documents (brochures, owners manual, etc.) for some machinery.  You may want to try it if you don't have an owners manual.  http://www.vintagemachinery.org/
Thanks for the info. They are only 35 miles from.
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.

ozarkgem

Quote from: hackberry jake on September 27, 2016, 11:10:39 PM
Sweet finds! The tables sliding is a pretty common design for old iron jointers. Like the other fellas said.
Easily slip out of the way for knife changes
Tables can be removed and makes the jointer three lighter weight pieces.

Once you go old iron... Everything else just seems like a vibrating piece of Taiwanese pot metal.
Right on  Jake. No vibration on this beast. I have a cabinet job coming up and I really needed a good jointer for it. Best part it was only a few miles a way. Drove by it every morning.
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.

woodworker9

Nice grab.  My entire wood and metal shops are made up of old American iron, so I have a deep appreciation.

For the record, it's not a wedgebed jointer.  It's a parallelogram jointer.  Wedgebed jointers, like Yates American, Northfield, Porter, Moak, etc....have infeed and outfeed wedges that slide up and down on an angle of cast iron will full support.  I also own a 30" Whitney wedgebed planer that is an absolute beast.

Enjoy your new tools.  Better than any of the foreign junk you can buy today.
03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

hackberry jake

It is indeed a wedge bed jointer. You can see the wedges in the picture. There should be one set of wedges on each corner of each table.
https://www.facebook.com/TripleTreeWoodworks

EZ Boardwalk Jr. With 20hp Honda, 25' of track, and homemade setworks. 32x18 sawshed. 24x40 insulated shop. 30hp kubota with fel. 1978 Massey ferguson 230.

ozarkgem

Quote from: hackberry jake on October 07, 2016, 06:07:37 AM
It is indeed a wedge bed jointer. You can see the wedges in the picture. There should be one set of wedges on each corner of each table.
Yep there are 4 wedges on each table. That is where it slides up and down.
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.

woodworker9

Not trying to get in anybody's hair here, but those wedged shaped adjusters in each corner are not what makes it a wedgebed jointer/planer.  A wedgebed is defined as an adjustment system that slides, and is supported in it's entirety, by a continuously supported wedge of cast iron.

Here's an example of a wedgebed......I also have a 30" Baxter-Whitney planer where the entire raising mechanism is a 38" long wedge of cast iron.



The black painted retainers on both sides retain the upper wedged infeed/outfeed supports to the base of the machine.  This is the definition of a "wedgebed".

Crescent jointers are parallelogram style....stated clearly in their original documentation found on the VM.org website.

A common misunderstanding regarding these machines.

Like I said, not trying to ruffle feathers, but just being clear for the record.

Great jointer, either way you want to call it.  Congratulations on finding a very nice machine.
03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

hackberry jake

I apologize for my ignorance. I've been calling them by the wrong name. Grizzly makes a parallelogram style jointer that is in no way similar to these. The style like in the picture above I call a sliding dovetail jointer.
https://www.facebook.com/TripleTreeWoodworks

EZ Boardwalk Jr. With 20hp Honda, 25' of track, and homemade setworks. 32x18 sawshed. 24x40 insulated shop. 30hp kubota with fel. 1978 Massey ferguson 230.

woodworker9

Jake

No ignorance at all, and no need to apologize.  We're all here because we want to learn from each other.  I've been working with OWWM's for 16 years now, and my first
"real" planer was an Oliver 399 18" planer.  It replaced a screaming taiwanese 15"er, and it has been an absolute eye opening experience about the quality of old American iron (excuse me....Arn!) vs. what is available today for under $20K.

Since that time, I've restored close to 40 machines, and my entire shop is made up of heavy, old American machinery.

You probably know this, but last weekend was Arnfest here in Crystal Lake, Illinois.  I had close to 100 members in my shop for a party here.  On the woodworking side of things, the two most frequently "gawked at" machines were this jointer, which I restored 2 years ago, and my Whitney #32 30" planer.  It takes up more space than a car, but having the ability to plane wide boards and slabs is priceless.

Cheers, and I hope noone here thinks I was being argumentative.  I just wanted to add my .02 about something I know a lot about.  When it comes to sawmilling, I'm still learning how to get the most out of my LT40, and that's why I come here.....to listen and learn (well.....read and learn!)   ;)

Jeff
03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

ozarkgem

Do they function different?  All I know is I am very happy with the job my does.
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.

hackberry jake

The way yours is designed is the same way my 16" Oliver is designed. It's an excellent design. Over time cast iron can move around due to stress being released or due to temperature changes. The "parallelogram" style can compensate for this by adjusting each corner of each table. The wedges actually lock together so you can pull a corner down as well as push it up. Also if the tables ever need to be reground due to pitting or flatness, our tables can be taken off and mounted in a surface grinder, or metal planer, or Blanchard grinder, etc. With the "wedgebed" style. The tables must be ground on the machine and there are vary few shops capable of performing such a task.
https://www.facebook.com/TripleTreeWoodworks

EZ Boardwalk Jr. With 20hp Honda, 25' of track, and homemade setworks. 32x18 sawshed. 24x40 insulated shop. 30hp kubota with fel. 1978 Massey ferguson 230.

woodworker9

Quote from: ozarkgem on October 12, 2016, 06:13:25 PM
Do they function different?  All I know is I am very happy with the job my does.

Once either a parallelogram or a wedgebed style jointer is set up, both function equally well.  When you've had a chance to tear down and work on 4 or 5 of each style, you tend to develop a preference.   Both styles are capable of producing equal quality work.

I agree with some of what Jake stated, but I have to respectfully disagree with the last statement regarding alignment.  The number one shortcoming regarding a parallelogram style jointer is its lack of full support underneath the tables.  It is only supported at the four corners.  Once you get used to it, it's no big deal, but they are more finicky to re-adjust year after year.  With a wedgebed style, everything is bolted down flush to fully supportive machined surfaces.  They handle abuse, like dropping a heavy timber down on an infeed side that weighs hundreds of pounds, without coming out of alignment better than a parallelogram style.

The tables of a wedgebed style jointer, like in the picture I showed, have machined surfaces that register fully on the flat tops of the wedges.  I have documented full rebuilds on several of these jointers on OWWM forum, including the one shown, as well as an even larger 24" jointer.  I have detailed photo's of the rebuilds, including pictures of the tables on each machine getting re-ground. You do not have to take the entire machine in for grinding.  The grinding service uses the machined ways on the bottom of the tables as the reference for grinding, and the table tops get ground parallel to those surfaces.  This ensures that both tables are co-planer to each other, assuming that your body casting and wedges are all in alignment.  On occasion, I do have to some alignment scraping to the ways to get them "dead nuts".  I'm particularly picky about this part of a machine rebuild, but it pays off in the end with a machine that is better than new.

Here's a photo essay of a 24" jointer rebuild on my --Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!-- page.  I do not know how to download those photo's off of --Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!-- and onto this site, you you can just peruse them directly.  There are 3 pages of photo's, including pictures of the tables, removed from the machine, and being re-ground on a Mattison linear grinding machine.

--Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!--.com/user/hawkfan9/library/Yates%20American%20Number%201%2024%20inch%20jointer?sort=3&page=1

In the end, it's just a matter of personal preference.  Crescent jointers, as well as quite a few other old manufacturers that made parallelogram jointers, are made extremely well, and will give you a lifetime of great service once you get it properly aligned.

Edit:  The forum will not allow me to post a link to my --Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!-- page, and I can't figure out how to download the pictures (some 70 of them) off --Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!--, so PM me with your email address if you want to see it. 

03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

ozarkgem

How do you tell if they are out of alignment and how to you fix that?
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.

woodworker9

You can check alignment by first making sure that the infeed and outfeed tables are co-planar.  On your machine, this is adjusted at the 4 corners of each table.  It is checked with a straight edge, as well as an indicator on a magnetic of cast iron stand. 

Once you've verified that the planer tables are good, you need to also make sure that the cutterhead is aligned with the outfeed table.  This is also done with an indicator.  By placing the indicator stand on the outfeed table, very near the cutterhead opening, you can slowly sweep the cutterhead.  This is done by finding top dead center, TDC, and checking the height difference, if any between the outfeed table and the cutterhead.  If the differences vary by more than a few thousandth's, say .004 at worst (I align my jointers to at least .002), then you need to adjust the table supports (in the case of your jointer) or the cutterhead bearing blocks (easy to do on a wedgebed, like mine) by placing shimstock of the appropriate thickness under the low side.

It's a pretty simple procedure that might take an hour or two the first time you do it.  It should be checked once a year, or if you're noting something amiss when using the jointer.

Once you've got everything alignment, it's time to install your knives.  Make sure your knives are all set equal to each other, within .001 for best results, and that the outfeed table is set even with TDC of the arc of your knives.

On both my Yates American 16" and 24" jointers, both #1's, I took the extra time to scrape all the ways parallel on the base.  This made the table grinding to guarantee to be coplaner.  Then, I used steel shimstock on the 24" outfeed bearing block, as it was low .011.  On the 16"er, it was only off by .004, so instead of using shimstock, I scraped it down by hand.  4 hours of work that was well worth it.  It's the best, most aligned jointer I've ever had the pleasure of using. 

What this translates to in your work is joints that are more square across long distances, like 8' long table glue ups.  It's not as noticeable on shorter edge joints or flattening, but on longer boards, you can really tell the difference.  A cutterhead that is off by more than a few thou will result in a bit of a twist in a long board, and this will mean more corrective hand planing when you're trying to make high dollar tables and other furniture.  In business, time is money.  The more a table top is off during glue-up from flat, the more final hand planing I have to do to get it flat.  That can add hours of work to each piece built.

If this isn't clear, there are quite a few you-tube video's on setting up jointers and planers online.  I would recommend, especially, the one's made by Bob Vaughan.  They are clear and easy to follow for folks doing this sort of thing for the first time.
03' LT40HD25 Kohler hydraulic w/ accuset
MS 441, MS 290, New Holland L185

ozarkgem

I own a machine shop so I get what you are saying. I will check everything. Thank you for the info.
Jim
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.

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