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Markets are getting bad!!!

Started by Woodhauler, September 12, 2016, 07:57:16 AM

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Woodhauler

Spruce log prices dropped 25$ in log yards, sappi closed for 2 weeks on taking hardwood, verso on limited quota, Catalyst taking limited wood, Woodland closed for 2 weeks minimum, no spruce fir pulp market anywhere,I can go on and on!!!  Setting home getting ready to go out back and finish sawing mine and my daughters firewood.
2013 westernstar tri-axle with 2015 rotobec elite 80 loader!Sold 2000 westernstar tractor with stairs air ride trailer and a 1985 huskybrute 175 T/L loader!

Ed_K

 I talked with my trucker on Sat. he moved 2 loads for the whole week  :o . He was lucky that his son in law needed an extra gravel truck driver or he'd been setting at home all week.
Ed K

Maine logger88

Yup been a pretty slow summer. I think I've only cut 25 truckload and around 35 cord of cut split firewood all summer. Lucky I've had plenty of other work to do
79 TJ 225 81 JD 540B Husky and Jonsered saws

killamplanes

Ya here, blocking lumber is moving at a snail pace. Blocking mills packed so aren't crane mats which are the next step up. RR tie mills aren't hurtin for logs either. And are grade mills have plenty. Short story long the soft prices remain in place probly till we have weather delays logging...
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

Bert

I know of quite a few big businesses that are sitting on the fence waiting on the November election results. Nobody wants to put money out right now not knowing the future.
Saw you tomorrow!

thecfarm

It's a scary market out there.
I wonder who will make it and who won't.
I wonder about the pulp market. Cut the logs and leave the rest.  ::)
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Ken

Most all of our markets have been plugged since last fall.  There was a time not long ago when industry was complaining that there was not enough capacity in the woods to provide the raw material to their plants.  Some industrial players have loaded up on new equipment over the past couple of years and now the mills are all plugged.  Going to be a tough slog this winter.
Lots of toys for working in the bush

timberlinetree

It is a little scary! Insurance companies are making it .Big time! I know someone who got a $20,000 bonus when Obama care was passed. Last year $50,000!
I've met Vets who have lived but still lost their lives... Thank a Vet

Family man and loving it :)

Woodhauler

Quote from: timberlinetree on September 14, 2016, 05:07:52 AM
It is a little scary! Insurance companies are making it .Big time! I know someone who got a $20,000 bonus when Obama care was passed. Last year $50,000!
How does this effect markets???
2013 westernstar tri-axle with 2015 rotobec elite 80 loader!Sold 2000 westernstar tractor with stairs air ride trailer and a 1985 huskybrute 175 T/L loader!

timberlinetree

Just saying some job markets are doing better than others.
I've met Vets who have lived but still lost their lives... Thank a Vet

Family man and loving it :)

BurkettvilleBob

Quote from: timberlinetree on September 14, 2016, 05:07:52 AM
It is a little scary! Insurance companies are making it .Big time! I know someone who got a $20,000 bonus when Obama care was passed. Last year $50,000!
Pardon my ignorance, but how does a person receive a " bonus" from Obama care and where is the connection between wood markets and Healthcare? I'm asking because I believe I will owe money because of last years earnings.

Woodhauler

Lets try to keep this on topic. Obama care has nothing to do with selling wood.
2013 westernstar tri-axle with 2015 rotobec elite 80 loader!Sold 2000 westernstar tractor with stairs air ride trailer and a 1985 huskybrute 175 T/L loader!

OH logger

well obamacare is and is going to continue to hurt the economy. people are spending more money on healthcare so they  (we) have less money to spend on a new hard wood floor or kitchen table or...? that hurts the wood market all around.   IMO of course
john

Rick Alger

We have the same market conditions here in northern NH. There are a lot of machines sitting.

danbuendgen

You can bet Obama Care is hurting the wood market, and the economy in general. I have a buddy who is a forester, he's about my age. He was spending $350 per month for health insurance, for him, wife and child. Now with Obama Care, he is paying almost $900 per month for worse coverage! And he claims it's the best he can find.

But to stay on track here, I can tell the wood market sucks just by looking at the large amount  of used equipment and the prices now. Seems like every time I get online there is more and more of it around. And it seems like the prices are going down and nothing moves fast. Around here I don't see too much logging equipment sitting around, but we all seem to be on quotas for pine, and no one can get rid of the softwood pulp. Firewood markets are hit or miss.
Husqvarna ~ TimberJack ~ Dodge Cummins

killamplanes

I have been lookin at getting a grapple skidder. But I guess things aren't hurting enough. I have seen some for sale but look pretty pricey for what they are. My prediction is that the market will have to stay down for awhile longer before I see equipment getting sold of. Again I'm in the Midwest not pulp country. So I don't see a lot of equipment anyway..
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

BurkettvilleBob

I apologize for perpetuating topic derailment with regard to healthcare spending Woodhauler.
A more appropriate question, I've heard of small farmers pooling their crops to draw a better price. Is this something that people have tried doing with wood products? More people, more product, larger market?
This may not apply to the current situation, where markets in general are down.

David-L

I get good wood and have no alliance to any mill. If they want my wood it has to be scaled fair and paid for fair or I try some other outlet.  Think about it, This selling logs is the only venture were you are told how much by the mill you are going to get for selling them your product. There are others but this is about wood. To bad us loggers dont' have a way to keep the mills in check by putting them on quota and watch the yard dry up. Stay small and diversified is my 2 cents.
In two days from now, tomorrow will be yesterday.

Bruno of NH

In Baker river valley of NH my BIL can on bring one load of hardwood pulp a week .
The big hardwood mill next to my house has trucks dropping of wood all day but i hear he he pays little for the logs
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

killamplanes

Here, I have a very personal connection with my mills. They are all family owned not mega corporation s. They make money like I do not a killing just a living. I regular sell to 5 mills. Some are mom and pop bandmills. Some have 15 employees. When there yard is empty of logs I try even harder to keep them coming in. They pay better for it and in the long run, them staying in business can only be benificial to me. On the flip side I know what my logs are worth. And I have my own mill and if I thought I could do better I would put them across my mill. Anyway maybe different here but I view a mill as my partner not my boss or evil necisisity to a pay check
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

Tom L

it's not just forestry and logging, the construction and steel fabricating industries on the east coast are about as slow as I have ever seen it.

if the stock market takes a big hit in the coming months, it will get very ugly, that seems to be the only thing that is supporting the economy at all

OH logger

Quote from: killamplanes on September 15, 2016, 07:59:48 AM
Here, I have a very personal connection with my mills. They are all family owned not mega corporation s. They make money like I do not a killing just a living. I regular sell to 5 mills. Some are mom and pop bandmills. Some have 15 employees. When there yard is empty of logs I try even harder to keep them coming in. They pay better for it and in the long run, them staying in business can only be benificial to me. On the flip side I know what my logs are worth. And I have my own mill and if I thought I could do better I would put them across my mill. Anyway maybe different here but I view a mill as my partner not my boss or evil necisisity to a pay check

same here exactly! I don't have a mill anymore but I need the sawmills as much as they need me and other loggers. some of the log buyers have become pretty good friends of mine. they watch out for me and I do the same for them ;)
john

BurkettvilleBob

What kind of products do these smaller mills produce and how are they marketed? Here in Maine there are various specialty mills, one guy mills exclusively cedar, another specialty hardwoods, another flooring and custom millwork, another shingles and so forth. Is this the same thing you guys are talking about?

danbuendgen

Quote from: Tom L on September 15, 2016, 09:11:26 AM
it's not just forestry and logging, the construction and steel fabricating industries on the east coast are about as slow as I have ever seen it.

if the stock market takes a big hit in the coming months, it will get very ugly, that seems to be the only thing that is supporting the economy at all

That's right. I have all kinds of self-employed buddy's and they're all slow on work this year. Carpenters, plumbers, excavating, tree work, landscaping, you name it. Everyone says work is slower then normal, and everyone's bids for work are very competitive right now.

Husqvarna ~ TimberJack ~ Dodge Cummins

killamplanes

The smaller mills here specialize in things like rr ties. The logs tend to be small and alot of them have no grade for side lumber so the larger grade mill don't want them. But pretty good money in tie logs. If u can get the right size logs below 15in.
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

killamplanes

My mill does tie but all side lumber goes into the pallet business another one of my entitys
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

BurkettvilleBob

There are still many miles of rail left in Maine, I don't know where the ties come from though. I'd assume if they were locally sourced they'd be red oak. I can't speak to statewide conditions, but I thought the general consensus was that things have picked up over previous years. The midcoast area is in a bit of a bubble though, so may not be able to apply those conditions everywhere. I know much of the state is hurting pretty bad and has been for a while.

lopet

Quote from: danbuendgen on September 15, 2016, 06:08:24 PM
Quote from: Tom L on September 15, 2016, 09:11:26 AM
it's not just forestry and logging, the construction and steel fabricating industries on the east coast are about as slow as I have ever seen it.

if the stock market takes a big hit in the coming months, it will get very ugly, that seems to be the only thing that is supporting the economy at all

That's right. I have all kinds of self-employed buddy's and they're all slow on work this year. Carpenters, plumbers, excavating, tree work, landscaping, you name it. Everyone says work is slower then normal, and everyone's bids for work are very competitive right now.


Unfortunately that's the way things are going right now, but like I said in the past, that we borrowed way too much from the future and it will be just a matter of time  when it comes back to haunt us.
People starting to wake up and realize that our corrupt government ( btw Canada isn't much different than the US ) is making us to slaves and we are getting squeezed more and more.

A little while back I started a new thread about economics and what's related to this topic.  Actually I just posted a you tube link about how our system works and how we are captived in it. I also thought some of you guys might be interested or can even learn something of it.
Anyhow, long story short, somebody on this board thought that we don't want such topic on this forum and moved it into some " restricted topics " where it can't be found anymore.  Ok , maybe it does not belong here, but by removing the whole thread without any notification the dear mods overreacted a little.
I started thinking a bit and came to the conclusion that we probably have as many people on the other side who like the system keep going as we have slaves who works their butts off. Think about, most everyone of us knows somebody who works in the public sector, like government, health care, teaching , inspectors, PUC etc. Or most everyone of us knows somebody who relies on a monthly payment from the government.  All these folks don't want to change anything in the system, or asking even for more, while on the other side  farmers , loggers or  any self employed individuals are getting taxed and regulated right to the getco.
Maybe my words didn't come across the way I wanted to, but maybe you guys understand what I am trying to say. It's just sad to see our society getting torn apart, it will destroy friendships and families.

Sorry for my rant , but I had to.   oh yeah and I am a big fan of Ron Paul, he could have things tuned around way back, if anyone would have ever listened to him.

You can call me a pessimist, like some of my buddies do , but I am not getting tired arguing. 
Make sure you know how to fall properly when you fall and as to not hurt anyone around you.
Also remember, it's not the fall what hurts, its the sudden stop. !!

timberlinetree

The chip mill in ct is still full. When in Arkansas I saw full yard of pine and Tennessee a chip pile stacked all the way to the conveyer.
We are real busy,real busy but after all the bills are paid there's not much left. Not sure if we have the same story as the guy at the auto parts store. He said he couldn't keep up with work as he walked out with worn out boots and got into his falling apart truck. Your right lopet something is out of wack and I m getting real tired of busting but for everyone else( except family, work my hands to bone for them)!
I've met Vets who have lived but still lost their lives... Thank a Vet

Family man and loving it :)

dustintheblood

About 20 years ago I tried to figure out (on paper) how to make a small beef operation work.  Couldn't put down the red pen, so didn't even try it out.  Glad I didn't since the economics just don't work in these days and times for a small farm.

So after about 25 years in the wood business, I found that the same principles are in play.  No matter how sharp the pencil, the red ink comes out.  That's why I got out.

Everything's increasingly complex in a global economy, and trends are not in the favour of the solid wood products markets (or paper for that matter).  People don't buy quality, they buy cheap.  They don't think 30 years out, only 30 minutes.

I know a few wood mfr'ing companies that started up to feed the IKEA "machine" and made out great for two years.  Then after a couple of years, the big guys came knocking and said "mind if you lower your price a bit?".  All tooled up and ramped up for big production, they didn't have a choice but lower their price.  So they slimmed down, got more efficient and managed to lose money in a far more efficient way.  Then the IKEA guys came a-knockin' again and said "great work, but do you mind if you shave that price a bit more".

Poor buggers; one customer; one product; one big loss.

I don't know folks, other than the woods are mighty quiet here and have been for a very long time.  My timber's growing and the forest is healthy.  The boys can figure out the markets when they get older.  In the meantime, the basal area increases every year no matter who's in office, which party is screaming the loudest or what the headlines are saying about who's killing whom.
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Peter Drouin

I would have trouble with someone telling me what I can charge.  boxingsmiley
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

BurkettvilleBob

Ironically there has been a resurgence in small farms around here, good food cost money though, and you can't complain about paying 6 bucks a pound for hamburg.
Relative to the wood business, supporting local mills is key, but that probably isn't going to make anyone rich. I obviously don't have the answer.

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