NEW Central Boiler Install

[DDW_OR]

I am installing a CB 750 Edge into a Palm Harbor double wide.
will be posting what i do and what i should Not do.
Update 11/27/2020 - what i did wrong and how i fixed it
NEW Central Boiler Install in Firewood and Wood Heating

Central Boiler 750 - not a happy customer - serious issues with cleaning in Firewood and Wood Heating

Foundation
Used a pad of 3/4 minus gravel, leveled and flattened.
built a 2x4 wood frame about 2 inches bigger that the minimum furnace footprint
then placed concrete wire mesh inside the frame.
then mixed two bags at a time of 80# UPC 764661102809
NOTE - add the water for 2 bags, then add one bag at a time, mixing each bag.


   


   
Process = add water for 2 bags, add one bag, mix, then add second bag, mix, then use tractor to lift mixer and move it over area to pour.


 
lifted wire mesh after each pouring to place mesh into center of concrete

[DDW_OR]

now to get the furnace off the trailer. height including trailer is 10 feet
CB states the weight of the 750 is, 2,527 lbs.
I have a Bobcat 331,
max lift height is 12 feet
Max lift weight is  2,416 lb

and a Mahindra 5520 4x4,
max lift height is 10 feet 6 inches
Max lift weight is  3,200 lb

i will try removing the excavator bucket and maybe the thumb assembly.
then lift furnace. if that does not work then rent a crane.

CB states the furnace is top lift only.

[DDW_OR]

got the CB onto the pad, got a Bobcat E80 Excavator.
using the Bobcat 331 and a 1 foot bucket, dug the trench for the ThermaPex, Electric and Fresh water.
will add a 1.5 inch empty plastic pipe for future use.

[DDW_OR]

 


 
above photo - red line comes from CB-750 and connects to the Double Wall Heat Exchanger, then blue line to Heat Exchanger Coil


 
above photo - Blue line from water heater is changed to red. then blue line from Heat Exchanger Coil to CB-750
will have blue line re-plumbed to not block removal of squirrel cage fan


 
Photo above - trench is 12 inches wide and 4 feet deep. ThermoPex is in the bottom, then dirt. Electric and an empty 1.5 inch black plastic pipe 24 inches from ground level.


 
one of the two pipes in the ThermoPex has a black stripe to show the hot line.
In photo, Left pipe, top to bottom = Red shut-off valve, Taco 007 Pump, yellow T-valve with male garden hose connection, Black stripe pipe
Right pipe, top to bottom = Green shut-off valve, one way check valve, un-marked pipe

the male garden hose connection is only used to remove air from the heating loop.

[Czech_Made]

Following

[thecfarm]

You will like it!!
I filled my trenches with sand and put about 4 inches of top soil on top.

[Upstateguy650]

Following.  Interested in how people like the edge model series.  Have had my eye on them recently. 

[Roger2561]

When the E-Clasic 1400 ends it's usefulness I'll be looking into the Edge OWB.  Plus, I think I'll upgrade from the 1" thermopex I installed with the 1400 to the 1 1/4" thermopex for the Edge.  I wish I had purchased the large size thermopex when I installed the 1400 but hindsight is 20/20.  Roger

[DDW_OR]

My run is about 50 feet

[DDW_OR]

here is what i did the the downdraft electric furnace (EF).

I built a wood frame work to extend the front of the EF

 
placed the washable filter into the back side of the EF door
used magnets to attach EF door in wood frame

  
luckily there was a 3/4 inch gap on each side of the EF

 
used an Indoor/Outdoor thermometer to measure coil temp. used a magnet to hold Outdoor probe to coil

  
to make sure the air comes only through the coil I built a two sided box around the pex pipes and a plywood front for the squirrel cage fan. used 1x2 to reinforce the plywood.
used weather stripping to make an air tight connections.

 

[DDW_OR]

Electric Furnace (EF ) Heat Exchanger Coil

coil is glued to the opening

 

[DDW_OR]

the heat from the CB-750 is MUCH better that the heat from the Electric Furnace.
this is primarily due to the fact that the coil is always hot, so it heats all of the air in the EF cabinet.

did some temp measurements and found a problem. EF coil is 179 and the Water Heater coil is 80.

stopped adding wood to the 750 on 11/30/2016. been stirring the coals and wood chunks until nothing is left to burn.
12/2/2016 display on 750 reads FO = Fire Out
12/4/2016 Temp at EF coil is 118

[boilerman101]

I'm not following you here. You have 179 degree water at EF coil and 80 at water heater coil? Why did you quit adding wood?

[DDW_OR]

for 3 days the temps were EF = 170+ and WH = 80.
the CB water flow should go to the domestic Water Heater then to the EF coil.
so since the EF coil was hotter i determined that the CB water was plumbed backwards.
working with 180+ water will burn. so shutting down the CB was the best idea.
the plumbing will be fixed this Friday 12/9/2016.

[overclocking]

I highly doubt your getting a 90* temp drop with that little of an exchanger. Your reading might be off a bit.

I see what your saying about the water heater getting heat first, that's how mine is hooked up. Doesn't make sense to me though, because it was so darn hot, I had to put a scolding valve in and crank it all the way up to get it so it wont burn you.

That boiler is huge for a double wide. It should roast you right of there. Hopefully you plan to heat a garage too so you can use more of its potential. Or better yet, add radiant floor heat.

My 1400 heats my big house so hot, at times I have to open the doors.

How many feet of head are you pushing with that 007?

[DDW_OR]

during the three day run the outside was +40F, and house was +73F
i do not have radiant floor heat. if i did i probably would bake

future additions:
Green House
Hot Tub
Kiln?

Measurement:
Fluke 62 Mini Infrared Thermometer Gun
http://www.fluke.com/fluke/inen/Electrical-Test-Tools/Thermometers/Fluke-62.htm?PID=56096

Hot water heater now has a scolding valve

feet of head = 6 foot rise, run = 50 feet

[DDW_OR]

It looks like he connected the two heat exchangers in parallel rather than in series



 

in photo
Right is 107 Heat Exchanger Coil
center is thermopex from CB-750
Left is from water heater coil.

[DDW_OR]

Red 2 is the hot from CB-750
Blue 2 is the return to CB-750

TO FIX
remove both T connecters
connect RED 2 to RED 3
connect blue 3 to RED 1
connect blue 1 to blue 2


 

[ibbob]

Since you have to re-plumb it, run to the furnace first then into the top of the side arm out the bottom and back outside

[DDW_OR]

The buried ThermoPex that runs between the CB-750 and the house has two pipes. one with a black stripe and one with no stripe. the black stripe is the send, the no stripe is the return. that part is done correctly.

it is when the two heating coils are connected to the ThermoPex is where the problem is 


 
in the drawing above the ThermoPex is in green.
the water heater coil has a double wall to prevent drinking water mixing with the CB-750 water.
the correct flow is from CB through ThermoPex black stripe tube to waterheater coil
then from waterheater coil to Furnace coil #107
then back to CB using the no-stripe tube

[DMcCoy]

I'm not seeing flow control valves or zone valves.

[ibbob]

Switch the red and blue at the thermo pex and you'll have it right.  Hot has to go in the top of the side arm to make it work

[DDW_OR]

 
this is how the waterheater coil is plumbed now
I am waiting for the plumber that did the crawl space work to come back and fix his mistake.

[DDW_OR]

the outside temps have been around +18 to +38. one load of madrone wood, 22 inch long, in the CB-750 has lasted FOUR days. the inside temp is +72

[coxy]

Switch the red and blue at the thermo pex and you'll have it right.  Hot has to go in the top of the side arm to make it work

I looked at that 4 times and couldn't figure out what didn't look right   I have my hot water hooked up on the return loop to keep it a little cooler I run my old owb at 200 for my base board my new used owb I can only set it at 195  :(  I'm to cheap/lazy to put a mixing valve in

[DDW_OR]

the next load of madrone lasted SIX DAYS at similar temps.

the plumber has not fixed his mistake yet because of our need for heat.

[trapper]

My hot goes in from the bottom of the sidearm and we have had all the hot water we could use for the last 12 years.

[petefrom bearswamp]

Off the subject a little bit.
Any problems with the shark bite connectors?
I used them on my classic, but the water level kept dropping.
No leaks in the firebox and I determined that the connectors were weeping slightly, and th ewater was generally evaporating due to the heat so it was not readily evident.
I changed to automotive heater hose and conventional clamps and solved the problem.

[DDW_OR]

no leaks, the water level has remained the same.

[overclocking]

Switch the red and blue at the thermo pex and you'll have it right.  Hot has to go in the top of the side arm to make it work

His is correct. The hot goes into the bottom first, it warms the cooler water that has settled on the bottom of the tank and causes it to rise, which starts the siphon.  I have seen it both ways, but the way he has it is how CB recommends they are hooked up for correct siphon to take place.



 

Off the subject a little bit.
Any problems with the shark bite connectors?
I used them on my classic, but the water level kept dropping.
No leaks in the firebox and I determined that the connectors were weeping slightly, and th ewater was generally evaporating due to the heat so it was not readily evident.
I changed to automotive heater hose and conventional clamps and solved the problem.

The shark-bites shouldn't leak ever, if they do then the pipe was scratched and the O-ring never sealed. They use them here for new residential houses, like $500k houses and they even put them in the walls. I haven't seen one leak that was prepped right. Aside from that I have probably 20 or more on my system and so far I only had a problem with one, and it was old and was exposed to muriatic acid when I was cleaning the exchanger. Its possible your problem was a scratch or out of round pipe. The plastic insert might not have been used as well if it was leaking on pex.



How has the edge been as far as cleaning and clogging up? I imagine it spends most of its day at idle given the load.

[DDW_OR]

How has the edge been as far as cleaning and clogging up? I imagine it spends most of its day at idle given the load.

you are correct, the CB spends most of its time in idle which causes the fire to go out.

for end-of-season cleaning i let the CB water temp drop to under 100 degrees, then loaded DRY wood to create a hot fire to crystallize the creosote buildup, thus making it easier to clean.

will be making my own scraping bar since the one from CB comes in two sections that do not fit together correctly causing the joint to wobble. also the bar is HEAVY.

 

[boilerman101]

DDW evidently as a new CB gasser owner you are still trying to figure things out. For starters the hoe that came with your furnace is a compression fit so you need to pound the 2 sections together on a slab of concrete (what I used). They will snug up so tight that you will never get them apart and the joint section certainly will not wobble. I find it works well to scrape the sidewalls and corners. I can't help you with the you think it is heavy comment. After putting up more wood it will get lighter  :D. Even if you have a light heat load and furnace idles a lot it should never go out if you adjust the air pulse feature. I set the Firestar controller on my E2400 for a 50 sec air pulse happening every 15 or 20 minutes and it never goes out. Give that a try. I read in your previous posts you are trying to load firebox for days, that is not recommended when running gassers as it will build a lot of excess creosote inside firebox. I've found that less is more and creates less maintenance issues. I also get much hotter reaction chamber temps and can control coal bed depth easier. I typically get reaction chamber temps of 1,100 - 1,400 degrees. Shoot for 1-3" of coals over air charge tube. Did you put the XP wifi monitoring device on your Edge? I would not be without it and you can learn a lot from the recorded charts.

[Logging logginglogging]

Even with my old boiler, I found loading light produced a hot cleaner fire. I had no air pulsing features, it simply kicked on the blower when temps got low enough. With good wood it never went out, in fact I had shoveled out hot red coals into a bucket, cleaned the boiler and replaced the coals with some dry wood, and it would take right off without even restarting a fire. I imagine I will hit a learning curve with my new boiler as I did with my first one as well.

[kvacresfarm]

I am getting ready to install a Central boiler at our place and I had some questions about the downdraft furnace system. We are living in a single wide with a downdraft furnace just like yours. Return air wall filter on top, a-coil on top, then the blower, then the electric furnace guts. The a-coil has a drain pan which is plastic. Should I be putting the heat-exchanger between the a-coil and the blower, or on top of it? I didn't see an a-coil in the original post. 

[DDW_OR]

we do not have AC in our home, just heat.

electric furnace before heating coil







heating coil added with silicon glue  


 


added plywood to make the air go through the heating coil before it goes into the blower



 

 


the area above the electric furnace is just an empty box.
this box "fills" with hot air when the blower is not blowing.
thus providing instant hot air when required.
and provides a passive radiant heat.

[DDW_OR]

Maybe a sheet metal shop could come up with a solution for your situation?

stacking coils on top of each other will restrict air flow

A = blower
B = OWB heating coil
C = Air conditioner coil
D = drip pan
E =solid baffle to direct air flow through either the heat or AC coil

move baffle E from AC coil slot to OWB coil slot



 

[kvacresfarm]

Problem is that it's a triangular a-coil and not a typical rectangular exchanger. Without purchasing a new exchanger for the a/c side, I don't think your baffled setup would work. I've read of folks raising their unit and putting the exchanger on the bottom of the furnace, but that might not work well. 

[DDW_OR]

Problem is that it's a triangular a-coil and not a typical rectangular exchanger. Without purchasing a new exchanger for the a/c side, I don't think your baffled setup would work. I've read of folks raising their unit and putting the exchanger on the bottom of the furnace, but that might not work well.

talk to Central boiler, or the person that sold it to you.
second choice is an AC installer.
Good Luck.

[boilerman101]

The Central Boiler site and owners install manuals have many diagram drawings of various furnace install applications on it. If you have a downdraft furnace there is a drawing that shows mounting the hot water exchanger between the blower fan and air coil which makes sense. The A-coil could not risk freeze up the water exhanger in the summer months when water is not moving that way. Most water to air coils do not create much air flow resistance so I would not worry about greatly reduced duct airflow. I've found the CB install diagrams to be very helpful and they work when followed.

[E Yoder]

We put water coils under the A coil quite often in double-wides. If it freezes up its probably low in refrigerant.

[kvacresfarm]

Do you think the water to air heat exchanger will get hot enough to damage the air conditioning coils plastic condensing tray? It's one of those units with the plastic drip tray.

[DDW_OR]

i have a cheap indoor/outdoor thermometer connected to the coil and the temp is usually around 180 deg F

so melting plastic, no. deforming it, yes.

[hedgerow]

Do you think the water to air heat exchanger will get hot enough to damage the air conditioning coils plastic condensing tray? It's one of those units with the plastic drip tray.

I have three furnaces in my house all up flow furnaces with water to air heat exchanger's in them and two are set up with the exchanger under the A coil and one above the A coil and I haven't had any issues with damage to the plastic A coil pans. They have been in service for 10 years. 
  

[kvacresfarm]

Are they below the a coil with spacing or is the heat exchanger touching the a coil? I've seen them installed like that. A friend of mine has the central 5036 boiler and the heat exchanger is mounted in the plenum directly below the a coil, but it looks like there is 2-3" of spacing between the exchanger and a coil.

[J 5]

 I have run 2 furnaces with A coils about 4 inches above  the heater cores for 19 years with no melting or deforming of the plastic trays. Temp at max is usually 160 -165 f .
              J 5

[MNBobcat]

The furnace HX should always be plumbed so that the return line on the HX is where the cool air enters the HX coil.  

The return line is going to be the lower temperature water.  You want that side of the coil to pre-warm the air passing through the coil and and you want the air leaving the coil going into the home should be as hot as possible.  

So you want the air exit side of the coil to be the side that the hot input pex connects to.  This is opposite of the way most people plumb these things, but it's the most efficient.

Pre-warm the air and then raise the air to the hottest possible temperature before it leaves the HX and goes into the house.

[DDW_OR]

I got a Flir C2 thermal camera.
the pictures are here
Installing a New CB Edge 750 HD this weekend! in Firewood and Wood Heating

[DDW_OR]

I did some searching and found this for install on an AC a-coil

install-Central-Boiler-standard-heat-pump-c240

[hedgerow]

Are they below the a coil with spacing or is the heat exchanger touching the a coil? I've seen them installed like that. A friend of mine has the central 5036 boiler and the heat exchanger is mounted in the plenum directly below the a coil, but it looks like there is 2-3" of spacing between the exchanger and a coil.

The two I have that are under the A coil are a couple of inches under the A coil pans as later model LP furnaces were installed and were shorter than the original furnaces were so there was room to install them there but not room above the A coil. Hasn't bothered the A coils in 10 years. 

[DDW_OR]

will be posting what i do and what i should Not do.

Now for what i did wrong. Very wrong
First  - too big of furnace for just house and water heater
Second - long burns, more than 1 day, mostly a slow smolder = LOTS OF CREOSOTE
Third - inadequate cleaning, tight fit getting into the firebox, I am 52, 250 pounds, 5 ft 10 in


 

 


the platform is the crate the riding mower came in, Very handy for lots of things.

[DDW_OR]

first stage of cleaning


 

 

 


only good use for the masks
but only blocks large partials, small  partials still get into the lungs.

[DDW_OR]

in the future i will be replacing the 750 with one of the new HDX models
also spray foam insulate the 30x64x12 pole barn and adding heating

the 750 will give me an idea of what HDX will be needed with the added heating load.

still plan to add a hot tub and greenhouse to the load.

[E Yoder]

I'd spray some diesel down the exchanger and light it up, blow air through it with a leaf blower. Rather than scraping it off. 

[DDW_OR]

I'd spray some diesel down the exchanger and light it up, blow air through it with a leaf blower. Rather than scraping it off.

I will try that with the second half.
will see what i have, on hand, to spray the diesel
will use a shop vac to blow

[E Yoder]

Just keep an eye on the area at the top by the chimney, I don't know if it's water cooled, don't want to melt spray foam.
 

[DDW_OR]

did not do the diesel

got two 5 gallon buckets of creosote

filled the CB, only had one gallon of rust preventer, more are on order
started fire, reaction chamber is only at 900 deg.

there are clinkers in the air box
now going to let fire die, water temp drop, and clean the air channels
Maybe another 2 gallons of creosote?

[E Yoder]

Wow, that sounds like fun. It must be still choked somewhere.

[DDW_OR]

had air in the heating loop

shut off valve above pump
used a washer machine hose to hook up the garden hose to the heating loop
turned on the water to push the air out of the loop

in-house temp was 80, now 144

 

 

[boilerman101]

I have a 2015 Edge 750 as well. I spend 5-10 minutes every Saturday scraping walls and corners in firebox. Then pump chains up and down/back and forth in the rear echanger. After 5 years I still have not taken those rear exchanger panels off ever and chains pump freely. Took panel below loading door and side air channels off over the summer for just the 2nd time for a good cleaning. Was getting around 1,000 degree reaction chamber temps last year and now getting 1,200-1,300 degree temps. I think the key to less maintenance is making sure you are reaching 900+ degree temps each burn cycle. I also run at a 190 degree set point which seems to keep the firebox a little drier. I run at a 10 degree differential, 50 second air pulse every 25 minutes. Once you finish that clean up, maybe you want to try some of my methods and maybe it will not make that much mess again. I have a fairly light heatload as well with just a 2,300 sq ft house. In my mind a burn cycle is a burn cycle and just want it to burn good and hot during that cycle to keep creosote build up down.

[DDW_OR]

will be getting a 760 HDX for the Montana property.
with antifreeze rated for 0 deg F

1 1/4 loop
House
Domestic hot water
garage
Hot tub

3/4 loop
Polebarn 30x60x14
shop inside polebarn 30x20

other 3/4 Loop, on demand pump hooked up to an in-ground temp probe
Greenhouse with in-ground heat loop kept at 40 deg
loop will be in a 3 foot deep insulated grow pit
dig down 3 ft, spray foam on pit walls and 80% of bottom
then add double loop of Pex
fill with black dirt
may use an old water heater as a thermo  reservoir
grow tomatoes in the dirt, using string like the commercial growers do
keep it so i can exchange the soil every few years.