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How would you attack this?

Started by lowpolyjoe, September 08, 2016, 11:53:28 AM

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lowpolyjoe

Large rotten tree came out of the ground recently and is now resting awkwardly.  I was about to charge at it and start cutting,  but thought better of it.

I have little experience and don't know how things will fall as I start cutting.   

I'm having a tree service visit today to get a quote to lay it flat on the ground.  Then I will clean it up myself. 

Curious to hear what you guys might do to attack this safely.   Keep in mind It's virtually impossible to get large machinery to this location without significant effort (cutting down several nice trees, removing a fence, etc) so we're talking just people, saws, pulleys, ropes, and maybe a winch attached to a nearby tree.   

https://youtu.be/4VEiN1L5OnE

Thanks

Texas Ranger

Every  thing on it  is spring loaded.  Get a pro.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

lowpolyjoe

Texas Ranger - that was my thinking after walking around it a few times. 

I worked up several plans, but with each of them i could see things possibly going wrong and putting me in the hospital or worse.  I'm very curious to hear what my local tree service guy has to say.  I hope he can do something safely.  Don't want anyone getting hurt on this.

RHP Logging

I bucked a 4ft white oak off today in a similar situation.  The bigger the wood the more fun it is.  Id stand on the side of the bent over saplings and buck the top stem off.  That way the bend in the saplings will kick it out away from you.  After that the bottom should be somewhat easier. I'd like to hear what the tree guy will say.  Something over thought and overpriced I'm sure. Timber fallers deal with stuff like that everyday. Guys who work in town not so much.
Buckin in the woods

sandsawmill14

i agree with RHP fr as how i would do it BUT dont try yourself there can be alot of dangers you might be over looking  :)  and dont over look the root ball that one looks pretty small but it will still likely stand up when you cut the bottom one loose  i had some 3'+ oaks blow down that the root ball was 8-10' tall holding the tree 4'off the ground
any logger that has ever worked track of blow down after a tornado or just a big windstorm will tell you its the worst and most dangerous type of trees you can cut
let the tree guy do it if you can afford it and if he is completely nuts smiley_dizzy just let it lay it aint worth getting hurt over ;)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

sandsawmill14

if you let the tree guy do it try to be there and watch and try to learn from it  it will help if you ever have another one smiley_thumbsup
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

Gary_C

Quote from: RHP Logging on September 08, 2016, 08:24:47 PM
Timber fallers deal with stuff like that everyday. Guys who work in town not so much.

I agree.

A good logger/timber faller could get that tree down, but I can't see enough value there to take any risks or spend much money to get the tree on the ground.

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

timberlinetree

I think the only thing that is needed  is a chain saw to get it on the ground. I would Start at the fork and a wedge might help. Good luck and it is dangerous so someone with experience is a good idea.
I've met Vets who have lived but still lost their lives... Thank a Vet

Family man and loving it :)

lowpolyjoe

Thanks everybody

I was worried about it randomly toppling at some time in the future so I'd like to get it down.   Also, the top part is over my property line a little bit. 

Unfortunately the tree service didn't stop by yesterday as planned.  Hope to get in touch with them today. 

sandsawmill14

if you cant get them to come by most any full time logger should be able to cut it for you if you have friend in the business :)
hudson 228, lucky knuckleboom,stihl 038 064 441 magnum

red

Also looks like a great place to hide a body
Honor the Fallen Thank the Living

CCC4

I think I would cut the bottom leader first, since its dead and no good for anything I would jut come in from the bottom of the bottom leader and just nip away till she cracks and releases pressure. Then i would move up the leader about a foot and do the same thing till she released. Then probably do the same procedure with the top leader.

killamplanes

I personally would start at the top branch near the crotch, bore cut, leave some wood on bottom and pull saw out. Then start cutting from top till she breaks free make sure u read which side of the tree u need to be on. then ounce its down. a lot of pressure will be off the bottom one. and depending which way the pressure is on it u may reverse ur cut. But I would bring 2 saws with u cause if u don't read it right you will be pinched. Or plan "B" call a pro sit back have a cold one and enjoy the show......
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

WV Sawmiller

   Getting the pro is the smart thing to do.

    Not smart but what I'd likely do is get a long extension ladder and place it as high against the top as I could reach then and tie it off well then cut the top off. It would be wise to tie yourself off to. Be aware the top may spring up when the weight is removed. I cut a big WO that fell across my goat barn in Sandy like take several years ago but made the mistake of putting my arm between the top rung and the tree and was lucky I did not break my arm (Another dumb move I made in the past) when it raised up after the top was gone. Once the top is cut off you can buck off shorter sections till it is gone.

    Depending on what kind of wood is involved and if it is still green you might cut very slowly from the top till the top starts leaning to the ground and take the weight off. Could even do this is in a couple of stages moving back a few feet and repeating till you can cut through without it springing back. I did this with my WO over the barn roof cutting into firewood lengths to keep the weight down and not punch a hole in the tin roof. Dead wood or brittle wood like pine would not have  allowed me to do that.

    Be careful and don't over extend yourself.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

isawlogs

  With all du respect, going at this with a ladder is really , really not a good idea at all.... That my friend is the way to get medical attention real quick.  :o  That tree is dead ... Not knowing to what degree of decay is involved or how stable the trunk is, I would defenitly go at it from the bottom and work my way to the top.
  Wise thing for him to do is what he is doing, call someone that should know what to do.  :P
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

Ed_K

Ed K

lowpolyjoe

Thanks for the continued advice.  The tree guy apologized for missing us the other day and said he will try to stop by late today to take a look.

I used a ladder to cut the top off a tree a long time ago because I was not confident I could direct the fall of the full tree and my house and powerlines were within reach if I screwed it up.

After the top went down, the remaining trunk sprung back and forth several times and I was almost sent flying in the process.  Luckily I had tied the ladder to the tree.  I dropped the saw (luckily I was finishing up the cut with an electric 'toy' saw) and grabbed the remaining trunk and that saved me.

This is a different situation than a standing tree, but I expect there is still potential for spring effect.  I'm also worried about cutting this tree because it's been rotting for years and even a good plan could go south if you hit a pocket of rot and the cut snaps before you expect.


WV Sawmiller

    Remember - I never said it was smart, just what I would do.

    I started to cut a good sized ash last week, climbed up with a ladder then a climbing deer stand to attach a long cable which was hooked to my truck. I was going to cut the top then the rest of the tree but got nervous so just cut it down intact with my wife pulling after I had notched and bore cut it. I then cut the holding wood and it went where we wanted away from the barn and power lines.

    Always remember too - free advice is worth what you paid for it.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

square1

Let's call the side where you started video the front side.  First get a very stout rope or chain (preferred) around the top trunk about 5 feet up from the crotch, get a come-along from the chain to a tree on the front side (15~20' away).  Don't place any tension on the come-a-long yet, just take the slack out.  Working from behind the tree, begin cutting about 1 foot from the crotch.  1st cut would be in the top trunk perpendicular to the ground, up from the bottom a quarter of the diameter (if fairly decayed) to a third of the diameter (if fairly solid).  2nd cut would be down from the top to meet the 1st cut and would get two wedges (10~11 o'clock & 1~2 o'clock) in it as soon as possible.  As your 2nd cut nears the first, really watch the kerf closely to be certain it does not open toward you. Slow down, take small amounts out of the tree and watch that kerf.  My guess is you will cut through and the trunk may drop down a little if at all.  Once separated, use the come-along to pull it free from the crotch then re-position the come-along and pull the trunk to the right side of your computer screen as often as needed to buck it into rounds using the same up 1/3, then down to meet with wedges in every cut. Always watch that kerf as your 2nd cut (down from top) meets the first (up from bottom). 


You're on your own on the bottom trunk, that looks like poison ivy to me and i don't go near the stuff.

mills

Whew, that one will take some time. Be ready for a high estimate from the tree service. I would start at the butt if I was going to do it. Stay on the backside. Those small trees won't hold a lot, but should keep the tree from possibly kicking sideways. Once you start cutting do not step out in front of the log. Keep working you way up the tree until it's small enough that a chain and come along will pull it down.

lowpolyjoe

Always interesting to hear more approaches - thanks square1 and mills.

Still no word from the tree guy.  I think he forgot it was the weekend when he told us "i'll stop by tomorrow" on Friday night.

I've done a ton of thinking about this tree.  I've got two questions about a situation like this.

First, what is the thinking about removing spring trees first?  Is that ever done?  I was thinking about standing on the front side of the hung tree and cutting under the lower stem to take down the sprung tree near the crotch (possibly after making a small starting cut from the back side on the sprung tree).  My thinking was that the hung tree would either stay where it is or roll towards the spring as it goes down, hopefully leaving me with a safer layout when the dust clears.  Is it too dangerous to face the release of tension in the base of the spring even if you are expecting it?

Second, I was wondering about what I think is called a 'spear cut'.  if you leave all the sprung trees standing, the tree near the crotch would like to push the top stem 'forward' but likely cannot push all that weight on its own.  But if a diagonal cut is made such that the base of the top stem would slide forward at release, maybe the combined push of the spring and the slide of the cut could make it safe to cut from a position on the back side?  My worry with this approach is that the tip of the 'spear' might fracture because this tree is so rotten.

I don't expect to try these plans myself but would be interested to hear some feedback from the pros on issues with these approaches.

Thanks guys

schmism

what equipment do you have access to?

what is your perceived skill level in handling saws, dropping trees etc?


I have worked a bunch of similar trees in my woods that look exactly like yours.   I have a tractor and always start with it.  By useing the FEL i can move the tree around.  sometimes its enough to break something off and let tension out (rest on the ground)  other times it allows me to get an idea of which way things are being held up based on how they spring back when i push/pull/lift on them with the tractor.

Make shure you have more than one saw.   Just about every one of these i end up binding up on because im going very slow as to try to release the tension as slowly as possible.

JUSt remember they can and will go directions you dont expect.   I just cut out similar hung cherry about 14" dia at the base, yesterday.    After surveying it i choose a spot up by the first wye to take my first cut.  a limb about 5" diam.   I wittled away at it and about 3/4 the way through it started to snap and give.   It did not move up or down,  but sideways as the tree rolled over.   away from me.    Cant saying i was expecting it but i was standing on the side with clean escape behind me and had parked the tractor with bucket in the air next to me to give me more cover.
IT also pinched the nose of my bar in the cut.

Don't underestimate the advantage heavy equipment gives you in situations like this.   More than once I have just hooked a chain around the base and pulled the entire tree out away from the hang.   Id never be able to get it out of the woods hole like that, but getting it out of the hang were i have better control of it is the priority.
039 Stihl 010AV  NH TC33D FEL, with toys

lowpolyjoe

Thanks schmism.  I wish I had a tractor.  I debated buying a winch and securing it to a tree to pull stuff around.  I bought a very cheap come-along a while back but it turned out to be completely useless.

I have a Husky 455 Rancher and 2 small electric chainsaws.  I also had a small Ryobi gas saw but I can't get it running anymore.  If my Husky gets pinched it might be tough to get it out.  I've bucked a bunch of fallen trees over the years but only taken down 2 small ones myself, so my experience is minimal.

Turns out the tree service guy walked around my property early this morning and left an estimate in my mailbox and I didn't even realize it.  I'm bummed out that I didn't get a chance to talk with him while he was here.  Afterwards my wife texted him to let him know there was another tree (also fallen/leaning) we wanted a quote on so he said he'll take another trip by to look - I hope to catch him then.   Too bad we're having communication issues.  And I'm stuck and jury duty the next few days.

He was at $500 for this tree, but the quote said "removal", which is more than I want.  I just want him to lay it down.  I can buck it and stack it myself or leave it for the animals.


Ron Scott

Yes, be sure that the tree service knows the extent of the job that you want done. Also get bids on the job from other tree service professionals in the area if they are available.
~Ron

OH logger

I'm pretty sure the l;adder is the most dangerous tool if used on a tree job of any kind
john

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