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Low grade prices

Started by jdw, August 16, 2016, 06:50:00 PM

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jdw

What is the going rate for low grade logs? I seem to be having trouble getting tie logs and am giving 250 per thousand which is fair I think. Am I in the ballpark?

drobertson

Lots to consider here, but for starters way to low at least around here. Low grade is not the way to go, do some more home work you will find the spot,  ties have grade factors too, low grade logs from what I have seen too many potential negative factors
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

dustyhat

local mills around me are paying 400 back in the winter 450 to 475.

paul case

I am at $.35 delivered to my mill.

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

killamplanes

500 bdft here is the start of tie logs. Blocking 320-350 Doyle bdft..
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

Luke_Eames

I'm paying around .32 per BF delivered of low grade oak.  Most of it is 3 face clear.   
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123maxbars

I have been paying .30 for low grade oak, paid .20 yesterday for some but they had lots of bird peck,
Sawyer/Woodworker/Timber Harvester
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jdw

Yea the average around here was .25 prices are still low. I saw someone said they pay 500 per thousand how can you make profit at that price?

Peter Drouin

Matt logs $.52  10" top+ 16' long. And all the log has to be is straight and sound.
Allot of beech, here, is cut for that.

A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

bkaimwood

My best case scenario for such logs is .35 a bf...
bk

killamplanes

500mbf on Doyle scale u can make money. I know several mills around here doing it semi loads at a time. Margins are tight but the real key is gettin to $ on the side lumber rather pallet,flooring etc.
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

killamplanes

U take a straight 13in log scales 40bft doyle take a 29 dollar tie and couple boards say 32-35$ u paid 20 and that's low grade log with pallet boards. 12-15 dollars nothing to sneeze about. Like anything its not a get rich quick scheme either.. And the logs are not on the deck long like sawing 4/4 lumber all the way thru..
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

paul case

I know a mill near me that does just that with as many logs as he can get with a cleerman  circle mill and vertical edger. I believe he told me they can make as many as 200 ties per day. He DOES NOT pay $.50 for logs last I knew.

They can saw more logs in 15 minutes than we can saw in a day.
PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

killamplanes

Well I log pretty steady 6 months out of the year. And I am glad to receive the prices for logs that we get here. Competition is ruff for mills I here it all the time. To many sawmills not enough loggers. I would agree but on the flip side bidding jobs on the stump is tuff.pockets get deep. I can only afford to keep my low end tie logs for my mill. I don't want to get in to serious cutting grade. I also need the side lumber to feed my pallet operation. I cut some blocking but take most of it to a circle mill nearby. Most my logs travel 3 hours round trip to fetch high prices do to about 10 mills in a 10 mile area were I go.. So moral of the story is I am probly not that far ahead if a guy next door paid 350mbft do to my cost of travel.  Which is very costly
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

ozarkgem

Quote from: paul case on August 20, 2016, 10:39:39 AM
I know a mill near me that does just that with as many logs as he can get with a cleerman  circle mill and vertical edger. I believe he told me they can make as many as 200 ties per day. He DOES NOT pay $.50 for logs last I knew.

They can saw more logs in 15 minutes than we can saw in a day.
PC
How many people does it take to make 200 ties a day?  Kind of makes you want one of them.
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Ron Wenrich

With a good automatic mill, you can do it with 4 guys.  Sawyer, loader operator, off bearer-edgerman, stacker.  Loader operator can also help stack lumber and debark.  A green chain also acts as a surge deck.  You don't handle any of the waste.   Slabs are chipped, dust is blown into a trailer.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

killamplanes

I've got a guy I go to with an electric lt70. Sawyer, offbearer that feeds edger than a stacker. They pile waste edges and couple times a day take to burn pile. Dust is blown etc. They keep cutting with 2 people while trucks come in to load unload etc. I bet with decent logs there tapping on the door of 100 a day. But he would never tell me. Fear of me now in how good he is doin. Really nice operation low overhead family business. Where they make there money is consistently keeping the blade running threw wood no big breaks, 5 1/2 days a week consistent.  Not a race but a marathon. He pays good  for good logs 75% load has to make tie or he will cut you of, I know.  But my guess he is at 100 a day but I might be of. Of course at some point you would have to cut the logs that won't make tie. So that day wouldn't count.
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

killamplanes

He has probly 30 ft 2 strand live deck that dumps log on mills loading arm. Which is nice cause it's all in a building, in bad weather he doesn't go outside but a couple times a day. He has learned alot in 30yrs cutting ties. I am sure he has forgot more than I know.
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

Ron Wenrich

Circle mill is double that on 8' logs.  I think the highest I was at was 250 in a day, but 200 was average.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

killamplanes

I don't dought that a bit. Theres a clip floating on here of a hurdle mill cutting at absolute record speeds. I don't know how long an operator can keep that pace up or if a mill could get that many logs in to feed that pace. But also a mill owner would want to look at the efficiencies of a mill horsepower, operating cost, and a big one byproduct. Like sawdust, a circle mill will create a lot more of it with the thicker kerf. But production is were a circle mill shines. If I was running blocking, pallet stock, etc(low end stuff only) I personally would not consider a bandmill. Also for the reason that the logs have more rot in them that's why there going to a blocking mill, and the bands don't like the rot(atleast mine don't last long in it). but with the lower grade wood here prices are very competitive so here its a production thing. Fill as many semis as possible. Here most blocking mills cant the lumber and send it threw a gangsaw chopsaw combination and kick out finish product at the other end. But with this comes a stack of sawdust.   Anyway I getting of topic. But I am fortunate to go to fair amount of mills hauling selling logs and get to see the differences, similarities, and efficiencies of each. And then I come home and look at my little dog and pony show :D :D :D
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

paul case

My neighbor has a vertical edger so no edger man. All waste is put on a conveyor to the chipper. Short green chain has lumber racks on one side and a hydraulic stacker (stack track) on the other side for ties and cants. Pretty slick operation. The owner/sawyer is 3rd generation and he sits in his heated/ ac cab and watches dish network while he saws.

PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
sawing oak.hickory,ERC,walnut and almost anything else that shows up.
Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

Ron Wenrich

Sawdust doesn't have to be a problem.  We have pellet mills that pay a high price, as well as farmers that use it for bedding.  Never had a problem getting rid of it at a good price. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

killamplanes

Ya sawdust a pain here. The quistions are walnut been cut cause horse bedding, has it been wet. On and on pain. Mountains of it go to waist around here.
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

Okrafarmer

Yep, you're in walnut country, Killam. I wonder if you every make walnut RR ties? Around here it's so precious, we make it all into retail wood, no matter how ugly it is-- the uglier it is, the better it sells, sometimes! To a point.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

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Okrafarmer

Quote from: Okrafarmer on August 23, 2016, 04:44:15 PM
Yep, you're in walnut country, Killam. I wonder if you every make walnut RR ties? Around here it's so precious, we make it all into retail wood, no matter how ugly it is-- the uglier it is, the better it sells, sometimes! To a point.

I should say, "I used to" and "I hope to again" make it all into retail wood.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

killamplanes

Well u see a little bit walnut tie but it pretty rare. It's like sometimes white oak, value wise sometimes it's better to take the boards than the tie. But my logging side of my business walnut makes up 30% of sales and some weeks during heart of winter I hardly cut anything but wo and walnut.  The red, black oak etc market stays pretty stable here but with the 3 of us (me,myself, and i) . I don't hardly buy a timber without a good ratio of wo and walnut. But when I have time in the summer I do clear cuts and stuff and whatever goes on that. Mat logs on what I can not make ties and blocking for the shorter stuff. A poor tree I cut down may be divided between up to 5 mills
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

Okrafarmer

If you divide a tree among five mills, it sounds like you are wringing everything you can out of it-- sounds like responsible resource allocation, to me!

Walnut is probably <1% of what grows around here. But we also have around 100+ indigenous millable species in this area, too. A lot of RO, WO, SYP, YP, and SG around here, followed by smaller numbers of more interesting things. :)
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

killamplanes

That is one thing I struggle with on this forum. PINE. We have no natural pine here. Maybe a yard tree or 2 floating around. I have never cut or milled a pine wouldn't no a yellow from white.  But it's a very large market in the world just not my tiny world.  But we got cottonwood and sycamore as plentiful as corn fields.  And there good enough for me.  They are my low end trees. But we have markets for the lumber not great markets but markets. ;D
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

BigZ La

What do you do with most of your cottonwood?? Mostly ties or do you use it for other things. Thanks for any info.

killamplanes

Not aloud to make ties out of cottonwood or pine here. Cottonwood makes crane mats. Some low end pallets use it. We use it for pole buildings, not in contact with ground or in weather. So like 2x4 your sheeting screws to etc. Shake is the lumber no.1 problem because the roots lIke sitting in water.  3x3 blocking for flatbed truck drivers. It's a soft wood but still use able in select applications. In log form 250mbf blocking price. 420+-mbft crane mats. Prices vary but that's locally.
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

Okrafarmer

Do you have sweetgum up there? It's our substitute for cottonwood here. Cottonwood is rare in these parts.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

killamplanes

Not much sweetgum here. Mainly a yard tree that's been planted. I couldn't imagine going out to timber carpeted with there spikee little balls.  But I believe you can make tie out of them. I never heard u couldnt. All I know cottonwood, popular, pine can't make tie atleast.
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

Okrafarmer

Actually they say they like the sweetgum quite well for ties, as well as construction matting. It does rot bad, but that's why they treat the ties, after all.

Seetgum has a natural ability to flex. It has a massively interlocking grain, which makes it very very tough and split-proof for its weight. It's very hard to split with a splitting maul, but hydraulic splitters handle it ok. For all of that, it is very clean-cutting wood-- one of the easiest I've come across to sawmill. You;ll get miles of sweetgum on a single blade before you have to swap it out.

Supposedly, I'm told, the SG ties are able to flex when the train goes over them without tending to break up over time as readily as some of the more inflexible hardwoods do.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

Okrafarmer

Quote from: killamplanes on August 24, 2016, 07:01:14 AM
Not much sweetgum here. Mainly a yard tree that's been planted. I couldn't imagine going out to timber carpeted with there spikee little balls.  But I believe you can make tie out of them. I never heard u couldnt. All I know cottonwood, popular, pine can't make tie atleast.

Oh, uh, regarding what's in bold: That's one good reason to wear work boots while working in the woods. Just saying. . . . .  :D
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

killamplanes

Easy cutting is why I like sycamore. Blade slides right threw it and there very tall and hold there diameter all the way up. They tend to have shake on first log and sometimes cut that deep red heart which neither will make tie but over half usually make tie. I love the lumber for my pallet operation it's easy on the nail gun and fairly light weight wood. My brother in law lives in Nashville TN and there's alot sg there.
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

Okrafarmer

Funny you say that about the sycamore. I've found it to be a very heavy wood here, at least when green. Not as heavy as oak, I suppose, but close. I agree it cuts pretty nice, but it seems to want to warp pretty bad, with a lot of tension right on the mill. Sweetgum can be like that too. But I like milling either one of them, and the big logs from either one make some beautiful lumber, especially quarter-sawn on the sycamore. I hope I get a chance to QS some big sweetgum some time and see how it turns out.

In my opinion, both sycamore and sweetgum are highly undervalued grade lumber. They make beautiful furniture, etc. But don't mess around trying to get nice boards out of logs less than 16" diameter with either one of them.  ;D Pallet and ties are a good choice for the littler logs.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

killamplanes

I agree some of decorations picture frames etc. Around my house are made of sycamore. My wife goes out to the mill walks by walnut, cherry ,wo pile straight to sycamore. Gets what she wants and heads to the house. It does tend to twist. But I find air nailing it down to a pallet it stays stable. But here it is very light weight big diffirence between it and any oak, probly lighter than ash. Very undervalued I believe. I got 12 logs on deck right now half sycamore half low end red oak. One man's trash is another's treasure. I will take a couple ties out to finish a load and back to pallet stock. 270 pallets last week got me running short on lumber. Well atleast certain stuff. I have a little operation repairing an odd ball pallet a local company uses. It's great for my mill they own probly 50 different pallets made of every thickness and deminsion none to man. One size wood doesn't work. U just cut a ton of different dimensions etc. And watch the pile disappear into the repairs. Challenging but very niche in the aspect of variety of pallets. Great for low end wood. And that's what kills me on transportation both log or lumber form.
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

Okrafarmer

Sounds like you have a good little thing going there, Killamplanes. I hope you're able to get niche prices for your niche pallet material, too! :)

I haven't been much to Illinois, but have seen what Indiana hardwoods look like-- looks like a real nice area for hardwoods-- if you can find them between the cornfields!
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

killamplanes

I believe there's alot of opportunitys out there for a small sawmill. Expecially if a person can figure out a way to take a tree to final product or goods.  And without employees if a person doesn't want the responsibilty. It takes alot of work but so doesn't anything worth doing. Low grade wood is probably the most common lumber around and the least competitive to buy. I know alot of high end loggers that would only buy walnut and wo that went broke. Not saying that it can't happen to anybody. But diversity and exploring opportunitys is the way I have made what I have. From being a dealer in planes owning 28 over the years to farms in mississippi, to forestry and on and on.  I have forced myself to not focus all my time, energy and investments on one business. Though argueble I may have bèen better off. I choose to not put all my eggs in one basket and enjoy the diversity of doing different things.  Drives my wife nuts but I was this way before she was around. And my 3yr old and 6 yrs old think that it's normal. I am not trying to glott but challenge people to think out of the box and not take the easy route. Life's to short. I hate to know how many times people told me (that's a stupid idea). I got the last laugh most of the time. And my little pallet gig has already turned out in the green. I will ride it out and see were it goes. I will not over invest in it because I don't want to have to see high production numbers for profit. But it will be added to one of my 4 other businesses actually supporting the logging or mill or vice versu. Sorry for being long winded..
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

Okrafarmer

No, you're right, killam. finding the niches is where it's at.
He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Psalm 91:1

Operating a 2020 Woodmizer LT35 hydraulic for Upcountry Sawmill, Dacusville, SC

Now selling Logrite tools!

Writing fiction and nonfiction! Check my website.

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