Tracked or 6 Wheel Harvester? Fixed Head or Dangle Head? Pros and Cons Please

[danbuendgen]

This summer I took the plunge and I picked up an older Rottne SMV Rapid forwarder. I have always cut with a chain saw and used a small cable skidder. Within the next year or so I would like to get a harvester. I'm 30, I see the industry changing, there a need to cut lots of low grade wood. I have foresters telling me if I get a harvester they could throw a lot of work at me.

I'm still learning about the CTL system, and would like to hear about guys experience with different types of harvesters and heads. Part of me would like to get another older Rottne for a harvester so that way I would have two similar machines that I can get familiar with. But I have worked around tracked harvesters and like those as well.
What are the pros and cons of tracks vs 6 wheels?
Which works better on steep ground?
Which is easier to operate and maintain?
What are the pros and cons of fixed or dangle heads?
What are things to look at when shopping around/what are good questions to ask the seller?
I live in southern Vermont. We have a fair amount of steep and rough terrain here. My plan would be to cut all the small and low grade wood with a harvester and all the larger trees with a chain saw. What type of machine would work well for my area and wood type? I see both wheeled and tracked harvesters in my area, so I know both must work well enough here, but what do you guys think?

No matter what, I would be looking at a older machine. I don't want to get a big bank loan for it. I'm a smaller producer and work alone. I spend a fair amount of time selling split firewood, it was supposed to be for side work, but not it seems to keep me very busy in the summer and fall. I know with a older machine I will have to be working on it. But if I have a smaller loan it seems more feasible. Plus, It seems like newer machines brake down a fair amount also. Then it's broke down, and I would still have a big payment... Also, With a older harvester, I wont have to worry so much about epa emissions.
Any info would be greatly appreciated.

[chevytaHOE5674]

I'm currently running a 6w rubber tired machine and before that ran a Timbco with a fabtek 4 roller head on it. On real steep ground a tracked machine with a leveling cab has the advantage. There were times I pushed myself up hills with the boom and then "tossed" the wood up or down the hill for the forwarder. But a rubber tire machine with over the tire tracks and chains will climb some seriously steep ground as well.

Id say rubber tires are easier to operate as you can drive just about anywhere you want without fear of tearing up roads/trails/bridges/etc (I've driven the current rubber tired machine down the blacktop many times to move job to job without having to pay a lowboy). Also rubber tires are smoother riding and you can cover a lot of ground in a hurry if you want. As far as maintenance goes, the undercarriage on a tracked machine is expensive to replace and can wear quickly depending on the terrain and how far you track. But having 6 tires to maintain and replace is also very expensive, as well as the added cost of OTT tracks, and possible chains. With rubber tires you also have 2 axles and 6 plantaries to maintain.   

IMO/IME Fixed vs Dangle head is a personal thing. I hear guys say how there fixed head machine can cut and process bigger wood, which is true but when they get into smaller stuff they are slow. I'm currently cutting plenty of 20-25" hard maple with a dangle head machine. Also most dangle head machines have an extension boom giving you plenty of reach which is great in lower grade pulp sales as you don't have to move and re-position the machine as often. It is generally easier to make nicer looking piles of wood for the forwarder with a fixed head machine. After running both I would have a hard time going back to a fixed head machine anymore.   

As for looking at older machines be very careful. Many of the older harvesters are becoming obsolete and parts are hard/impossible to find, (I'm running a 2002 Ponsse and the computer system is obsolete and new parts aren't available, so when Ponsse's stack of used junk is gone its a $20K upgrade and rewire to bring it to current tech) Electrical problems can drive an operator to suicide... haha. There are the obvious things to look for in any machine though, pins/bushings, leaks, hoses, cracks in the processing head, cracks/repairs to the boom.

[Gary_C]

That's some very good advice. I too have a 2002 six wheel Ponsse with a dangle head and for a small operator like me I would never consider a tracked machine. Yes they can give you more muscle for larger trees but they are rough riding, more difficult to move (need to be left out in the woods to limit travel distance), and you can easily drop $30K into track and undercarriage maintenance.

I try to stick to pine on the tops of the hills and in the valleys but still get some sloped ground that a wheeled machine will handle almost as good as the fixed head tracked machines. But the self leveling tracked machines are best in the steepest terrain.

Good luck in finding a good, low priced, older harvester. There are some older machines out there that were abused, not maintained, or never worked well when new. It's usually best to talk to the previous owner to find out the weaknesses and impending problems. Nothing beats a good inspection and perhaps a trial run in addition to talking to previous owners/operators.

[AlexHart]

Its totally not what you asked but you might want to at least consider a Bell.   I've had one for going on 2 years now and I've been making pretty good progress with it.   It doesn't come all at once but I find myself getting better and better with it and I wouldn't want to go back to not having one that's for sure.   I remember several months ago I was intimidated to try cutting a big pine tree with it and the first one was a little shaky but after no time at all I was just smoking 'em.  We still don't use it on really nice big hardwood but with enough skill I think you probably could just do that also.   The thing has been a pleasant revelation on a lot of things.... It does better on hillsides than I thought it would, it waddles around in the rocks better than I thought it would, you can stack with it, sort logs decently, you can run it all freaking day and "maybe" burn 10 gallons of fuel. 

A lot of it is that give and take thing.   How big of an operator do you want to be?   Talk of 20K upgrades and undercarriages and stuff.... a Bell barely even costs 20k  !    Your probably looking at 4 gallons burned for every 1 with a big tracked buncher.   I think one of my strengths as well as one of my weaknesses is that I don't think big.   I think small.   You start slinging around 100K machines and 20K upgrades and 8 loads a week and all that and I just get very uncomfortable quick.   I don't do debt personally and when your kicking butt and putting out all these loads and all of a sudden the mill shuts you down (or simply SHUTS down... we've had that happen) or the X market goes downhill or you have trouble lining up another job right away.   So I don't know...  thinking small might hold you back on the one hand but it also keeps you from getting your head taken off but forces outside of your control that you didn't plan for.   

Plus you know how logging goes.   You can wheel and deal machinery.   It might not be a terrible idea to consider getting a Bell or something to "stick your toe in the water"    There's no law that says you couldn't flip it after awhile or trade it in.   I look at videos of Rolley Risley heads and all that and daydream myself but I'm not sure I could ever see myself actually putting out the money to go that crazy.   Its not just the initial cost of acquisition that intimidates me personally but the cost of operation.    The wood your cutting isn't magically worth more after you put a $5000 new pump on your buncher or a $7500 new valve bank. 

I was sitting on a trailer with the guy I bought my Bell from and he told me if you run a Bell I can guarantee you'll make money.   If you buy a big tracked feller buncher you are not guaranteed to make money.   You actually may do better.... but you may not.   I'm not sure if that quite rises to the "words of wisdom" level or not but that has stuck with me.     

[danbuendgen]

Thanks for all the advise so far. Just to make this clear for people: I DON'T WANT A FELLER BUNCHER. I'm wanting a harvester for a cut to length operation. The only Bell machines I have seen are just bunchers, but maybe some have a processing head. I don't know.
I think a wheeled harvester would better suit my needs. In any bigger timber I plan to just cut it by hand with a chain saw and buck it up for the forwarder. Or if the forwarder can't get to it, that's what my 240 is for. I know finding an older harvester that wont have a ton of issues will be a needle in a hay stack. Most of the ones I have looked at were very beat up and hammered on and are 100k or more. I would like to find one for less. I picked up my forwarder for 22k and it has a few little issues, but overall I feel like it was a steal. All the major repairs have recently been done by the last owner. So I think with some patience I hope to find a decent harvester when the time comes.

[1270d]

I have run only wheeled ctl machines.  Very limited experience operating tracked machines.   I have worked alongside and behind a timbco and now timber pro leveling bunchers.   

I quite often cut stuff with my wheeled harvester that the leveling tracked machine can't get.  Whether because of wet/soft ground, rock bluffs or long reach.   The fixed head/tracked stuff is powerful and a bit cheaper than dangle/rubber tire harvesters. 

Probably what you look at would depend on your personality and operating  style.   If you embrace technology and all the advantages and headaches that come with it go with a rubber tired dangle head.  If simple mechanical type machines with minimal electronics suits you, look at the tracked stuff with a fixed head.

Machines on rubber are much more comfortable and harvesters don't go through tires or bogie parts very often.  I have never done a tire on a harvester in close to 15000 hours.  Some day it will hhappen of course.

2006-2009 1270's with 15k or so hours are not too much over 100k right now which seems like a deal for the machine you are getting.

You'll be giving up some of the ability to just say bag it I'm going home, but have ac in the summer, heat in the winter and a safer work environment.   Still can hand cut the big stuff to keep that part of you happy.

[wannaergo]

I'll second all that was said about the rubber tired machines. Ponsse in Rhinelander has stacks of used ergos that you could get for a song right now...

[Corley5]

I have a love hate relationship with my Fabtek 133 and 4 roller head.  That's all I've got to say  ;D

[danbuendgen]

I should be on my way to work, but instead I'm reading this and looking at some Rottne Harvesters. There are a few online under 50-60k in the era of my forwarder. Here are a few I looked at:

https://forestryequipmentsales.com/20/HarvestersProcessors/3751/2001-Rottne-SMV-Harvester.html

https://forestryequipmentsales.com/20/HarvestersProcessors/1436/Rottne-Rapid-SMV-Harvester-SOLD.html
This one sold, but gives me an idea of whats out there...

https://forestryequipmentsales.com/20/HarvestersProcessors/2773/Rottne-SMV-Rapid-EGS-Harvester.html

http://www.lumbermenonline.com/for-sale/1995-Rottne-SMV-Harvesters-and-Processors?itemid=35795

I like the look of the last one, but its in NC.
How many forwarder loads can a decent operator cut in a day with one of these machines? How big of trees can they handle? I cut a lot of hardwood, but also pine, hemlock, and spruce. Like I said, I don't mind getting out and hand cutting anything too big for a harvester. I still want to get some exercise here and there, I don't want to get too fat! Mostly it would be for all the low grade crap. I feel like I could cut on rain days, or when the ground conditions are wet, and when things dry out, forward out all the cut wood. I would hope that getting more mechanized would extend my operating days per year and be able to work longer hours, and make my job much safer overall.

[snowstorm]

the one that sold was in your backyard....almost the one you said was in nc is not its up here

[Ed_K]

 The hills of Vt. are not something I'd want to run a wheeled machine on  ;D .

[danbuendgen]

the one that sold was in your backyard....almost the one you said was in nc is not its up here

Hmmm, for some reason I thought I saw it was from NC. I guess not.

[snowstorm]

i worked on that machine. its not far from here. this is how bethl equipment works they find a machine on say craigs list contact the owner saying i think i know someone that would be interested. next thing you know its on there website for sale. forestry equip sales isnt much different. i was talking with someone that listed a machine with them. he wanted 50k they listed it at 65k if they sold it they make 15k. not bad for a internet ad

[snowstorm]

The hills of Vt. are not something I'd want to run a wheeled machine on  ;D .

i have worked on hills that i had the load the forwarder going down the hill. going up you couldn't keep the wood on

[MUDDY]

One thing I would keep in mind is where are the majority of your jobs located. Somewhat residential or in the sticks?  Large sales or small? Nothing against you guys running rubber tires and dangle heads,  I think they're awesome machines.  But around here on small lots with lots of property lines, overhead lines, etc,  a big machine just really isn't that practical.  Plus with a fixed head and tracks it is much easier to fix ruts, spread gravel to make an approach for a landing, etc.

[chevytaHOE5674]

But around here on small lots with lots of property lines, overhead lines, etc,  a big machine just really isn't that practical

Job I'm on now is a bunch of 10-20 acre units with two sets of high voltage transmission lines going through them. So there are lots of property lines and wires to worry about and I have no trouble putting the trees within the sale boundary and getting them out from around the wires, just takes some cleaver maneuvering and cutting.

Assuming your talking about a fixed head machine on an excavator chassis that has a blade for doing dirt work? That is what a dozer or your forwarder are for.

[Ken]

I went down the road of buying a well used, high hours harvester (tracked with dangle head) for my first one.  I learned a great deal about cutting with a harvester and the associated break downs that come along with it.  After 3 years I upgraded to a new machine and have had much better luck.  If you are mechanically inclined and have good dealer support it can certainly be done.   Just be prepared to have a significant amount of head scratching days/nights.

[danbuendgen]

One thing I would keep in mind is where are the majority of your jobs located. Somewhat residential or in the sticks?  Large sales or small? Nothing against you guys running rubber tires and dangle heads,  I think they're awesome machines.  But around here on small lots with lots of property lines, overhead lines, etc,  a big machine just really isn't that practical.  Plus with a fixed head and tracks it is much easier to fix ruts, spread gravel to make an approach for a landing, etc.

Every job is different. Some are large, some are small. I spread gravel with the skidder blade. Or if a landing needs to be built, I hire a buddy of mine who does dirt work for a living. I don't often have much issues with ruts on my jobs. I pack the main trails in with brush, or corduroy bad areas, that does a good job keeping the mud at bay. The landing however can get nasty quick in the fall, but again, I just back drag it with the skidder.

Currently both the skidder and forwarder need some work and tlc projects. Skidder needs pin work, front tires and chains, and the brakes don't hold that well. Not sure on everything the forwarder needs, but I just changed out the gear oil out in the transfer case, and a ton of metal shavings came out... My hands looked like they were covered in sliver glitter. Any idea what it would cost to rebuild a Rottne transfer case? I also changed out the crane base oil, and it was full of water.... I should probably hold off on a harvester for a little bit and try to get one for next year. Or once I get a handle on the equipment I have now. Meanwhile, I want to learn more about harvesters and when I'm ready to buy, I know what I'm in for.

I have heard guys say to buy a machine with a head you like, because switching heads is expensive and kind of a pain. What heads do you ctl guys like? Are there any brands to stay away from? What have people had good luck with? Do some work better in softwood rather then in hardwood?

Thanks to everyone for the advice.

[danbuendgen]

Just be prepared to have a significant amount of head scratching days/nights.

I hear ya, that's where I'm at now! My skidder is almost 40 years old. Who knows the hours on it. And the forwarder is a 95 with 22,xxx hours...
Do you feel like the higher monthly payment is cheaper in the long run, because of less downtime? I'm sure it must be, or no one would do it. I'm just afraid of big payments, then having brake downs on top of it.

[Corley5]

AIS in Williamsburg, Mi has a 415 Timbco with a Slingshot head.  Not much in the way of electronics on them 8) and they do work 

[Ken]

Do you feel like the higher monthly payment is cheaper in the long run, because of less downtime? I'm sure it must be, or no one would do it. I'm just afraid of big payments, then having brake downs on top of it.

I was told by some wise people that if you can afford to run old you can afford to run new.  I would sure like to justify a new or much newer forwarder ( mine has 39000+ hours) but the harvester is the key machine.  Wood on the ground is like money in the bank (almost)

[Woodhauler]

I would buy new or a newer one! I learned my lesson years ago when I bought my first truck! One used truck was all I needed to work 20hours a day!! 15hours hauling and wrenching the rest! I would lots rather pay a bigger payment then work on things. With the pulp market the way it is you should be able to find a nice newer harvester for fair money.

[snowstorm]

a new ctl machine would be 5 to 600k. anyone just starting out would have a hard time paying for it. find a good used machine and you have to be able to work on it yourself

[danbuendgen]

a new ctl machine would be 5 to 600k. anyone just starting out would have a hard time paying for it. find a good used machine and you have to be able to work on it yourself

That was my impression as well. I look at used harvesters with low hours and they are 300k. I work alone, I can only operate one machine at a time. So doubt I would be able to produce enough wood for those type of payments. Honestly, if a lender looked at my taxes, they would laugh at me trying to borrow that kind of money! If I had a guy to partner up with, and we could operate 10 hours 5 or 6 days a week I think that would be possible.

I just talked with a logger the other day with a cut to length crew with new equipment (2 forwarders and one harvester, and a log truck and pup) and they need to operate from 5am to 5pm 6 days per week to keep the ball rolling... The truck starts at 3am and goes until 5pm, 7 days a week, and still can't keep up with them. If that what it takes to make those payments count me out. I love to work, and I like to log, but I don't like it that much. You only live once, I would like to have time to make it home for dinner, hunt, fish, and take the dog for a walk!

[bushmechanic]

Danbuenden we bought a used 2000 Rottne SMV EGS harvester last fall as a spare machine, just like the third one you looked at. It has been a pretty reliable machine, has the Deere engine and Logmax 5000 head on it. That year of logmax has a simple computer system on it, 25 wire cable with one wire to one function, not to hard to troubleshoot. We also have a 2003 Timberjack 1070 harvester, a lot more complex with the computer systems but it has a 5.9 liter Cummins in it and is dirt cheap on fuel. If you buy old you better get used to using your multimeter... a lot! :D