Tie Liability

[4x4American]

I had a tie buyer at the mill yesterday and he was saying that they end plate each tie and they put the mill that sawed it's name on it and that if theres an accident it's a huge liability.  Is this something I should be worried about?  They pay good and it's FOB mill, so that part is good, but...My name on a tie that extradinary amounts of $ is going over just gives me a bad taste in my mouth.  In my eyes, I'm selling them a raw material that they are further processing to make it a marketable rr tie.  Should I be held liable?  Wouldn't it make more sense if the guy who graded it was held liable?  They have a market for ties that didn't pass, so to me, I'd like to send my good, bad and ugly, and let them decide which ones will be ties and which ones they send for ikg or whatever its called. 

Eh?

[Kbeitz]

Include on your stamp that your tie is good for 1lb max per sq inch...
No way no how would I get into that... There just trying to push
the responsibility off on to the next person.

[4x4American]

There's a thought...I can't control what is written on the plate but I can write on all the invoices that

[esteadle]

Never heard of this, but I would Run... now.
This is clearly an effort to move the liability to the small pockets (you).
The rail market is owned by billionaires who have lawyers.
When lawyers are involved, you could do every single thing right, and still lose.
Because they tie you up in court, and make you pay one of them to defend you.

Even if you think you can make money on it, and would be willing to accept it, think long term.
If Koppers and the rest of them start doing this to you, they have a way to do it to everyone.
If you refuse to cooperate, then they will move to the next supplier.
But if he also refuses, and so do the rest, then they can't get supply and will have to back off.
Best thing to do is follow your gut and not accept that. Stop it now, while it's getting started.
Otherwise, we will all end up targets of lawsuits for future rail accidents.

[4x4American]

I did a job over in shushan ny awhile back I had posted the pics of a train that passed right by.  There was a train hauling topsoil I believe on that thing all day and the track was hardly supported.  If they can run up and down that line without hardly any cross ties than I don't see how I could be held liable for my cross tie. maybe the engineer should take the heat instead.  It's a mad mad mad mad mad mad mad mad world

[Tree Dan]

That all sounds way too fishy to me.
They could put your name(Stamp) on someone elses tie.

I would  change your invoices with the discriptions of the ties.
Better still dont work for them.

[4x4American]

That all sounds way too fishy to me.
They could put your name(Stamp) on someone elses tie.

I would  change your invoices with the discriptions of the ties.
Better still dont work for them.

Yea but I mean...a 7x9 tie is a 7x9 tie how could I describe them any better than that?  They get them, end trim them, plate them, and then do the treat.  And he was saying that by doing something they eliminate the tie from twisting

[Tree Dan]

That all sounds way too fishy to me.
They could put your name(Stamp) on someone elses tie.

I would  change your invoices with the discriptions of the ties.
Better still dont work for them.

Yea but I mean...a 7x9 tie is a 7x9 tie how could I describe them any better than that?  They get them, end trim them, plate them, and then do the treat.  And he was saying that by doing something they eliminate the tie from twisting

I would call them "7x9 posts."
"Please note that these posts are not graded."
Imo there not RR Ties untill they are graded and compleated.
If they dont like it, dont work for them.
Like I said, its too fishy and they want to have a fall guy if something goes wrong.

[WV Sawmiller]

   Sounds hokey to me. How can you be responsible when you are not selling a finished product. You have no control over the follow-on treatment the tie got after it left your yard. How about the adjacent ties? Were they up to spec? You have no control over that. Was your tie a replacement put in between others that were no longer up to code?

    I think I'd put on my invoice "Tie inspected by buyer and verified to meet customer specifications as to size and material listed in the contract".

[4x4American]

Good ideas.  Now what's this mean I have to go ask a lawyer what will hold up in court? 

[WV Sawmiller]

    Another thought might be to specify that you are just selling a hardwood beam/cant of a specified size and material for unspecified use then let the liability for end item application rest with the buyer. You don't know if he intends to put it under a railroad track or for landscaping timbers nor do you care what he uses it for.

[4x4American]

Another good point.  But don't ya think the judge would say, you knew dang well that you were selling to a major rr tie company

[jmouton]

i dont know,,, i think i would run,, way too many  frivolous lawsuits today ,  need alot of insurance to cover it,


                                                             jim

[Ox]

I like the post ideas.  Sell them posts.  It's not your fault if they decide to use a short post as a railroad tie, is it?  ;)

[Furu]

Unless it was plated at time of acceptance and there was an adequate chain of documentation/custody to ensure that your ties were ID'ed separately from "John Smith's" ties it would be hard to prove in a court of law that plates they installed after grading, preserving etc was indeed a tie you supplied. Also any mishandling of the product by them while processing them would be a contributor to any failure.

HOWEVER 
The court cost that you would go through to get to that point would break you. 

As several have stated do not deal with them under these conditions as you will have major legal issues and costs even if you win in the long run.

[Brad_S.]

 Something doesn't seem right here. I am a railfan and I have never heard of a derailment or accident caused by a defective tie.
Broken or misaligned rails, defective equipment and human error? Yes. A single defective tie? Never.

[paul case]

They more than likely are tracking how good your ties grade before and after treating. I know of a few who have had tie buyers quit buying from them over grade of ties. Myself included.

If you don't like the attitude of a buyer on the start, you probably wont like him when he quits you or culls 3 ties in a bundle. Find A Different Buyer.

PC

[BigZ La]

I would list them on the invoice as a 7x9 ungraded cant. If you want to be protected further than I would set up a separate corporation that buys and sells these ungraded cants and only invoice them to tie buyers. By doing this they could only come after the corp that sells the cants and not the sawyer.

[WV Sawmiller]

   OK, probably beating a dead horse again. If you are uncomfortable with the agreement cancel your contract and back away.

   If it were me I would not be so concerned. I am not a graduate engineer legally required or expected to know the load bearing capacity of a piece of wood nor was I required to perform any such tests on the wood I provided. Further, I do not have any control over how the wood was treated once it left my hands. Was it properly and promptly treated? Was it properly installed? What were the conditions of the section of the track where it was used? High and dry or in the middle of a swamp where it was wet most of the time? Were the trains that ran over the rails above all inspected to ensure the load and speeds were properly applied?

    As I said before all you can certify is that when the wood left your yard it was inspected and met the requirements of the applicable purchase contract as to material type, size and grade. You never set up the specifications for use nor should or could you be held accountable it they were wrong or the wood was mishandled after it left your hands IMO. If I were on the jury you'd be a free man.

[killamplanes]

I think Paul case hit the nail on the head. Tie buyers watch u like a hawk if u r new or try sticking a couple bad ones in the center. On the other hand if u r a consist supply of ties they will really push the Grey area. I know first hand. The liability thing I wouldn't lose any sleep I now a ton of mills with deep pockets if they were liable of there ties they wouldn't make them nor me.  Next the land owner liable of the tree that made the 7x9. And here its pretty common to put ur account i believe are the numbers on a bundle of ties that way they will pick up a  pattern of bad ties in bundles from a paticular mill.

[Peter Drouin]

Up the price on them. That way you can buy good logs. If they're good or not. They want the best , pay the best.  :D :D :D :D :D

[terrifictimbersllc]

Have a purchase agreement which includes:

"No warranty is expressed or intended by any product provided by Seller. Buyer agrees to hold Seller harmless for any and all liability whatsoever resulting from use of any product purchased from Seller."

[timberjackrob]

I am a conductor for Norfolk southern and see hundreds of ties each day and I have never seen a plate on a single one with anybodys name on it they do put a plate on the ends to keep them from splitting.i have worked a job where we would deliver cars to a sawmill/tie yard where they load green ties and none of them have any kind of id tags or plates.

[WH_Conley]

I have sold ties to a traveling buyer that puts your check number on the bundle. He grades the bundle by looking at the outside of it. When they get to the treatment plant the bundle is open up and graded. The ties are tracked by check number and the buyer is given the grading report. That way he can tell if the bundles are being nested with bad ones. I have never seen individual ties marked.

I did get an engineer's drawing for a rail car chock from a little railroad that I thought was a bad design. Too steep, would scoot instead of chock. They wanted them branded with mill identification and oil treated. I didn't think oil and steel were a good combination and bowed out of bidding on the job.

[red]

Due Diligence, exactly what you are doing here.  Just because a "salesman" says something does not make it true.  If it were true its should be in writing somewhere.  Never believe a salesman and sometimes not even your own Lawyer ! ! !