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WM Carriage bearing overheating?

Started by AnthonyW, August 09, 2016, 10:41:45 AM

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AnthonyW

Last weekend I was using my mill and as I cut through the log, the carriage got harder and harder to move, both forward and back. It was much more noticeable on the return for the next cut. It was fine when cutting the slabs, but once cant cutting started it got harder. As it is a manual feed, it was likely I was just getting tired but I started looking for another cause. I found one of the two carriage bearings under the main rail on the log side was screaming hot (so hot when you touch you scream). All four lower bearings were changed 2 (maybe 3, but I think 2) years ago. There isn't a lot of speed, but certainly a lot of pressure and only one of the two bearings was getting hot.

I'm planning on changing both the lowers again, but would like to see if I did something wrong or if there is something else wrong first. Has anyone run into this before?
'97 Wood-Mizer LT25 All Manual with 15HP Kohler

Magicman

Cam follower bearings are individuals.  Yes I have had them fail and need replacing and under normal circumstances, I only replace the failed cam follower. 

After replacing it/them check your roller blade guide adjustments. 
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

AnthonyW

Do you have grease fittings in your carriage (cam follower) bearings? The ones I found have the option. I'm thinking option yes, this time.
'97 Wood-Mizer LT25 All Manual with 15HP Kohler

Magicman

No, sealed bearings.  I would not want grease-able cam followers.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Peter Drouin

A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

AnthonyW

Why not greaseable?

They are as greaseable as the sealed u-joint bearings in my truck.

'97 Wood-Mizer LT25 All Manual with 15HP Kohler

Magicman

The cam followers will normally last until the bearing outter race is cupped from running on the rails and are replaced for this reason, not bearing failure.

As I previously mentioned they are individuals and I have had actual bearing failures but they are rare.  Why add another maintenance item?
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Kbeitz

I would have never thought that a carrage bearing could get hot
with the slow movement of the carrage. I beleve that WM has
Electric on both upper and lower parts of the mill. I would check
to see if you lost a ground and maybe if found a new path
through your bearing.
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

Magicman

That is a very good point Kbeitz, and is probably the reason for the hot cam follower.  Anthony, the ground rides along the lower rail.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

slider

I would be replacing them with McGill bearings.When you order ask them if they still offer McGill replacement bearings.If not kindly refuse and find some elsewhere.They can be found online .Some of mine did not have a McGill part number but if you have a dial caliper you can measure the size and find what you want.For some reason wm started using a cheaper bearing which is not as good.
al glenn

slider

He said the mill was a manual feed.I am assuming i is a manual mill with no power feed.
al glenn

AnthonyW

Quote from: Magicman on August 10, 2016, 08:00:21 AM
That is a very good point Kbeitz, and is probably the reason for the hot cam follower.  Anthony, the ground rides along the lower rail.

For once while dealing with outdoor equipment, I can guarantee it is not a ground issue. I have an all manual LT25, no electric, no hydraulic. I guess for once not having those bells and whistles, helps me.

The two bearings on the bottom (the one of which is getting hot) support the entire weight of the cantilevered head, so 1600 pounds multiplied by the leverage factor. So there is a lot more than 1600 pounds riding on those two bearings. I can't help but wonder if I don't have equal weight (pressure) on each bearing. I wonder if the one that failed is doing 80 or 90%+ of the work.
'97 Wood-Mizer LT25 All Manual with 15HP Kohler

terrifictimbersllc

Take off the head weight and see if they spin easily by hand. Or have someone push and watch how they are turning .
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

AnthonyW

Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on August 10, 2016, 09:45:21 AM
Take off the head weight and see if they spin easily by hand. Or have someone push and watch how they are turning .

In the rest position for travelling there is no weight on the lower bearings and they spin wonderfully, but they are also cold. As the head is moved back and forth through the cant cuts (more feet per minute of travel than when cutting the slabs), one bearing starts to heat up and gets harder to turn. Until then they both feel great.
'97 Wood-Mizer LT25 All Manual with 15HP Kohler

terrifictimbersllc

There would be more pressure on them when cutting. But if one bearing behaves a lot differently than the other I'd agree that one is bad.
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

AnthonyW

Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on August 10, 2016, 11:02:33 AM
There would be more pressure on them when cutting. But if one bearing behaves a lot differently than the other I'd agree that one is bad.

I had not thought to include the "cutting force" in the estimate of the pressure on those bearings. There is really a LOT of pressure on those lower bearings!

Any chance I can get the one bearing out without remove the entire adjustment bracket?
'97 Wood-Mizer LT25 All Manual with 15HP Kohler

Darrel

If the 25 is like the LT40, you should be able to lower the head into the transport position thus removing pressure from the lower bearings.  At that point, the offending bearing should be able to be removed easily.
1992 LT40HD

If I don't pick myself up by my own bootstraps, nobody else will.

AnthonyW

Quote from: Darrel on August 10, 2016, 01:03:55 PM
If the 25 is like the LT40, you should be able to lower the head into the transport position thus removing pressure from the lower bearings.  At that point, the offending bearing should be able to be removed easily.

The first part is true enough. I know the bearing is installed stud-down through the bracket. I can get to the nut from the bottom, but I haven't looked to see if the is enough clearance to slide the bearing up through the plate before hitting the bottom of the main rail. I figured I'd ask while on the subject, before I get home tonight and can see for myself.
'97 Wood-Mizer LT25 All Manual with 15HP Kohler

Magicman

Since you are manual you just had a bearing failure.
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

sparks

With all the tweaking we do over the years there are times we need to make sure everything is correct. Multiple adjustments on the head tilt can get the saw head out of parallel with the main frame. I have attaché a form with so tips on resetting this.    Thanks
\"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.\" Abraham Lincoln

MartyParsons

Hello,
   You will need to remove the bracket to remove the lower bearing. 15/16" wrench and two 3/4" wrenches or a socket. Do not remove both lower brackets at the same time! Do support the outside of the saw head on the rest pin or a block at the rest pin location on the saw head. Lubricate the threads with never seize for ease of the adjustment. Remove the old cam follower bearing and replace with new . You will need a 3/8" Allen wench and a 15/16" wrench to remove the cam follower bearing. Replace the bracket and tighten the outside nuts. You should not have needed to move the inside 5/8" nuts. Replace the 1/2" vertical bolt and adjust to spec.  Review the attachment from Sparks post.
Make sure both lower bearings have weight on them equally.  If not adjust as needed.
If you need help just ask. I will try to explain in more detail.
Marty 
"A pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees opportunity in every difficulty." -Winston Churchill

AnthonyW

Drat. I hoping not to have to remove the bracket, but sneak the bearing out. Oh well It is what it is.

I was going to ask how to ensure equal weight on both bearings, which I thinking is my problem. Sparks post indicates a measurement from the bracket to the rod that I don't recall seeing in the manual (it could be there, but I could have easily missed it). I think this measurement and adjustment would equalize the weight and load on each bearing.
'97 Wood-Mizer LT25 All Manual with 15HP Kohler

customsawyer

If you are getting your bearings from some where other than WM make sure they are a double roller bearing. There are lots of cam follower bearings out there that look just like the ones on the mill but they have a single row of needle bearings and they will break under the load on the cantilever head.
Two LT70s, Nyle L200 kiln, 4 head Pinheiro planer, 30" double surface Cantek planer, Lucas dedicated slabber, Slabmizer, and enough rolling stock and chainsaws to keep it all running.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

AnthonyW

Quote from: customsawyer on August 12, 2016, 03:52:58 AM
If you are getting your bearings from some where other than WM make sure they are a double roller bearing. There are lots of cam follower bearings out there that look just like the ones on the mill but they have a single row of needle bearings and they will break under the load on the cantilever head.

Interesting. The ones that were in there were needle bearing, both the top four I haven't replaced and the bottom four that I have. Realistically there is not much difference between them in the size on the mill. The needle bearing is spec'ed to 4840 pounds and the double roller to 5000 pounds.

Quote from: MartyParsons on August 11, 2016, 04:47:06 PM
Hello,
   You will need to remove the bracket to remove the lower bearing. 15/16" wrench and two 3/4" wrenches or a socket. Do not remove both lower brackets at the same time! Do support the outside of the saw head on the rest pin or a block at the rest pin location on the saw head. Lubricate the threads with never seize for ease of the adjustment. Remove the old cam follower bearing and replace with new . You will need a 3/8" Allen wench and a 15/16" wrench to remove the cam follower bearing. Replace the bracket and tighten the outside nuts. You should not have needed to move the inside 5/8" nuts. Replace the 1/2" vertical bolt and adjust to spec.  Review the attachment from Sparks post.
Make sure both lower bearings have weight on them equally.  If not adjust as needed.
If you need help just ask. I will try to explain in more detail.
Marty

The rear lower guide bracket can't come off with the head on the rest pin. The mounting bracket for the inner rear leg is in the way. Wah! But I did notice that if I lift the head and move it towards the rear, I could rest the outside of the head on the top of the outer rear leg (lowered a few notches).
'97 Wood-Mizer LT25 All Manual with 15HP Kohler

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