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Honeycomb without the honey

Started by fencerowphil (Phil L.), November 10, 2004, 09:42:19 AM

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fencerowphil (Phil L.)

Since I had no luck on the Drying and Processing forum, that
entry was deleted.  You guys probably have the answer:

I recently had some too-dry Swamp White Oak logs sawed.  As you would expect there was some tension,  and there were some prematurely dulled blades.  Much worse, however,  evidence of honeycombing appeared in the boards which came from the outer heart wood.  The checking showed  as soon as  those boards began to dry.  (Yes, I was being cautious -drying on the slow side, due to the fact that it was white oak.)

Here are my questions:
   1.    Has anyone had any experience with soaking logs
          which had already gotten to this stage to see what
          effect that would have on the sawing?

    2.    Can such re-hydration keep honeycomb degrade
           from getting worse, or does it cause other problems?

    3.    Does anyone have experience with long-term wetting
           of white oak and red oak logs (over a year)  either by
           submersion or by constant-flow soaking or sprinkling?

Thanks,    Phil L.
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

Jeff

My little experience with white oak has been, once the checks appear, they stay. Rehydrating the wood may swell the wood and give the appearance the checks are gone, but they are not. As soon as the drying begins, no matter what the speed, the previous damage reappears.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

beenthere

Phil
Ditto what Jeff said.

What kind of 'luck' were you looking for on the 'other' forum that you didn't get?

Were you not getting the answers you want? or not accepting the answers you received? or not getting any answers at all? or something else?

I stopped reading the 'other' forum quite some time ago, as it just didn't have the right feeling, and people were being bossed around a lot and put down.

Do you understand the process that leads up to 'honeycomb'? I believe I remember it is pretty specific, although some tend to apply the term to any checking of lumber. (And before I would try to rattle off what it is, I'd go back to the WoodHandbook Tom often speaks of, and read up in there what honeycombing is and how it is caused  :) ).

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Jeff

I think Phil was referring to our drying forum although I sure dont remember seeing the question.  :-/
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

Thanks, Jeff and Beenthere.

I do understand that the crushed grain, caused by drying of the outer layers of a log (or a board, for that matter) causes an irreversible effect, namely honeycomb checking later, after the pressure of the "casehardened" state is released.  What I do wonder about is a way to cache logs  for efficient sawing all at once, but avoid this problem in the future.   Specifically, has anyone had some 4-6month-on-the-ground logs, which they tried to resoak?   (Yep,  I know it won't reverse the damage, but what DOES it do?)

The "other forum" was actually the Drying and Processing portion of this 'un.   I didn't get any answers at all. There is no doubt about it that sawyers have more fun, whether they are sawing or not.   I guess we are also the type personality to spout what we know,  er,  shoot the bull, uh,   oh yeah, to share what we know.   :D :) :D

Maybe the other folks are just TOO busy with that Drying and Processing! :P  

Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

Jeff

Well, The other Folks are these folks. Everyone that goes there goes here because its the same place. I can't think of one feller over there that does not visit other areas of the Forestry Forum, after all the Forestry Forum is all one big place. :)

I am guessing the thread was just overlooked somehow. I dont remember seeing it and I try to read everything. Dunno what happened there.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

Fla._Deadheader

  Don't believe that post was up long enough for the Kiln operators to see it, kinda like what "babylogger" got pithed about. ::) :D

  I may show my ignorance here, but, if White Oak wood can hold alcohol, how can it honeycomb ???
All truth passes through three stages:
   First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.

-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

beenthere

Yup, I didn't see it, but that doesn't mean a whole lot.  :)  Thought you really were on 'another' forum, not just in a different 'room' here.
I think you can forget the term 'honeycomb' with respect to logs and the surface of the log drying out. When the surface of a log dries, it shrinks (more along the annual ring or circumferance than in the radial direction) and the wood takes on tension stress before it fails and splits causing radial checks from the surface. Internal checks often referred to as wind checks radiate out from the pith center and are due to stresses in the growing tree.  Neither have much if anything to do with honeycomb in the board.

Honeycomb refers to a condition in a board and has most to do with initial and fast surface drying creating surface checks AND tension set. Its the tension set that doesn't return to its original state that later causes the internal checking of a board when eventually the center dries and shrinks (can't because the shell has the tension set and the surface checks close but the wood won't compress in the shell). That's a rough idea of honeycomb. Often it is related to 'collapse' which looks like sunken (collapsed) surfaces of the dried board.
Hope this diatribe doesn't cause too much pain and grief.  ::)
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

HORSELOGGER

I agree completely with everything beenthere has ever said....well at least in that last post ??? I routinely take home old dead oak logs , standing and laying on the ground, when I am logging. I poke a saw in em, and if they are sound inside, I drag em home. I am looking for the really wormy stuff, which I saw and dry right along with the fresh stuff, with no honeycomb. I sometimes have to take a few layers of heavily check and split outer wood to get to sound stuff, and I think that is maybe what you are dealing with??? I warped a blade this summer trying to motor too fast through an old dry red oak log. Lots of tension in that outer shell shrinking down around the log.
Heritage Horselogging & Lumber Co.
"Surgical removal of standing timber, Leaving a Heritage of timber for tommorow. "

fencerowphil (Phil L.)

Beenthere!
What a great 'splanation!

Thinking about what Horselogger said, ...
I have even brought in true White Oaks (Quercus Alba - the real deal) which had been down over a year, plus had been partly burned and still cut good stuff out of them.   Of course the sap wood was mush, since the weather had been unusually wet during that particular summer - the wettest Georgia summer in at least a decade.  In other words, rather than the sap wood shrinking, checking and crushing the log,  the sap wood had stayed wet and decayed.  In effect, the wet mush was protecting the valuable heartwood.  ( As you probably already know,  the heart of true White Oak  is very decay resistant and a little insect resistant.)
   I have also seen Post Oak (which also has high heart wood rot resistance) act similarly, even after being down and wet a long time.    During that same wet summer, I cut a large Live Oak (Quercus Virginiana), which had been cut at least 10 months with no problems.  Maybe these past experiences are part of the answer to my QUESTIONS ABOVE.

P.S.  The reason I deleted from the other category is that I didn't want to "double-up."    A year or so ago I would list questions under multiple categories, so as to reach a bigger audience.   I tend to read only three categories regularly:  this one,  followed by "Chainsaw", and last "Drying/Processing".  Maybe most people read them all, but I find that I focus on just these few, while rarely visiting the others.  Just personal preferences mixed with the time constraints of life, you know.   No offense intended.
Phil L.
Bi-VacAtional:  Piano tuner and sawyer.  (Use one to take a vacation from the other.) Have two Stihl 090s, one Stihl 075, Echo CS8000, Echo 346,  two Homely-ite 27AVs, Peterson 10" Swingblade Winch Production Frame, 36" and 54"Alaskan mills, and a sore back.

Jeff

WHAT! No general board?   Man!  All work makes Jack a dull boy. ;)
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

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