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Land Clearing Advice Needed!

Started by SMLWinds, August 02, 2016, 06:06:58 PM

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SMLWinds

I am hoping that someone can give me some advice--any is appreciated! I just purchased 700 acres of land, 600+ or which is currently in forest. I am selling the timber and would like to clean up as much of the cutover land as I can to make crop and pasture land. There is a wide variety of timber on the land. A lot of it is pine stands, but there are some hardwood stands as well. Most of the timber is around 12" in diameter with the vast majority of it in the 12-18" range.

I have done some research and talked to a lot of folks and gotten mixed responses on how to best go about this. I plan to buy my own equipment and do as much as I can myself (more for fun than saving money) and will pay experienced operators to run my equipment and help as well. So, my questions are:

1) What equipment would be best for me to utilize? I have been planning to get an excavator and dozer.

2) What size excavator and dozer? I was thinking about a Cat 320 and a D5 or D6 dozer?

3) Has anyone used something like a Rotor S? Basically is it like a high torque corkscrew or auger that mulches the stump all the way below the ground?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vV0TTEmoMuw
They make them for excavators as well.

4) I hear a lot of talk about mulching. If I mulch, obviously that will only take stumps to ground level. I assume you can't use that as crop land but would work for pasture. Could you mulch now to make a pasture and then wait a few years for roots to rot and then use a big dozer with a root rake?

Any help and advice is greatly appreciated!

GAB

First thing - welcome to the forestry forum.
Personally I would not be buying equipment and the hire someone to operate it because to me it is the quickest way to depreciate a piece of equipment.  Also I hope you have a lot of time to do repairs or very deep pockets.
If all of your stumps are likethe ones in the video ie cut short I'd say go with the tool or toy in the video.
I'd like to know where you are located as I do not know if I could get accustomed to your soil as in the video I did not see any solid real estate, stones, rocks, pebbles, ledge, whatever term you want to use.
I hope Ray does not look at the video.  Soil with no nuggets would be a novelty to him.
Gerald
W-M LT40HDD34, SLR, JD 420, JD 950w/loader and Woods backhoe, V3507 Fransguard winch, Cordwood Saw, 18' flat bed trailer, and other toys.

SMLWinds

Gerald-Thanks for the welcome to the forum and feedback/advice! I am located in Virginia. There are some hills on my land but it is relatively flat. There are no rocks to speak of. As for stump height, some of my stumps are knee high but the vast majority of them are ankle height cut by a feller buncher. I do understand what you are saying about others running your equipment and ideally I'd love to do it all myself but I am young and have a full time job that is paying for all this land and equipment. Clearing this land will be a long process regardless but would be never ending if I did every bit of it myself. Certainly there are good operators out there (many of whom I am certain would be easier on the equipment than I will as a novice) but agree that wear on the equipment is a worry and necessitates getting good folks to help. As for repairs, if it takes time then it takes time--not much I can do about that. I don't know if I would use the term "deep pockets" as it sounds fairly arrogant but I will say that I am very blessed and finances are not an issue for me at all.

You refer to the rotor in the video as a "toy." I sense some sarcasm--do you not think that attachment would do a good job?

Thanks again for your response and help!

ScottAR

Welcome to the Forum!

First, understand I want to see a positive result for you so don't take this post negatively. 

What is the timeline for this project?  The shorter the time the bigger machines will be needed.  Months? 1-3 years? 3-5 years? 5-7years?

Is burning allowed?  Investigate air curtain burners if you can burn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsxJxf1pdTk  Burner

What is your experience level with machinery and repairs?  There will be some.  Buying the machine is sometimes the cheapest part of the deal. 

Do you have any machinery already?

It's been my experience that questions for large projects are easiest to answer when worked from the end result back to the first step.   

It's also been my experience that good experienced operators are looking for a full time gig. Steady income with some level of benefits.  A poor or careless operator can wreck any machine pretty quickly.
Attracting quality workers for a one shot deal may prove difficult.  Investigate RPO options on machinery to find out first hand the size machinery you need somewhat safely. 

Assuming unlimited budget and mostly flatish  ground and no surprises.....  A 330 size machine/thumb or grapple with a 200-300 hp dozer with rake.  Burn in trench with trench burner or destructor box.  Clean up with stick rake and tractor.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_DG8RWtAUA Stick rake. For row crop, I'd follow with a Rome/Big G/etc. cutting disk harrow.

As to the stump screw cutter I think you'd find it maddeningly slow.  In the roughly 2minute vid only 6 stumps were ground.  That's 40 seconds a stump x thousands of stumps.  It's also a one trick pony. 
Scott
"There is much that I need to do, even more that I want to do, and even less that I can do."
[Magicman]

danbuendgen

I agree. Don't buy equipment and have someone run it. First off, don't buy equipment for a personal project. Then you will have to sell after, and you WILL NOT GET BACK THAT MONEY. Second, don't have people run you equipment that you don't know or trust with you life. Ever hear about workers comp?? If you hire someone, they are now your employee. NIGHTMARE! Plus, they are getting paid by the hour, yes? If so, They will have little incentive to get things done. Plus, owning and operating and maintaining equipment is extremely expensive. If you buy older equipment, the cost of repairs will kill you. If you buy new equipment, the cost of payments is huge, and you still have repairs. You would need to be there to micro manage everything. And in the end, you are going to have smashed up equipment that you won't get a good price for.
Honestly, the fastest and cheapest way would be to hire a logging company. Professional operators will get that done fast. A feller buncher and a grapple skidder, then stump it, pile the brush, and burn all that is not harvested.
Just my .02 coming from a self employed logger. GOOD LUCK.
Husqvarna ~ TimberJack ~ Dodge Cummins

John Mc

As others have said or implied, it's not getting the best equipment that gets the job done right, it's getting the best operators. I'd rather have an "A+" operator running "C+" equipment than the other way around.  If you want a quality job done, find someone in the business with a reputation for doing it right - and make sure they are properly insured.

Hiring an employee to do what is one of the most dangerous jobs around and providing them equipment to do so is fraught with severe financial risk. As there employer, you have a responsibility to ensure that your employees are properly trained on the equipment you provide and are following appropriate safety procedures. Are you prepared to see to that? You may have deep pockets. In this case, that may end up just meaning you have more to lose.

If what you want is a new car, would you go out and by the production line and hire someone to run it to make your car?
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Raider Bill

Buy the biggest dozer you can afford and I'll come run it for meals, beer and lodging  8)
The First 70 years of childhood is always the hardest.

OneWithWood

Quote from: Raider Bill on August 03, 2016, 10:22:46 AM
Buy the biggest dozer you can afford and I'll come run it for meals, beer and lodging  8)

How close is the nearest fire station?  :D :D
One With Wood
LT40HDG25, Woodmizer DH4000 Kiln

GAB

Quote from: SMLWinds on August 03, 2016, 12:06:26 AM
You refer to the rotor in the video as a "toy." I sense some sarcasm--do you not think that attachment would do a good job?

Thanks again for your response and help!

When I wrote "toy" I was thinking of the statement: the difference between a man and a boy is the price of the toy.
I have two tractors, a bulldozer and a sawmill plus other equipment that I refer to as toys.
W-M LT40HDD34, SLR, JD 420, JD 950w/loader and Woods backhoe, V3507 Fransguard winch, Cordwood Saw, 18' flat bed trailer, and other toys.

thecfarm

GAB,first stump on my land would do that rig in.  :o ::)
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

thecfarm

Quote from: Raider Bill on August 03, 2016, 10:22:46 AM
Buy the biggest dozer you can afford and I'll come run  burn it for meals, beer and lodging  8)

;D ;D :D
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

SMLWinds

Thanks for all the responses, guys! I do appreciate the warnings and voices of experience. I'll try to explain things and answer some questions in an effort to help you guys help me better.

First of all, as humbly as I can say so, I am very very blessed and money is not a problem for me. I have the means to make any repairs and/or buy high dollar new equipment. So, factor money out and assume there are capabilities to pay whatever I desire.

I am certain someone out there just said "Then why not hire someone with their own equipment to do this?" The answer to that is simple--I love to own "toys" just like all of you and I want to do this for fun and enjoyment. Nothing makes me happier than working on my properties. I am always cautious and use due diligence in learning things, but I do just about everything I can in life with my own 2 hands because I like doing it that way. I bought this land for fun and personal enjoyment, not to support my life. As humbly as I can say so, I am pretty smart and typically able to learn to do things in safe, effective way.

I appreciate the warnings about worker's comp and hiring folks to run equipment. I pretty much know who is good and who is not based upon conversations with guys in my area who have run heavy equipment all their life so rest assured I will find quality guys. As for worker's comp, yes, that is an issue. As someone with lots of material assets including rental properties I am very much in tune with that. I have 2 brothers who are attorneys and do personal injury and worker's comp, so rest assured I am very well covered and protected from those standpoints as well.

As for experience, I have a skid steer and a 11K pound excavator that I am pretty skilled in running. When I got them I didn't know how to start them up, but I have slowly worked, learned, and listened and become pretty good. I also grew up on a farm so have run tractors and combines. I do realize those machines are not large excavators, dozers, mulchers, etc. but I will take it slow, get guidance, and learn to run those as well.

As for the Rotor S (stump corkscrew or auger attachment) I know it appears slow only doing a stump every 40 seconds but can you really get them out of the ground faster with an excavator? I don't have personal experience, but I have seen and heard that it will take quite a while to uproot a stump with even a large excavator. Is that not the case?

What do you guys think about mulching machines? At first I didn't consider them because they only grind things down to ground level and leave the stump. But, I have seen some (like a tre-eta) that actually get into the ground down to a foot deep. Basically, they are like a massive tiller.

Thanks for all the comments thus far--please keep them coming! I still need advice on machines as I continue my research on clearing this land!

SMLWinds

Oh yeah, as far as time line, there really isn't one. I don't want this to drag on forever to the point that I never get to enjoy the cleared land but it doesn't have to be done this year. I am trying to strike the balance between having equipment that will efficiently clear the land but not spending millions of dollars on machines for speed that isn't absolutely critical to me.

ScottAR

Scott
"There is much that I need to do, even more that I want to do, and even less that I can do."
[Magicman]

jdonovan

Quote from: SMLWinds on August 04, 2016, 12:34:12 AM
What do you guys think about mulching machines?

for what you want to do.. the wrong tool for the job.

They clear surface materials, and a few inches into the ground. Once you get some settlement, rot, you'll have woody material back on the surface. There ARE machines that work deeper, but you're talking about $250,000+ machines. And that is only getting the top 8-12" or so. The stumps/roots below will be left to rot and make divots for the next 20 years.

The thing to do is look at what commercial operations use. They are using that equipment because its at the balance point of cost to own, operate, and pay an operator to run. You have less of a cost on the "pay the operator" side of the equation, so you can probably use smaller equipment.

I'm also in VA, and I see 2 kinds of clearing operations around me.

1) overgrown brush removal, i.e recent < 10-15 year clear cut areas. This is the bread and butter for the CTL mounted mulchers.
2) tree removal. Where the trees being removed are 8-inch +

you're in the #2 case. Those operations are almost always using a team of excavators, and dozer. The excavator is detaching the stump from the earth, and the dozers are moving them to piles.

I'm doing this right now on a small (couple of acres) scale and I recently switched to a midi-excavator, and a wheel loader, and I saw a massive increase in the speed of my work. When I can pull a stump in a single pass, and swing it 20' away to a pile, you can get a lot of stumps gone in a short period of time.

If I was in your situation, and money was less of an issue, I'd be looking into 40-60,000 lb class excavator, and a D6 or larger with a root rake and rippers. The bigger excavator could also mount a stump shear which could make burning take quite a bit less time if you can get the stumps into smaller pieces. You will probably also want a farm type tractor to be able to pull a disk to do your final leveling, and seeding.

You should be able to find a local rental yard where you can get a similar sized ex- for a 1 week rental. Try it out, and if you can't get the average stump out in < 2 minutes, its probably too small of a machine. My experience says you'll probably do 75% of the work with the ex, and 25% with the dozer. You probably want to own the ex, but you may be able to work for a month with the ex, and then hire in a dozer for a week and do all your pushing work, and then go back to digging.

You're also going to need a plan for your stumps. Depending on your locality you might be able to get a burn permit, and be able to do a pit burn. If not you're going to probably have to hire a tub grinder to come in and mulch the stumps.


John Mc

As long as you are going into this with your eyes open. I would expect removing stumps is not as dangerous as felling the trees (one of the most dangerous jobs out there, with the accident rates to prove it.) That latter is not really something you just want to just dive in and start doing even though you may well be "pretty smart and typically able to learn to do things in safe, effective way".

I'm not sure where you are located (you might fill out your profile with your location; it helps folks make recommendations tailored to your area). There are some good courses known as the "Game of Logging" that are a great way to jump-start your skills in tree felling. It's not the only way to fell a tree, but that organization is a great way to jumpstart your tree felling skills, and is one of the few that have an organized system for teaching safe and productive tree felling.  In my area, it's taught by Northeast Woodland Training, but others have franchies in other areas. If there isn't a GOL organization in your area, there are other organizations that do similar things (Google "Tim Ard chainsaw" for one of them). Or take a vacation up in Vermont and sign up for some of Northeast Woodland Training's classes.

I hear you on enjoying doing it yourself. I really enjoy the puzzle of figuring out how to get trees down on the ground safely without damaging those around them that I want to keep, and in a way that lets me get them out of the woods easily. (I'm typically thinning, not clearing, so my situation may be a bit different than yours.)
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

SMLWinds

John-Thanks for the advice. I appreciate you approaching things from a "you can learn" point of view and giving me advice on how to do so safely. So many times you try to learn something and professionals say "You'll never learn it, you will kill yourself, etc." Yes, you will if you are stupid but everyone was ignorant at some point. You just have to be smart about what you do and seeking the proper help to learn and gain experience. With that being said, I am not felling a single tree on this job. I am selling the timber and the feller buncher is taking care of all of that! All I am doing is removing stumps.

Donovan-That was a spectacular and very sensible response. You addressed some issues I had been thinking about. To be honest, I don't mind spending 250K on a machine if it would do a great job and do it quickly. But, you bring up a point I had thought about with "what happens to things 10 inches below grade?" I had heard you need to clear 10 inches below grade to plant crops, but you seem to confirm my suspicion that if you don't get everything out now, you will have more work to do later.

You are right--the excavator and dozer are the tried and true methods. I am not opposed to considering anything new because some may not consider it simply because it is a new method or very expensive. If there is something better out there, I want to know about it no matter how expensive. But, it sounds like one could make an argument for the excavator and dozer being just as good as anything.

I have been planning on a Cat 320 excavator and a D6 dozer, so you reaffirm my choices there. I was told you could go up to a Cat 336 and it would dig stumps better but you would lose just as much since the machine become much less maneuverable. Seems like a 320 is a good middle ground.

Any further opinions are valued greatly--whether they agree or disagree. I can't have too many opinions, too much advice, or consider too many options as I enter this!

Donovan-Where are you located? I am just east of Richmond.

SMLWinds

One more quick question that is going to sound really stupid, but how big does a stump have to be in order to need the excavator instead of dozer only? I imagine the little small 1-3 inch stumps you don't even touch with an excavator and just plow through them with the dozer, right? Obviously the bigger stumps you dig with the excavator, but how big do they have to be before a D6 will not handle them appropriately?

John Mc

Quote from: SMLWinds on August 04, 2016, 10:31:19 AM
John-Thanks for the advice. I appreciate you approaching things from a "you can learn" point of view and giving me advice on how to do so safely. So many times you try to learn something and professionals say "You'll never learn it, you will kill yourself, etc." Yes, you will if you are stupid but everyone was ignorant at some point. You just have to be smart about what you do and seeking the proper help to learn and gain experience. With that being said, I am not felling a single tree on this job. I am selling the timber and the feller buncher is taking care of all of that! All I am doing is removing stumps.

That changes things a good bit. I misunderstood the scope of your project. It can also be tough to respond to someone who is brand new to the board and jumps in with a big project on their first post. We don't have any context from which to judge your experience and aptitude before making a recommendation.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

jdonovan

Quote from: SMLWinds on August 04, 2016, 10:31:19 AM
Donovan-Where are you located? I am just east of Richmond.

Fauquier.

You're going to need to establish some relationships with parts dealers and service companies. Land clearing is HARD on equipment. in many cases I'm finding myself choosing brands based on the dealer support vs equipment capability on the spec sheet. If I can source a part in a 30 minute round trip to the dealer, vs 4 hours. That's the difference between loosing a day, or an hour.

I think the #1 worst job for equipment wear/breakage is demolition, and #2 is land clearing. Unless you are getting a semi, and a low boy, you're going to need to find someone to do onsite service/maintenance. Even if you can move the equipment, you can sometimes blow a track motor, or a hose in a place that you really can't pull the machine out of, and it needs to be fixed as-is where is.

You may want to give your local Cat dealer a call. Discuss your project, and get some advise from the pro's on what the right size tools are, and get a sales guy to start looking for used equipment for you. I've been happy with my interactions with Carter Machinery, and I know they have a presence down Richmond way.

These bigger machines eat fuel, lots of it. Figure most equipment is sized to run a shift on a tank of fuel; that is 10-12 hours. A 320 has a 100gallon tank. How you get 75-100 Gallons of fuel a day to that machine. Have a truck with a tank? How do you fill that tank? How much time do you spend going to the gas station each day? What happens when the dozer and the ex both need 100 gallons, and your truck only holds 75? Can the truck make it over the rough ground to the machine? Or do you have to walk it out to a refuel point every day? 3mph feels mighty slow when you have 2000-3000' to walk.

Give a thought to logistics.  Fuel was my first big lesson as the equipment size went up. 5-gallon cans very quickly become impractical. I put a 75 gallon tank into the bed of the truck. Then I discovered how slow the fuel pump at the gas station is when you need 40 in the truck tank and 75 in the bed. If I wasn't just a weekend warrior, I'd have stepped up to a skid tank onsite. I tried to keep a nice level, root/rock/brush free path so I could get the truck to within 500' of where I was working.

the next lesson was tools. I now own some REALLY big wrenches and sockets, and I'm working on equipment that doesn't get any bigger than 10ton. If the tools get any bigger I'm going to need a crane to lift the wrenches =).



VT_Forestry

If you want to see a mulcher run, at work we have a TigerCat M726E with a Fecon head on it...328 stump eating horses - and guaranteed to make you smile every time you run it  :D

I live in James City County, east of Richmond as well.  I'm assuming with that much land you are likely in New Kent?

Forester - Newport News Waterworks

BenjaminPQ

I just cleared a half acre with only my back hoe and a chain. It has taken my all summer. I can't imagine 600 acres. Buy really big equipment!

SMLWinds

Thanks for all the responses.

John-Sorry if I wasn't clear on the scope. I wish I had a small project to start with, but it is what it is! :) I guess we could view it as clearing 1 acre 600 times! ;D

Donovan-I know Fauquier well as my best friend is from there. I have a skid steer and excavator and they know we very very well at Carter in Richmond. I have also dealt with the Carter Machinery in F'burg. I have received their advice and input but just wanted to check with some experts who run equipment and see what else is out there that perhaps Cat doesn't sell. The young salesman (no insult to them since I am in my 30's) doesn't always know as much as someone who has been clearing land for 30 years. I already have a 100 gallon tank with pump on a trailer and have a place to rapidly fill offroad diesel. I appreciate the warnings....I have the logistics worked out and have "eyes wide open" going into this.

VT Forestry-Thanks for jumping in! Always good to know nearby guys! Which Fecon head do you have on that Tigercat? Have you used any that get below grade and do you feel that head has a role in clearing land that you want to turn into farm land? I am not in New Kent--I am located in Essex so am about 45 minutes from New Kent. I very well may take you up on seeing your machine run sometime if you don't mind!

VT_Forestry

We have the Fecon BH-300 mulching head with FGT rotor & double carbide tools...it makes quick work of stumps and would do a really good job turning something into pasture - it's unlikely that it would get below grade far enough to make land tillable.  We typically use it for site prep after timber harvests since we can't really burn here in Newport News.  If it's something you want to see, certainly let me know and we should be able to put on a good show for you! 

Forester - Newport News Waterworks

sealark37

If I were doing what you want to do, I would purchase the largest Caterpillar dozer that I could afford.  I would then spend some time in the evenings and weekends stumping and clearing small plots of land to my satisfaction.  At that point, you will have the information you need to proceed with the rest of the project.  There is a great deal of satisfaction in learning to run a dozer and make it do what you desire.  Be easy with the equipment, lubricate it, and do the recommended maintenance.  Keep an ample supply of clean fuel that you can access easily.  The job can be great fun.    Regards, Clark

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