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Concrete slab concern

Started by SevernDH, July 17, 2016, 07:57:06 PM

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SevernDH

Started off with an intro, but the post was getting too long, so will get back to that later.

I am a weekend warrior with more toys tools than space, so set out to change that with a pole barn!  The clear choice for me was to have it built, or I would still be talking about this ten years from now.

The barn is 32'x64' under roof, half enclosed (tractor, attachments, mowers) and half open-air (mill, lumber drying).  All had gone to plan, until concrete was poured Wednesday.  Thursday, I started looking closer at debris where the concrete chutes were washed and did not see any signs of fiber. I should be able to see it there, yes? The contract clearly states it was to be fiber-reinforced concrete and there is no other reinforcement in the slab.

The ground is all sand, with a small amount of compactable sand/clay mix to reach final level, then a layer of plastic and the concrete. Location is in Maryland, between Baltimore and DC, so winters will be of some concern, but not the extremes others will see.

I was playing phone tag with the builder on Friday, so don't know what they propose yet.  The question I am hoping someone can help me with is whether I am likely to regret taking a deal to keep what is there or if I am better off making them redo the whole thing.

Thanks for any opinions!

--Dale

P.S. - My apologies for soaking up everyone else's projects and not posting about my own, but as long as my projects take, I can't see anyone else staying interested that long!  :D
EZ Boardwalk Model 40, New Holland TC40
Desk Jockey by day; Couch potato and occasional wood hack by night

Ikeholt

Break some of the washout with a hammer.  You should see the fibers when you crack it.  It's about as thin as a spider web, not surprised you didn't see it.  If it isn't there, I'd negotiate with the contractor for a discount.  Concrete is pretty tuff if you had a good base, you may never miss the fiber.  Just my 2 cents.

Bruno of NH

You should see the fibers in the top of the finished slab / floor.
Or run your hand along it you should feel it .
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

SevernDH

The debris from the chutes was washed well enough to completely separate gravel and sand from the cement, thus why I expected to see fibers.

I did break up a chunk of spilled concrete, and saw signs of very fine fibers holding small pieces on.  Guess I was expected something more like pre-mixed concrete I bought at a box store for a small project a couple years ago.  Fibers in that mix were clearly visible.

Will talk to the builder to see what they say, but it looks like the version Ike describes may be present.
EZ Boardwalk Model 40, New Holland TC40
Desk Jockey by day; Couch potato and occasional wood hack by night

thecfarm

Sounds like all is right. Welcome to the forum. I would like to have a slab about that size. Just no way I can have the ground work done and the cement too. Than I have to have steel roofing. I have trees and a mill,but not enough money for the other stuff.  :(
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Larry

Fiber is used in concrete to prevent cracking in the initial drying stage caused by shrinkage.  The fiber does nothing to increase the long term strength of concrete.

So...if there is no cracks in the slab in the first 30-60 days you got lucky or there was fiber in the mix. 

Welcome to the forum Dale.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Magicman

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, SevernDH. 
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

Ljohnsaw

How thick of a slab did you pour?
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

SevernDH

It is a 4" slab, well, two slabs, since the wall down the center has a skirt board that separates them.

Thanks for everyone who has replied.  My own research has turned up everything from Larry's response that it only helps during initial cure to seeing claims it adds up to 25% additional long term strength.

About the only thing the head of the install crew told me was wait a week to drive on it, so I figured I would wait until next weekend to move the mill in, unless I get home early enough one day late this week.  Rest of the equipment will wait until the garage doors are installed, which is not scheduled yet.
EZ Boardwalk Model 40, New Holland TC40
Desk Jockey by day; Couch potato and occasional wood hack by night

21incher

Welcome to the Forestry Forum SevernDH. When I had my pole barn built they talked me into fiber, but I wish I had gone with wire.  :)
Hudson HFE-21 on a custom trailer, Deere 4100, Kubota BX 2360, Echo CS590 & CS310, home built wood splitter, home built log arch, a logrite cant hook and a bread machine. And a Kubota Sidekick with a Defective Subaru motor.

kensfarm

A full time grain farmer gave me the advice to order the 4000psi concrete strength.. he said it didn't cost that much more.  I did 6 inch slab w/ mesh and rebar.. 18x25ft  I hired the concrete finisher the farmer had used.. the man told me all he did was concrete.  He stayed all day.. did a great job. 



 



 




Gary_C

The primary reason for putting wire, mesh, re-rod or fiberglass in a mix for a slab is if you expect to be spanning gaps in the sub grade. So if you provide a properly compacted, well drained sub grade any reinforcing is unnecessary.

If you want to get technical, concrete has 1/3 the strength in tension that it does in compression (it's called Poisson's Ratio) so the reinforcing is need anywhere a slab has the potential to span some gaps. If you expect no gaps, there is no need for fibers.

So the question is did you pay for fibers in the concrete and not get it or did you just expect fibers in the concrete? It's kind of like an insurance policy that you may not need. Hopefully the contractor will stand behind his word and the integrity of the slab.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Stuart Caruk

I used to swear by fiber reinforcement and used it in everything. Turns out that after time, concrete exposed to the weather isn't such a great idea, and in fact it's no longer used in my area. It wicks up standing water, and if that freezes, it tends to crack the concrete causing more harm then good in an exposed area.
Stuart Caruk
Wood-Mizer LX450 Diesel w/ debarker and home brewed extension, live log deck and outfeed rolls. Woodmizer twin blade edger, Barko 450 log loader, Clark 666 Grapple Skidder w/ 200' of mainline. Bobcats and forklifts.

SevernDH

Caught up with the builder today.  He says he is waiting to hear back from the concrete guys, so will have to see what they say.

I believe I am good on the substrate.  It was pretty solid before construction began (ran tractor across it a few times doing final cleanup around the site before construction got started, so I know it was pretty stable). They also ran a compactor prior to the pour, though they did that  part before I got home, so I only saw the result, rather than the work.

Sounds like my risk of issue is pretty low, but you can bet if we find the fiber was either left out or not done to spec, I will use it as a negotiating tool in my favor.

Thanks again to everyone who has shared information and opinions.  A guy at work told me I was crazy asking about concrete on the Forestry Forum and should seek out a concrete forum.  I told him he'd be amazed at the things one can learn from  this bunch of fine folks!

For Caruk: That is a new one I have not heard yet. Are you talking only standing water, so with a roof over it and good drainage I should be OK?
EZ Boardwalk Model 40, New Holland TC40
Desk Jockey by day; Couch potato and occasional wood hack by night

Dave Shepard

It sounds like they used micro fibers. That's what I used in my mill slab. Regular fibers are huge in comparison, and are a pain to finish. If you saw little hairs holding bits of concrete, those are the micro fibers.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Bruno of NH

Dave is right regular fiber finds it's way to the top and you see it in the finish and makes it hard to sweep the floor .
They may have left it out some guys don't like finishing it
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

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