iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

making me sick

Started by Den Socling, July 13, 2016, 11:47:07 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Den Socling

I am so sick and tired of reading about species of trees being wiped out by invasive species that I could scream. I just read that 95% of the Hemlocks in Shenandoah are dead. These were trees up to 500 years old. If anybody ever complains to me about not being allowed to move firewood though different regions or having to heat treat their pallets, I may punch them in the nose! And these clowns selling on Ebay air-dried, unsterilized slabs should be stopped immediately. I read earlier today that these slabs are spreading a bug that is deadly to walnuts. Come on people!
There. I feel a little better.  :D

Gary_C

EAB came in thru the port of Baltimore with pallets of auto parts and quickly spread to the surrounding area in Maryland and then next to Detroit and surrounding area in Michigan. Can't really blame that on E-Bay sellers.

It has now spread across Indiana and Wisconsin and appeared in eastern Minnesota where they are putting up a good fight but admit it inevitably will take all the Ash trees.

If it is inevitable and unstoppable I wonder why there is such a fuss about resistance.

Some of the other tree pest outbreaks like the mountain pine beetle in the west and the eastern larch beetle are not necessarily invasive pests but native pests that are claimed to be more prevalent because of longer growing seasons (less killing winter temperatures).

It's so very hard to motivate people to spend money to protect against these tree and wood pests when the results have little chance of being effective.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

red

I am with you 100% . But I hate sesing these bundles of firewood from Europe ? They sell for $6.50 in the supermarkets and big box stores . These bundles are kiln dried which is great for not spreading bugs . But where were they kiln dried ?
Honor the Fallen Thank the Living

Ron Wenrich

I remember sitting in Entomolgy class in 1969 and the prof saying that eventually all diseases and insects will be global.  So, this isn't really any surprise.  We had the inklings when we got the Dutch elm disease, and then the Chestnut blight.  Nothing really surprises me.

I remember when we had the USDA come in and look at some white oak logs that we were sending for export.  They were looking for gypsy moth casings.  Those with heavy amounts had to be debarked.  Those that only had a few were let go without being debarked.  A quarantine doesn't mean that markets are closed.

The one that I hate is the invasive plant species.  Oriental bittersweet is overtaking the roadsides in my area.  I've seen them take down pine trees.  All because someone thought they would look nice in their landscape.  Ailanthus has escaped to the wild, and so has Norway maple.  We have tons of multiflora rose that overtakes fields and heavy cut woodlots.  Russian olive and Japanese honeysuckle are a couple more that take over.

Then you can go to the invasive animals.  Life would be a lot easier without starlings.  Same goes for Lionfish or zebra mussels or those flying carp or pythons in the Everglades.   

Thousand canker disease has put a quarantine on all firewood coming out of a 5 county area of PA.  They also quarantine any walnut mulch or chip - composted or not, green lumber, and nursery stock.  Fine is $300 for each violation.  You can sell kiln dried walnut, but there can't be any bark.  Want to bet there isn't 100% compliance?  Neither do I. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Den Socling

Yes, the invasive plants are a problem, too. We used to canoe-camp with our kids on an island in Pine Creek. It's now covered with Barberry. And Japanese knotweed? It has taken over every creekbank. But seeing the old trees die hurts the worse. Last year it was all of the Ash including a huge tree that had my grandson's swing. Now they are gone and the tree is gone. If they ever find out, I'll tell them that it died from a broken heart.

WV Sawmiller

Ron,

   You must live up north or Kudzu would have been at the top of your list.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

submarinesailor

Quote from: WV Sawmiller on July 14, 2016, 09:24:16 AM
Kudzu would have been at the top of your list.

A buddy of mine had a place up near Marshall, VA and the only way he could control the Kudzu was with GOATS!

Bruce

Den Socling

Well, that's something else to be thankful for. No Kudzu.

Czech_Made

Quote from: submarinesailor on July 14, 2016, 10:13:12 AM
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on July 14, 2016, 09:24:16 AM
Kudzu would have been at the top of your list.

A buddy of mine had a place up near Marshall, VA and the only way he could control the Kudzu was with GOATS!

Bruce

There is a whole section of Warrenton covered with Kudzu.

DelawhereJoe

There is Kudzu growing just south of the town of NorthEast, MD in Elkneck st park, I just saw it the other week. Right now I have something trying to kill off my white oak trees...
WD-40, DUCT TAPE, 024, 026, 362c-m, 041, homelite xl, JD 2510

Thehardway

Just talking out my butt here and I agree about the invasive species and insects for the most part.  I have a lot of white ash on my land.  I expect it will all be gone soon.  We are plagued with stink bugs and lady bugs, both introduced by do-gooders.  We now have snake heads as well invading our watersheds.

As far as tree insects go, perhaps one of the things missing that used to be natural and beneficial is fire.  As unpleasant and destructive as fire may be it also had a cleansing effect that is now missing in large part.  Fire is seldom allowed to burn itself out at least here in the east even when caused by natural forces.  Nature has a way of balancing itself out, if you take away one way, it finds another which can often be less desirable on the surface.

The Eastern White Pine, American Chestnut, and Hemlock are pretty much all gone and were at one time the bulk of Virginia forestscapes.  Cypress in the Eastern portion of the state has taken a serious blow as well.  It was thought that Gypsy moth might get all the Oaks and they still might.  EAB will take the Ash.  Pine beetles have taken a lot of pine.  What will be next.
Norwood LM2000 24HP w/28' bed, Hudson Oscar 18" 32' bed, Woodmaster 718 planer,  Kubota L185D, Stihl 029, Husqvarna 550XP

Den Socling

When you read about the giant trees that used to be in our forest and are now gone, it's just sad. Very sad. Too late to save them. I hope we can all work together so save what's left.

Ron Wenrich

I would imagine that the demise of the white pine and hemlock forest has more to man being the invasive species.  Your area of Virginia is probably pretty similar to that of my are of Pennsylvania.  I live outside of Harrisburg, and originally there were forests of mixed hardwoods with pine and hemlock.  Hemlock, white oak, sugar maple and beech are all climax species in forest progression.

The forest we see now is not what your grandfather saw and that wasn't what his grandfather saw.  The first thing they did was to take timber for housing and barn building.  But, most of the forest went into slash and burn agriculture.  I live in the ridge and valley area, and ag lands went almost to the top of the ridges.  Many of those ridge farms have now converted back to forests. 

The next disruptor we had was in iron making.  There are a lot of old charcoal flats in my area.  I've seen them where it is even too steep for our logging equipment.  But, they used to cut everything to make charcoal.  They would make 20 year rotations.  With the introduction of coke, charcoal went by the wayside.  But, there was still heavy pressure on the woodlot to produce fuel wood for homes.

Hemlock lumber was not as valuable as hemlock bark.  The first thing they did after cutting hemlock was to spud the bark, which was used for the tannin for tanning leather. 

The way we manage forests is another reason for the demise.  There is little demand for hemlock and the white pine we have in our area.  We have gone to monoculture types of forests of single age.  We don't have many plantations in my area, but lots of areas throughout the US do have them.  When a pest gets in them, they raise havoc. 

In our area, they have had several successions of high grading.  That has left the lower value trees that are shade tolerant to take off.  Leading species now is red maple.  What management we do have is in the propagation of oak.  The selection system of choice is diameter limit cutting.  We were very fortunate to have a red oak market take off in the 1970s to offset all the red oak that was growing.  It was not a species that marketed very well until then.  Look at old furniture and you rarely see red oak.  Old houses had pine and hemlock flooring and if there was hardwood, it was maple.  We've pretty well done away with pioneer species, except where fields are abandoned.   I rarely see aspen.  It is routine to knock forests back to the secondary stage of progression to support tulip poplar and oak.  In some areas, they keep it producing cherry.

We could manage forests that go all the way out to climax, but that rotation is about 400 years.  We could go into an uneven aged system where your selection is based on tree condition and not market condition.  We've industrialized the forest. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

SwampDonkey

Most of the big old stuff here and even mature for that matter is gone due to logging. Old age for some species like fir, which dies as an entire stand around 80 years and if white birch is mixed in it dies to. And yet we had white birch in some stand types bigger around than a potato barrel. The big old 30"+ white cedar is left to stand on harvest blocks until the wind takes them down all hemlock pretty much the same and all the pine they leave is 99% the junk left over: crook, multi tops, rust killed tops. They leave old suppressed umbrella shaped fir with just sound sapwood left and think those are good future logs or pulp. Been doing is so long that it's all they know as far as I see. Driving our highways: "How come the trees are so small?" It's all been cut grasshopper. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Den Socling

Driving along the highways in central PA, you see trees by the millions. I'm always looking to see if any are big enough to harvest. I'm as bad as th bugs!  :D

WV Sawmiller

   Good points and I especially like Doc's notes about the changing nature of things. We all hate invasive species unless it is one we love. I understand the camel is an animal imported to Australia which seemed to fit the environment there (Our Aussie friends here on the forum can confirm or refute that). Nobody completely loves or hates most new things.

   There are no doubt more whitetail deer here in America today than when the settlers arrived which is great for us who like to hunt them but a nuisance for farmers being damaged by them. Bobwhite quail thrived better with small diverse farms with small woodlots and fencerows for cover and annual seeds and such than they do under large modern clean farming techniques.

   I've been doing a running battle with mulitiflora roses for 26 years this month here in WV but in all fairness - there were lots more rabbits and woodchucks on the place before I cleaned out the roses.

    My degree was Wildlife Biology. The primary thing we learned was to manage the habitat to accommodate the desired species. Re-stocking wild turkeys did no good if there was not cover, nesting sites and food sources currently available. Since habitat manipulation only for wildlife is costly in most cases we just try to achieve a happy medium - manage for trees but include a few clear cuts for nesting and annual forbs and such, etc. for quail, turkeys, deer, etc. You also have to throw in some costs just for PR.

    Like every country and place I ever lived or visited - there was some good and some bad. We hosted 7 different foreign exchange students over the years. I used to tell each of them we had good and bad things here and for them to take the good back with them and leave the bad for us to clean up.
Howard Green
WM LT35HDG25(2015) , 2011 4WD F150 Ford Lariat PU, Kawasaki 650 ATV, Stihl 440 Chainsaw, homemade logging arch (w/custom built rear log dolly), JD 750 w/4' wide Bushhog brand FEL

Dad always said "You can shear a sheep a bunch of times but you can only skin him once

pwrwagontom

I agree.  I try to use my limited resources to do battle with as many invasive a as I possibly can.  Having OK luck again Japanese Knotweed, using a rotation of spraying and repeated cutting.  Hand putting Oriental Bittersweet and Barberry before it can get too established.  But the question is, how long can this go on before they out compete the resources working against them?

As I drive across western Massachusetts, the knotweed along the riverbanks makes me sick to my stomach!
Never give an inch

Den Socling

I was looking at the bank across Pine Creek https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Creek_(Pennsylvania)
yesterday. There are no gaps in the tree cover. Anything that has has died was filled in by other species. However, the ground cover where ferns should be is all snotweed. I don't there will ever be an end to that stuff. And it was brought here as a decorative plant!  >:(

JBlain

The forest pest and pathogens are almost overwhelming.

I was out on our property last weekend with the girls and found my first mile-a-minute small patch by a large dead hemlock ironically killed by adelgid. It got the chemical treatment later that day and luckily the vine didn't have mature seeds on it yet.

I just try to fight what I can make a difference on and continually make the forest healthier and more diverse.

Anna loves looking at some of our old growth trees. No idea why they left this big straight white oak since it isn't close to a line or road.  It stands tall and wide after many harvest from 1765 until now in central PA.

 
Josh

Den Socling


JBlain

The best part of that day was when she asked me why I didn't cut that tree down yet.   Pretty perceptive for 2 years old. I told her not all trees need cut down,  when you make it that long as a tree, you deserve to live out the rest of your life in retirement....
Josh

Bill Ragosta

I hate invasives too.  I thought I'd take this opportunity to figure out the photo posting protocol for the website, by showing a photo of a large American chestnut that I just had taken down (I'm not the guy with the saw in the photo).  A few years ago, the American Chestnut Foundation sent a representative who confirmed that this tree was the second largest living confirmed tree in Pennsylvania at that point in time (the largest was sick with the blight and dying, so at one point, this tree was likely the PA king).  It recently succumbed to the blight and I had to harvest it.  Obviously it was a very sad day for me.



 

SwampDonkey

She'll make a nice log at least. Any plans? :)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Bill Ragosta

Quote from: SwampDonkey on September 09, 2016, 04:14:48 AM
She'll make a nice log at least. Any plans? :)

Kitchen table and hoosier cabinet for my wife, blanket chests for each of my sons.  It's really a shame that the tree had to succumb to the blight, but I'll always have the furniture.  Yesterday I also saw what appeared to be a healthy 14.5 incher about a quarter mile away from where the big one stood.

submarinesailor

Quote from: Den Socling on July 13, 2016, 11:47:07 PM
I just read that 95% of the Hemlocks in Shenandoah are dead.

Den - I can truly understand what you are saying about the big Hemlocks.  I grew up climbing several very large hemlocks at our Boy Scout Camp site out near Manassas.  And one of the things i really liked about my place down in Madison County was that there were several large ones on the property.  There along came the "bug", taking out all of the Hemlocks and a very large number of the locust too.

Last week end we were up on the mountain behind the house moving a couple of deer stands around and I was very surprised to find a hemlock that was about 4" at the base.  Here's hoping good things come for this one.....Is there any way to keep the adelgid out of this young tree?

Bruce

Thank You Sponsors!