Anyone Regret Installing Kiln

tgweber · July 01, 2016, 02:14:09 PM

I have almost decided that it's time to buy a kiln. I'm looking at 4000 board foot size (Nyle L200) and wondering if anyone has purchased a kiln and regretted it? I see so many reason I need a kiln but other than cost not many reasons to NOT buy. Even if you don't own a kiln I would like to hear your comments.

Glenn1 · July 01, 2016, 04:16:38 PM

I love my L53 and I wish that I had purchased an L200. Everyone who I know on this site is very happy with the decision that they made. In my opinion, you will definitely be happy that you purchased one.

longtime lurker · July 01, 2016, 05:23:05 PM

I regret following the manufacturers guidelines for chamber size/ design with ours...climate and species wise I felt sure I could do better following my gut and I was right, though obviously I had to build it and see.

Problem is it never gets shut off long enough to demolish and replace the chamber

GeneWengert-WoodDoc · July 01, 2016, 08:41:56 PM

A few thoughts

When you locate the first one, plan where you will put the second one.

You can dry all day, but you only make money when you sell the lumber. So, dry species, thicknesses, etc. that the customers want.

Always keep cash and use a bank loan for capital expenses. Cash flow can Fluctuate month to month. Overall, drying is profitable, but some months cash flow is poor, yet you need cash to buy lumber, pay electric bills, and so on.

Buy a unit like the 200 that is versatile so you can do many different drying jobs.

Attend a drying class and join a drying association. You need to learn the basics in a class rather than through trial and expensive error.

Know your costs so you will be a profit making organization.

Air dry most wood, but shed drying is better. This is so kiln cycles are short and so you can do maybe 36 loads a year with a profit of $100 per MBF or more

YellowHammer · July 02, 2016, 12:06:39 AM

Lots of people regret installing a kiln around my neck of the woods. Seems half the people who buy a sawmill eventually put in a kiln. Then they ruin a few loads for them and/or their customers and they go belly up, or use the kiln for storage. It's one of the things that keeps me in business. ;D
Make a bad cut on a saw, and you ruin two boards, but have a bad day with a kiln, and you ruin several thousand dollars worth of wood. That only happens a few times before some people give up, and decide it's not worth the financial risk.
Kiln drying can be very technical, and the folks I know who are successful, do their homework.

scsmith42 · July 03, 2016, 06:48:24 AM

Quote from: YellowHammer on July 02, 2016, 12:06:39 AM
Lots of people regret installing a kiln around my neck of the woods. Seems half the people who buy a sawmill eventually put in a kiln. Then they ruin a few loads for them and/or their customers and they go belly up, or use the kiln for storage. It's one of the things that keeps me in business. ;D
Make a bad cut on a saw, and you ruin two boards, but have a bad day with a kiln, and you ruin several thousand dollars worth of wood. That only happens a few times before some people give up, and decide it's not worth the financial risk.
Kiln drying can be very technical, and the folks I know who are successful, do their homework.

This is well stated by YH. I ruined 20K worth of lumber before I figured things out. One key piece of advice that I would share is don't try to rush things before you know what you're doing.

Depending on where you are located, you ought to consider starting with solar as they are more forgiving and cost less to operate. As you build up a demand for KD products, then add an L200.

GeneWengert-WoodDoc · July 04, 2016, 07:51:46 AM

At the top of the home page is an entry or category item that gives upcoming classes and meetings where you can learn. Well worth the small cost. We have had beginners classes this past 12 months in NY, NC, PA, IN and WI. We have had advanced classes in TN, NC, PA, KY, and soon in WI. There are one day technical meetings and tours with the kiln associations, usually 2x per year, that are in and near New Englnad, PA, WI, NC, Ohio Valley, and VA. I may have omitted a few locations for classes this past year...I do not know all of them. Of course, you can hire a personal consultant for a few days at $3000, which could be cheaper than ruining a load or two.

I have heard that NYLE has sold well over 7000 kiln systems, but there might be only 1000 solar kilns, so many people go right into the DH kilns as a first kiln. And most do so well with their first kiln that they soon need to put in a second one to handle the business.

Den Socling · July 04, 2016, 08:08:21 PM

This makes me darn glad that we can watch new customers closely. It cost money for the technology but it's great that we can check customer's kilns a couple times a day. A vac kiln can dry very fast but they could also destroy a load very fast.

bkaimwood · July 04, 2016, 08:48:43 PM

To me a kiln is like a planer... wish I would have put one in sooner!!! They are indeed, huge money makers...as well as, big learning curves...an uneducated, antsy kiln operator is the worst kind, and I suspect, most of us are that in the beginning. The key is to get through it, or have great company support like Den has mentioned....it's one of the reasons one of his kilns is now officially in my business plan...

Den Socling · July 04, 2016, 09:57:11 PM

I'm in Phoenix but I checked my kilns today and will shut one down tomorrow. Besides my kilns, I checked four customers. Technology is wonderful!
I did, though, have to ask Garrett to open my kiln and let it cool. Can't quite do everything from here!

GeneWengert-WoodDoc · July 05, 2016, 07:59:50 AM

It is probably a safe to say that practically every kiln benefits from having a really good control system. And now with Blue Tooth and WiFi, remote and wireless connections are becoming popular. In fact, Lignomat makes remote wireless probes for measuring temperature and humidity. The issue is cost...for small kilns they are quite expensive compared to the wired sensors. Both are very accurate and both do the same quality job. So, why spend the extra money if the benefit is small with a slow conventional kiln?

There are also kiln controls for conventional kilns that allow remote control. The first one I saw was by Lignomat about 25 years ago. The initial justification was that technicians from Lignomat could log into the kiln control when there were operational issues and help resolve them, especially becuase electronics were not as reliable back then. The second selling point is that the controls would allow the operator to view the status of several kilns on weekends from home without having to come into work. Initially the cost was quite high, so only larger facilities could afford them. Now, all major kiln manufacturing companies have their own version of these remote controls. We do not see them with DH kilns, as the cost would be more than most people would want to spend...a DH kiln is a fairly cheap capital investment, so adding $10K for fancy controls is not attractive to most. The price also goes down when there are more kilns at one sight, as one cpu (and software), which is the expensive part, is needed for multiple kilns or a single kiln.

So, the question on a conventional kiln including DH is "What is the benefit with remote controls?" There is very little time or quality savings, as the schedule is slow compared to Den's system. So saving a hour or two overall is not worth it conventionally. Conventional kilns do not need a prompt change in conditions to dry lumber. The most controls will function accurately at the slow kiln dryng rate without remote control. The main advantage is that remote monitoring, along with automatic error analysis, allow the operator to make sure that a serious error has not occurred. The more kilns, the greater the chance that something might go wrong. Also, at the end of drying, the kiln can go to equalizing or stress relief with the needed human oversight remotely.

All these statements are basically for hardwood kilns and a few softwood kilns. However, every southern pine kiln, which can dry lumber in less than a day from green to under 20% MC, does indeed have a remote control system (or will have an operator on duty 24/7) as drying time and drying conditions do critically affect quality. In addition to kiln conditions, with fast drying kilns, there are also multiple techniques to determine when the kiln needs to be shut off at the correct final MC. In a large kiln, drying an extra hour or turning a kiln off an hour too soon can cost $1000 or more, so the cost of the control system is worth it.

Den Socling · July 05, 2016, 02:47:21 PM

Gene, Parts for data logging and remote control currently cost us about $3000. This is just for parts and nothing for the smarts. In other words, costs are coming down and could be justified for just about anything other than solar kilns. Even bigger DH kilns might use data logging. For example, a few minutes ago, a studio in NYC contacted me about drying some 10.5" thick American Elm. They said I dried some for them back in 2014. So I can look at the computer logs and see exactly what I did back then. And it's hard to put a value on being able to check a kiln from home. I wonder if KilnDirect or anybody sells low cost systems.

GeneWengert-WoodDoc · July 05, 2016, 11:45:52 PM

Sensors, wires, mounting hardware, the cpu and maybe signal boosters all cost money and then there is the labor for installation, plus profit. Cheap units have to cut quality somewhere or have only a small profit.